***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[osh kosh bosh]

AOC was on twitter arguing with people about whether men can be pregnant.
it doesn't matter if democrats haven't put "men and women can be pregnant" in their party platform,

she said it, and the 24'7 propaganda machine Fox News is weaponizing this to damage the democratic brand and make them appear culturally distant.

the damage is done.

one more thing confirming to red state swing voter that democrats
are out of touch cultural elites obsessed with Avant Garde racial and gender politics.

 

[RustyShackleford]

AOC was on twitter arguing with people about whether men can be pregnant.
it doesn't matter if democrats haven't put "men and women can be pregnant" in their party platform,

she said it, and the 24'7 propaganda machine Fox News is weaponizing this to damage the democratic brand and make them appear culturally distant.

the damage is done.

one more thing confirming to red state swing voter that democrats
are out of touch cultural elites obsessed with Avant Garde racial and gender politics.

So your grievance is that a political party with a diverse background is supposed to find a way to police everything their members say 100% of the time. Do you stop and think how ridiculous that demand is?

Because once second you will complain about Cori Bush and AOC, act like your grievances is just with people like them, then the next second you expand their criticism to people that don't engage in the behavior you complain about.

-Also white red-state swing voters have been moving away from the party since the 90s. The party was filled what dog-whistling centrists that appeal to the grievances of white people and backed it up with policy. On criminal justice, immigration, and welfare.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

So your grievance is that a political party with a diverse background is supposed to find a way to police everything their members say 100% of the time. Do you stop and think how ridiculous that demand is?

Because once second you will complain about Cori Bush and AOC, act like your grievances is just with people like them, then the next second you expand their criticism to people that don't engage in the behavior you complain about.

-Also white red-state swing voters have been moving away from the party since the 90s. The party was filled what dog-whistling centrists that appeal to the grievances of white people and backed it up with policy. On criminal justice, immigration, and welfare.

Progressives should be disciplined and act responsibly. Call me crazy.

The stakes are incredibly high and the odds are stacked against the Dems.

I'll trade dog whistles for legislation any day.


I don't think you need to lose Ohio forever.

If a democrat dog whistles his way to the Senate and votes to kill the fillbuster it will all be worth it to me.

 

[RustyShackleford]

yah ultimately my perception of this and yours is way way different.


The backlash has hurt the national party. and defund the police absolutely has made common sense reform more difficult.

like ive said a million matter it doesn't matter if democrats didn't put it in their party platform or formally run on it.
and it doesn't matter that activists weren't always calling for defund the police.

you had prominent progressives supporting it and many moderate to liberal dems being not actively and aggressively denouncing it.
the damage is done.
Now going forward, you will never be able to forward any accountability measure no matter how meager without being accused of wanting to "defund the police"


and yes im holding the democrats to very high standards, because the republicans have fox news and the democrats don't.

Yes, it is way different, I think you are overly reactionary and you won't admit it so you constantly recalibrate your argument to act as you care most about reform when you really mainly just care about the sensibilities of regressive white people.

You are literally making claims you don't have any data points for. Just lofty claims about how the damage is done, it is progressives fault, ignoring everything that gets in the way of your claim. Moving the goalpost where necessary/

You are holding Democrats to a ridiculous standard. And seems like you know you can't admit that because you know it will undercut your whining and complaining about defunding the police

After decades of not getting the reforms through before defunding the police came along, not pushing back on defunding the police is the thing that is gonna stop reforms from happening.

Yeah, ok Osh, sure.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Progressives should be disciplined and act responsibly. Call me crazy.

The stakes are incredibly high and the odds are stacked against the Dems.

I'll trade dog whistles for legislation any day.


I don't think you need to lose Ohio forever.

If a democrat dog whistles his way to the Senate and votes to kill the fillbuster it will all be worth it to me.

most progressive do, by a wife majority. But you keep using fringe examples to make takes about most progressives on some Bill Maher ****.

Excuse me, what legislation? Kill the Filibustttttt what?

Tell me what legislation centrist and conservative-leaning Dems have pushed through to help black people recently?

Please, I need educating about the country I live in

Your entire argument is seemingly blaming progressives (a couple is enough to paint hundreds the same way) from keeping a politician that doesn't exist, and has not existed ever as far as I can tell, from coming into power and saving the day

Yeah, sounds a little crazy to me

Sounds like you are pulling stuff out of your *** and then complaining if people don't like the smell

 

[elpablo21]

Looking forward to Ben Garrison's next masterpiece

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Yes, it is way different, I think you are overly reactionary and you won't admit it so you constantly recalibrate your argument to act as you care most about reform when you really mainly just care about the sensibilities of regressive white people.

