***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[sundoobie]

Bill Clinton war crimes?

Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 signed by Billy which basically gave the US the powers it needed to declare a war there.

"should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."

 

[the red model]

Maybe I should rephrase.

Yall still trying to make these e-mails important to the American ppl or hold any bearing on her being president and the future of America.

America been part of assassinations, coups, insurgencies, etc. since it's independence. There's nothing criminal here so what we talking about? So she played a role in getting Gaddafi killed. SO? And? We out here using drones to kill terrorists and blowing up entire families in the process. Destabilizing a country's leadership for w/e reason (which are mainly for American interests) is apart of the job. That's part of the power in our country's position. So unless the American ppl as a whole want to go back to the policy of Isolationism that's not going to change.

Damn. I think this type of thinking is problematic and the reason why I care about foreign policy. Isolation v. killing thousands/millions of people overseas is a false choice. We can never be isolated. What can we do? I don't know but if China or Russia were doing the same thing to countries around the world at the same rate the US is we'd have a big problem with that. Ie: Ukraine.

Hillary's emails show that she supported a coup in Honduras. This coup is responsible for assassinating ENVIRONMENTALIST Leaders in Honduras. This isn't for the benefit of 99% of Americans. This is for the sole benefit of corporations that don't care about their impact on the environment. 

These same corporations will sell you fresh public water in Michigan, while your local government provides you with contaminated public water which you've also paid for.

I understand it won't impact who anyone is for or against. I think its worth having a nuanced discussion about it though.

 

[Master Zik]

Bill Clinton war crimes?

Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 signed by Billy which basically gave the US the powers it needed to declare a war there.

"should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."

But during Clinton's presidency he didn't use any of that to invade Iraq or kill Sadaam or replace the regime or destabilize the region.

Bush used the fear of terrorism, Al Queda, 9/11, and alleged WMDs in Iraq to start that war.

So what are you saying here about war crimes and Bill Clinton? What war crimes.

At best you're saying Bill said something, signed an act and Bush repeated some of that same stuff with added false info and lies to actually start the war in Iraq.

Why shouldn't Bush be blamed for actually doing what Clinton only talked about?

 

[Master Zik]

Maybe I should rephrase.


Yall still trying to make these e-mails important to the American ppl or hold any bearing on her being president and the future of America.


America been part of assassinations, coups, insurgencies, etc. since it's independence. There's nothing criminal here so what we talking about? So she played a role in getting Gaddafi killed. SO? And? We out here using drones to kill terrorists and blowing up entire families in the process. Destabilizing a country's leadership for w/e reason (which are mainly for American interests) is apart of the job. That's part of the power in our country's position. So unless the American ppl as a whole want to go back to the policy of Isolationism that's not going to change.

Damn. I think this type of thinking is problematic and the reason why I care about foreign policy. Isolation v. killing thousands/millions of people overseas is a false choice.

It's not the only choice.

It's just America hasn't ever attempted not to be the #1 world leader in all areas especially when it comes to being the world police/authority. It's a pattern we haven't broken out of since WWI and once we never looked back on after WWII and the start of the Cold War. Can't be isolated like we want go about out business the way we want so now we directly or indirectly govern over other countries when it comes to diplomacy and security.

That's just the facts.

We can never be isolated. What can we do? I don't know but if China or Russia were doing the same thing to countries around the world at the same rate the US is we'd have a big problem with that. Ie: Ukraine.

There isn't a candidate now or in the past that's provided a practical alternative.

We support are allies, which at times leads to putting other groups in control who end up ruling in ways we don't agree with policy wise and they then end up being our enemies, we take them down empower another group and a decade down the line the same thing happens. That's just on policy before we get in to special interests and who else is involved with regime changes and coups.

Hillary's emails show that she supported a coup in Honduras. This coup is responsible for assassinating ENVIRONMENTALIST Leaders in Honduras. This isn't for the benefit of 99% of Americans. This is for the sole benefit of corporations that don't care about their impact on the environment. 

