***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[rolaholic]

This is a continued trend in western democracies that will likely continue next year...

Incumbents haven't been spared no matter the ideological lean of the party in power.

 

[elpablo21]

Yea this can’t be the answer either you’re right. At a certain point they gotta own some responsibility to keep the main thing the main thing and not let some annoyances be a good excuse to do nothing or be apathetic.

Yeah it's like at some point you're winning again but what does the party look like and does it even line up with my values.

I don't think it gets to that extreme but I can't just assume and act like I can predict the landscape of this place either. On top of there just being a million other factors that led to this point so I also don't want to completely hone in this either as being the main factor when we know things like inflation (no matter how misinformed the opinion was on it) was an important.

Everything is fresh so it probably is best at least for me to take a step back and see how the reset goes when more and more information continues to drop about the results.

Stepping away from following stuff is probably a great health choice at this moment for me

 

[staffsgtdignam]

How much of this is based on the perception of the Democratic platform vs the reality of the platform? Remember that perception is not only shaped by the party; it's also shaped by those who oppose it. When you look at the progressive parts of the Biden agenda, they had mostly to do with jobs and protecting rights, and little to do with granular culture war issues.

It is the Right that has been fixated on pushing the narrative that Democrats want to turn everyone into a trans person, and you're denying them their propaganda victory by blaming the Democratic messaging.

I don't think Dems aer ever winning the culture wars battle against MAGA however the general election is winning by addition so pulling progressives and moderate Dems (especially ones int he suburbs) into your tent is key to winning that election. Kamala was already crippled by running a 90 day campaign but the fact that less people came out to vote for her than the did for Biden shows that voter coalition was simply not built. Do I think Biden would have done better this time around? No, becuase he was still a deeply unpopular President, at the end of the day.

I think if he announced two years ago that he wasn't running, Dems would have had time to run actual primary elections and nominate a candidate who would be better suited to run against Trump. Obviously, this doesn't mean they would win but they would absolutely have done much better than Kamala did with her 90 day campaign.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The tax funded gender affirmation for inmates literally began under Trump

This is like when republicans say "WELL actually Obama was the deporter in chief"

No swing voter thinks Donald Trump is excessively concerned with trans issues. Just like no swing voter thinks Obama was to target immigrants.

The fact it started with him is a funny detail but nobody believes he is a supporter of it...

they belive it about Harris because the dem aligned media has been on about this **** a decade

and

HARRIS LITERALLY AFFIRMATIVELY CAMPAIGNED ON IT 2019

Under Trump, U.S. Prisons Offered Gender-Affirming Care

The Trump administration’s approach is notable in light of a campaign ad that slams Vice President Kamala Harris for supporting taxpayer-funded transgender surgeries for prisoners and migrants.

www.nytimes.com

Nice personal letterheads from Liz but where is the actual policy centered around imposing 'latinx' on anyone?

this is my problem, any criticism of progressives, the bar for evidence gets raised to impossible levels.

Dem party messaging always used Latinx instead of Latino/Latino for a few years. One of the Major front runner Liz Warren ALWAYS used it. Dem aligned media institutions used it.

We have study showing it lost Democrats votes.

but its still not enough proof?

The California bill on not needing to notify parents on their child's pronouns/name isn't some outrageous extremist thing to me I'm sorry . Looking into it, sounds like a measure taken to safeguard kids from potential identity based retribution at home.

the implication of the law is you can't require schools to inform parents if they want to social transition.


you are basically defending facilitating and hiding social transition from parents.


THIS IS POLITICAL POISON DEMOCRATS SHOULD NOT DEFEND THIS.

 

[Armada]

Agree with all of this.

The thing is, progressives hated Biden over Gaza so any/all of his progressive policy victories were basically swept under the rug because of it.

Tbh I don’t think this had much to do with Gaza when it comes to not giving Biden credit. Using people I know as a example in more progressive circles years before that if I mentioned something the Biden administration was doing that was great policy it was meet with “it won’t work, it don’t matter, they won’t enforce it”. It didn’t matter what happened they were never gonna give him credit cause they just don’t like him. If it’s not one reason it would be something else.

 

[Public Enemy]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

so, out of all of the progressive policies I talk about — you mention a trans prison ad that was irrelevant to any economic policy put forth by Biden or Kamala?

the ad plays on both it is both an add about cultural overreach,.
AND an ad about Dems spending money on groups americans think of as on deserving.

it is both an attack on economic and cultural leftism,

People absolutely vote on not wanting money that they feel should be going towards the country going towards wars instead. The rise of populism here has led people to not want to be in wars. Partly why Bush ended up so unpopular, and Trump ran the first time on ending forever wars. Wars aren’t popular. There’s a reason why Warhawks are on the fringes now

a war that america is in vs a war our allies are in his different. aside from some small number of Palestinians nobody is basing their vote on Gaza or Ukraine. certainly not enough to change the result.nobody cared about the war in yemen we funded in 2020 or Libya in 2012.