You are literally making claims you don't have any data points for. Just lofty claims about how the damage is done, it is progressives fault, ignoring everything that gets in the way of your claim. Moving the goalpost where necessary/

You are holding Democrats to a ridiculous standard. And seems like you know you can't admit that because you know it will undercut your whining and complaining about defunding the police

After decades of not getting the reforms through before defunding the police came along, not pushing back on defunding the police is the thing that is gonna stop reforms from happening.

Yeah, ok Osh, sure.

well I think you are in complete and total denial about the situation democrats are in.
and you would rather be mad at centrists and moderates rather than confront the obvious deficiencies of the progressive movement.

you constantly do this strange ostrich routine, where you act like as long as someone doesn't say "I Mr. Democrat am running on "insert unpopular idea"
it has had zero impact on the democratic parties brand.

you can look at david shor's work on this if you want data

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/03/david-shor-2020-democrats-autopsy-hispanic-vote-midterms-trump-gop.html

. But my organization, and our partner organizations, have done extensive post-election surveys of 2020 voters. And we looked specifically at those voters who switched from supporting Hillary Clinton in 2016 to Donald Trump in 2020 to see whether anything distinguishes this subgroup in terms of their policy opinions. What we found is that Clinton voters with conservative views on crime, policing, and public safety were far more likely to switch to Trump than voters with less conservative views on those issues. And having conservative views on those issues was more predictive of switching from Clinton to Trump than having conservative views on any other issue-set was.

and yes after decades of not getting the reforms you want you can do things further to decrease the chances of reform.

but like i've been saying, lose ohio forever then.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Part of the reasons we don't have smart red state senators who are committed to expanding power of the democratic party,

Is because democrats have created this ecosystem
where they can fool themselves about the popularity of their cultural politics.


Beto O'roke in his campaign against Ted Cruz should have found obvious wedge issue to distinguish himself from democrats,
instead he ran as a regular democrat and lost against the most unpopular senator in America.

and then he ran a presidential campaign centered around gun control, severely wounding his chances at winning state wide in Texas in the future.


imo It takes a deep and pervasive level of confusion about the electorate to make those decisions

 

[RustyShackleford]

well I think you are in complete and total denial about the situation democrats are in.
and you would rather be mad at centrists and moderates rather than confront the obvious deficiencies of the progressive movement.

you constantly do this strange ostrich routine, where you act like as long as someone doesn't say "I Mr. Democrat am running on "insert unpopular idea"
it has had zero impact on the democratic parties brand.

you can look at david shor's work on this if you want data

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/03/david-shor-2020-democrats-autopsy-hispanic-vote-midterms-trump-gop.html

and yes after decades of not getting the reforms you want you can do things further to decrease the chances of reform.

but like i've been saying, lose ohio forever then.

What the **** are you even talking about

I know the situation the Dems are in, that is partly what motivates a lot of my anger at centrist. I just think your plan has holes in it too, it is stupid in some places, and you can't defend it without moving the goalpost over all the damn place.

All you claim is that if the Dems just pull off something never done in political history. Just get dog-whistling racists in power, they will go against history and kill the filibuster and pass tons of great legislation, instead of doing their usual nonsense. David Shor's data doesn't back up your point, I am sure you think it does, but as usual, you are just implicitly handwaving a ton of **** to argue this.

I am supposed to forget everything I read, everything I have seen doing work in local politics, everything that happened in the 90s to just fully accept your flimsy plan that has tons of holes in it

And if I don't, it is my head in the sand.

Dude, I am well aware of the right-wing propaganda machine, and the effects it had on people. That doesn't make your argument principled. The fact remains most progressive didn't do what you accuse them of. Me calling out your constant bait and switch is not having my head in the sand. But of course Osh, only you are operating from a place of reason

Yeah, please, spare me.

You sound ****ing ridiculous sometimes. Not because I disagree with you, but because you refuse to grapple with your ideas in an intellectually honest way. Like your whole plan to win Ohio is to run a campaign way different than the last two Dems that have won Ohio in the last 10 years. But someone mentions this, they must be confused or in denial. All I am doing is giving your plans the same level of inspection you give to things leftist do to that piss you off. That is it. Whatever strawman you have constructed in your head about my position is wrong.