IMO, you'd have to show Hilary supported that assassination. I mean how is this different than what went on in Nicaragua? There's regime change and then there's killing off those in charge not based on policies but on the special interests of corporations.

These same corporations will sell you fresh public water in Michigan, while your local government provides you with contaminated public water which you've also paid for.

I understand it won't impact who anyone is for or against. I think its worth having a nuanced discussion about it though.

I'm not opposed to the discussion but I think it's just an act of spinning your wheels to pretend this is a critical subject in regards to Hilary running for president. I'm also seeing less importance in calling her a war criminal.

This aint like countries with policies opposed to America's with not much societal outcry are having their leaders assassinated and being destabilized with nothing behind it.

 

[ben roethlisberger]

Maybe I should rephrase.

Yall still trying to make these e-mails important to the American ppl or hold any bearing on her being president and the future of America.

America been part of assassinations, coups, insurgencies, etc. since it's independence. There's nothing criminal here so what we talking about? So she played a role in getting Gaddafi killed. SO? And? We out here using drones to kill terrorists and blowing up entire families in the process. Destabilizing a country's leadership for w/e reason (which are mainly for American interests) is apart of the job. That's part of the power in our country's position. So unless the American ppl as a whole want to go back to the policy of Isolationism that's not going to change.

So because imperialism is just the American way, we should just accept it and overlook the people committing these war crimes? That's pure ignorance and that type of thinking is a huge part of the problem, if not the biggest problem.

Patriotism and Nationalism, those infectious diseases, are also the reason why Government and Politicians get away with war crimes. People have dim-wittingly allowed their government to condition them into this us vs them mentality. And that "America is doing the right thing because they are keeping us safe" belief. Meanwhile, millions of innocent people have died in the middle east. Thousands in Africa. But it's okay because that's not happening to "us". I'm sorry, but that's beyond moronic.

As for Hilary's war crimes, here you go:

Unconstitutional attack on Libya to overthrow Gaddafi:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-fein/hillary-clinton-unfit-for_b_8313372.html
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/an...ed-Her-Way-to-War-in-Libya-20160318-0008.html
http://www.mintpressnews.com/wikile...e-gadhafi-france-uk-fought-libyas-oil/215104/


Her link to the bombing of civilians in illegal wars in Yemen:

https://theintercept.com/2016/02/22/saudi-christmas-present/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/medea-benjamin/hillary-clinton-saudi-arabia_b_9374490.html

Benghazi scandal:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...on-is-guilty-but-not-as-charged-a6707711.html
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/06/17/hillary-benghazi-criminal/

Honduras Scandal:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-weisbrot/hillary-clinton-needs-to_b_9680642.html

Iraq war vote, Russian reset, etc etc.

It's clear that Hillary wants to go to war for her financial backers. I'm not just for locking Hillary up, I'm for locking up the CEO's and legislators who help this endless military agenda get accomplished as well.


http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Clinton-Tops-List-of-Arms-Company-Donations-20151214-0002.html
http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ton-bernie-sanders-republican-ted-cruz-213783
http://www.ibtimes.com/clinton-foun...als-hillary-clintons-state-department-1934187
https://www.rt.com/usa/326058-defense-donors-clinton-cruz/
https://www.publicintegrity.org/201...tor-employees-give-most-money-hillary-clinton

 

[ben roethlisberger]

Man, you're main point is that this is just business as usual for America and that it has been going on before Hilary and will continue after Hilary. Which is true. She is just a huge asset for the Military Industrial Complex.

But it sounds like you're saying that this is okay and nothing should be done about it. Or maybe you're saying that theres nothing that can be done about it?

I really don't see your point. Hillary and the rest of them should be locked up and war profittering should be made illegal.

And this only happens with extreme public pressure. Which you seem to be against.

 

[RustyShackleford]

My definition of what is a war crime must be off.

 

[ben roethlisberger]

Don't ignore Libya and Benghazi pugnacious little fellow.