You say all this and then you make a distinction between some of the more cultural progressivism and actual progressive policies in the next post . I’m clearing making an argument for the progressive policies, which you understand. Like I said, Biden and Kamala lost against inflation and being able to message the wins on the economy based on their progressive policies because people still felt the pressure of high groceries and gas.

I think you're underestimating progressive policies impact on inflation and the perception of inflation.

The idea that Biden should prioritize jobs over inflation, that we shoot "overshoot" the recovery spending over undershoot.

this is all progressive economic policy ideas (that i agreed with) that turned out to be wrong politically.


You’re doing the thing again.

I list out a whole bevy of issues and this is what I’m blaming it on There’s a multitude of issues that lost the Dems the election and losing in connecting via the SM space, where most people consume content these days is a big problem. The whole party deserves blame. They failed. They clung to cultural issues that a lot of the electorate don’t care about or even were turned off by. But policies that improve housing affordability, financial stability, wages going up, etc are still popular. Moderating the message on that is not the answer.

Your primary battle in this thread is always against cultural progressivism, to the point where you feel the need to divert the conversation to that when that’s not the topic. Yes, white people don’t like to be called racist. They haven’t for hundreds of years at this point. Latinos, Carribeans, Arabs and African immigrants seem to skew even more culturally conservative, and have a desire for proximity to whiteness that’s counter to the general Black American experience in this country. It’s something that the party will have to figure out, but I’m not in agreement that the answer is more moderate economic policy.

I think most of the economic policy is fine, but I think progressives belief that we should overshoot on stimulus, prioritize jobs over inflation.

I think that's clearly wrong, and needs to be moderated.


I was wrong, people care more about inflation than I thought, I think progressive need absorb that fact policy wise as well.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The main policy that needs moderation,
Is jobs vs inflation trade off.



people clearly really really really really hate inflation.


and it doesn't matter how low unemployment is, people won't be happy.

 

[1995]

How many states have passed a "Parental Bill of Rights"?

 

[dacomeup]

Yep, fire everybody at the top. Leadership

remember guys! the true socialism has never been tried! never moderate, keep going left!!!

this is comical. Trump just won on policies that are undoubtedly worse for inflation. But since people perceive that it will be better for them, he was thought by voters to be better on the economy. This makes no sense.

 

[WASHED KING]

The main policy that needs moderation,
Is jobs vs inflation trade off.



people clearly really really really really hate inflation.


and it doesn't matter how low unemployment is, people won't be happy.

Inflation numbers are good now, the Fed has just about hit their 2% target. The issue is high prices. Prices aren't increasing at the rapid pace they were in the previous years but prices are still high so it doesn't matter.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Yep, fire everybody at the top. Leadership

this is comical. Trump just won on policies that are undoubtedly worse for inflation. But since people perceive that it will be better for them, he was thought by voters to be better on the economy. This makes no sense.

Obviously I agree donald Trumps policies will be worse for inflation, but most voters don't know that...


imo people thought that the Dems weren't serious enough about inflation.
That's why the Kamala is for "they them" works for them.

it combines cultural out of touchness, with over spending, with not being serious about economic issues. its both a cultural argument and an economic one.

if trump does the tariffs and inflation explodes again, there will be a massive backlash.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Inflation numbers are good now, the Fed has just about hit their 2% target. The issue is high prices. Prices aren't increasing at the rapid pace they were in the previous years but prices are still high so it doesn't matter.

people are dumb and don't understand how inflation works.

thats why its so difficult politically. you can "fix" it but prices will never go back to where they were so people will still be mad.

 

[biggie62]

Inflation numbers are good now, the Fed has just about hit their 2% target. The issue is high prices. Prices aren't increasing at the rapid pace they were in the previous years but prices are still high so it doesn't matter.

Sad part is relative to inflation real wages are higher since January 2020 but people don’t care. But yea people are crying about prices even though most have more money in their pockets anyway.

 

[aepps20]

These conversations are good and very healthy. I think the truth lies somewhere in between. People across the globe have been struggling post pandemic and want change. They can’t articulate what they want other than that they want better than what they have. Where guys like Trump are effective is that they break down your problems by othering people and proposing draconian fixes that probably won’t work. When you factor in their higher floor and the fact that no matter what they do their supporters will support them, the othering helps peel off just enough people on our side to get them the win. Dems have to improve their messaging but we have a big coalition that demands results while Trump voters don’t expect results and those that do will likely come back to us in 2026.