Your *** will demand the Dems to drop all the cultural appeals and focus on delivering material gains for people. But I am wrong to be pissed at the people standing in the way right now from the party delivering that. Yeah, I'll be mad at the people that protect the ****ed up status quo instead of using their power. I am mad about that because I, my family, and my friends have to live in this country, you don't.

Like wavycrocket said, this **** is a game to you so excuse me if I don't stand back in awe that the half-baked plans that don't have data points for, that you can't even defend much of the time, and constantly recalibrate, and make reaches, to hide the problems with it.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Part of the reasons we don't have smart red state senators who are committed to expanding power of the democratic party,

Is because democrats have created this ecosystem
where they can fool themselves about the popularity of their cultural politics.


Beto O'roke in his campaign against Ted Cruz should have found obvious wedge issue to distinguish himself from democrats,
instead he ran as a regular democrat and lost against the most unpopular senator in America.

and then he ran a presidential campaign centered around gun control, severely wounding his chances at winning state wide in Texas in the future.


imo It takes a deep and pervasive level of confusion about the electorate to make those decisions

Explain why the Dems lost red states in the 90s

Because seemingly in Osh's world, things only started going bad once progressive politics gained salience in the party

So explain to me why red-state voters thought dog-whistling, crime bill passing, welfare cutting, immigration fear-mongering Bill Clinton was becoming too PC

I'd love to hear it

-BTW, Cruz beat Trump in Texas. By like over 17 points

Cruz's approval rating was positive when the 2018 election happened.

And Beto didn't run primarily on gun control as president. His stance on guns was pretty vanilla. He took an unpopular gun control stance after his hometown was shot up. The first time he tried to talk about the shooting he broke down crying.

But yeah, don't let what actually happened to get in the way of your data point

 

[RustyShackleford]

rexanglorum would you agree with the claim that I have ignored the deficiencies of progressive politics in this thread?

dacomeup could you weigh in too, did I do that?

Because for some reason, I remember myself constantly calling into question to politics of leftist and other far-left political movements

Maybe I am mistaken, I dunno

Because it is wild to me that if I push back on Osh's ideas, or get pissed at ****ty centrist, that somehow crowds out everything else I have said for the past 6 years.

But again, don't let observable reality get in the ay of your take osh kosh bosh

 

[IATT]

 

[Nike Jordan]

 

[RustyShackleford]

In a perfect world, invoking John McCain's name would be seen as a massive negative

 

[RustyShackleford]

This is the positive news for Dems...

 

[RustyShackleford]

After looking at that TX gerrymander, what is left of American democracy must be like...

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

 

[RustyShackleford]

Somehow I am sure this is AOC's fault.

 

[IATT]

 

[gry60]

If a democrat dog whistles his way to the Senate and votes to kill the fillbuster it will all be worth it to me.

If a Democrat dog whistles his way to the Senate, he probably believes in some of the stuff he's dog whistling about, and the chances of him killing the filibuster will be very low.

I mean, look at Manchin...

 

[had pants]

 

[gry60]

Smart people.

 

[RustyShackleford]

If a Democrat dog whistles his way to the Senate, he probably believes in some of the stuff he's dog whistling about, and the chances of him killing the filibuster will be very low.

I mean, look at Manchin...

There is a lot of issues with his argument but this might be the biggest one.

He basically criticizes people for not supporting and undermining, a strategy he swears might deliver enough votes in the Senate to pass sweeping legislation

Yet, part of his plan is electing a type of politician that really doesn't exist

 

[gry60]

Is because democrats have created this ecosystem
where they can fool themselves about the popularity of their cultural politics.

LOL.

That's a wild take.

First, the Venn diagram of cultural issues, economic issues, and social issues is not three separate circles. All these aspects are interconnected in ways that can't be easily separated.

Second, Democratic policies are popular. Democratic politicians are not.

Yet, part of his plan is electing a type of politician that really doesn't exist

This.
Regardless of the political affiliation of the American voter, the one thing that matters the most to them is authenticity. Because of that, no one that lasts in Congress can behave like Sinema (who ran on a progressive platform, only to turn into an unapologetic PITA for the Democratic agenda after she was sworn in). None of these politicians can expect to stick around if their main act is to be a DINO/RINO. They have to believe some of the stuff they're saying.