On the whether Joe should’ve made a decision not to run for a second term at the beginning? I think he should’ve but I also think that many on our side (Not NTers) didn’t think Trump would run again or that the judicial process would hold him accountable. Joe was the right person to run against Trump the first time because he is an old white guy from blue collar America that makes them feel safe enough to vote for our side without changing things too much. Joe implemented many progressive policies that brought inflation down and got our economy in a much better position than it was during the pandemic. Classic perception vs reality where a person’s perception is all that matters. I don’t blame Joe for thinking that he was the only one who could beat Trump, it’s just frustrating that our side wanted a different candidate, we did that and folks on our side still didn’t show up.

Lastly, this is going to be a PIPING HWAT TAKE but as great and transformational as Obama’s presidency was, I sometimes wonder if we are in the current political climate if he wasn’t president?

 

[wayniac211]

you guys have such a low opinion of your fellow americans.

More like the limo liberals don't think too highly of the progressive working class

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

people are dumb and don't understand how inflation works.

Can’t win votes insulting voters!

 

[biggie62]

These conversations are good and very healthy. I think the truth lies somewhere in between. People across the globe have been struggling post pandemic and want change. They can’t articulate what they want other than that they want better than what they have. Where guys like Trump are effective is that they break down your problems by othering people and proposing draconian fixes that probably won’t work. When you factor in their higher floor and the fact that no matter what they do their supporters will support them, the othering helps peel off just enough people on our side to get them the win. Dems have to improve their messaging but we have a big coalition that demands results while Trump voters don’t expect results and those that do will likely come back to us in 2026.


On the whether Joe should’ve made a decision not to run for a second term at the beginning? I think he should’ve but I also think that many on our side (Not NTers) didn’t think Trump would run again or that the judicial process would hold him accountable. Joe was the right person to run against Trump the first time because he is an old white guy from blue collar America that makes them feel safe enough to vote for our side without changing things too much. Joe implemented many progressive policies that brought inflation down and got our economy in a much better position than it was during the pandemic. Classic perception vs reality where a person’s perception is all that matters. I don’t blame Joe for thinking that he was the only one who could beat Trump, it’s just frustrating that our side wanted a different candidate, we did that and folks on our side still didn’t show up.

Lastly, this is going to be a PIPING HWAT TAKE but as great and transformational as Obama’s presidency was, I sometimes wonder if we are in the current political climate if he wasn’t president?

On your last point he did spur the tea party movement, Trump and his birthism takes. So on one side you’re right. But the republicans have been moving further right regardless. Newt Gringich made sure of that in the 90s by not being willing to negotiate anymore.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Lastly, this is going to be a PIPING HWAT TAKE but as great and transformational as Obama’s presidency was, I sometimes wonder if we are in the current political climate if he wasn’t president?

The education polarization has happened across the globe.

The media and culture would be in a similar place but no Obamacare and people still dying because they have a pre existing condition.

Obama still the goat.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Can’t win votes insulting voters!

100% that's why I'm saying you gotta hyper focus on inflation in your messaging.

People won't be happy with child text credit, or low unemployment, or any progressive policy.


You gotta look like you are hyper focused on inflation and prices.

 

[Armada]

Lastly, this is going to be a PIPING HWAT TAKE but as great and transformational as Obama’s presidency was, I sometimes wonder if we are in the current political climate if he wasn’t president?

I talked about this with my wife the other day and a part of me thinks we wouldn’t be. Trump and everything maga is a response to 8 years of Obama, trump made his political name off Obama with the birther BS. I don’t even think we here right now if it was only 4 years of Obama. It’s sad and no fault of his own but this country has proved not only was it not ready for a black president but it would be extremely resentful that he was successful (defining that as winning reelection) and they gonna make as many people suffer because of it.

but it’s not all on him and I don’t blame him at all and I’m glad he did what he did. republicans were trending more and more right no matter what. Maybe it accelerated their extremism but they were going their regardless.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The real historical counterfactual if what if Obama anoints Joe Biden as his successor in 2016.


Hilary moving to the left on culture to beat Bernie accelerated the the dems problems with working class voters.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

this type of cope is so frustrating.

they will do ANYTHING to avoid acknowledging the fact the HR department content doesn't work with young men.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

young men like edgy humour????

noooo
the right wing billionaires have clearly brainwashed them!

 

[Cashflow]