Her vote for Iraq is a war crime because she financially benefited from Exxon and J.P. Morgan for an illegal war. She showed a conflict of interests while holding a high seat in office. That's a ******* war crime.

I didn't mean to put the Russian reset in there.That was a C&P mistake.

 

[ninjahood]

So she played a role in getting Gaddafi killed. SO? And?

Yo...

**** is straight up our mess now...
Its AS bad as Iraq because now you got a failed State that is a straight Terrorist Haven that didn't have to be, Gaddafi was no Immediate threat to anybody OTHER than da fact his OIL payments was bout to be accepted ONLY on gold...depending on what side of da coin you see that considering da US dollar is connected to all oil transactions (you can only pay for oil around da World with US Money) as da world Reserve currency..you can argue were da bad guys

And its Squarely on Obama's/Clinton's watch.

https://www.rt.com/usa/339140-libya-obama-worst-mistake/

Failing to plan for the aftermath of the US-led military intervention in Libya was President Barack Obama’s worst mistake during the eight years in the White House, Obama himself confessed to US media.
When asked in a quick Q&A preview for an interview with Fox News Sunday what his “worst mistake” as a president had been, the US leader answered: “Probably failing to plan for the day after what I think was the right thing to do in intervening in Libya.”

 

[the red model]

Yo...

**** is straight up our mess now...
Its AS bad as Iraq because now you got a failed State that is a straight Terrorist Haven that didn't have to be, Gaddafi was no Immediate threat to anybody OTHER than da fact his OIL payments was bout to be accepted ONLY on gold...depending on what side of da coin you see that considering da US dollar is connected to all oil transactions (you can only pay for oil around da World with US Money) as da world Reserve currency..you can argue were da bad guys

And its Squarely on Obama's/Clinton's watch.

https://www.rt.com/usa/339140-libya-obama-worst-mistake/

Bush,Cheney, and Rumsfeld should be under the jail though. 

 

[sundoobie]

So because imperialism is just the American way, we should just accept it and overlook the people committing these war crimes? That's pure ignorance and that type of thinking is a huge part of the problem, if not the biggest problem.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Don't ignore Libya and Benghazi pugnacious little fellow.

Her vote for Iraq is a war crime because she financially benefited from Exxon and J.P. Morgan for an illegal war. She showed a conflict of interests while holding a high seat in office. That's a ******* war crime.

I didn't mean to put the Russian reset in there.That was a C&P mistake.

I literally just type one line.

I see you're back to your trollin and condescending persona .

You bringing back the race trolling too? Or are you going to hold off on that for now?

-And your examples aren't war crimes. You can throw it out as a red herring all you want, I'm just pointing out they aren't regarded as such.

Even I have said many times, that America's foreign policy is ****, and it has been **** for a good while. I have said **** every president, including Obama for some of his actions overseas. No one is calling Clinton great, they are saying they don't care that much, other people are more focused on other issues.

Issues that strangely, you seem dismissive of.

Funny how that works huh.

 

[sundoobie]

Bush,Cheney, and Rumsfeld should be under the jail though. 

all of em

 

[ninjahood]

And whats worse, this Idiot Hillary went to War with libya for nothing other than a resume booster for her presidential run..and that **** back fired...

https://www.rt.com/usa/334400-hillary-clinton-libya-role/

In an interview with RT, investigative journalist Gareth Porter called The New York Times report and Clinton’s push for regime change in Libya “part of a broader story in which she was really positioning herself to run for president.”

 

[ben roethlisberger]

An illegal war is a war crime. Supporting and financially benefiting off said illegal war is a war crime.

Look bruh, I'm not going to sit here and debate with someone who get's his jolly's off of "smacking off kufi's" on internet forums. I provided numerous accounts of war crimes and yet you only choose to focus on the ones that don't quite fit your definition of a war crime. What about Yemen, Benghazi, Syria, Libya? You aren't really concerned with anything other than the inflation of your internet ego and being correct. I can't compete with someone who pugnaciously waits by his phone or laptop for a subscription alert all day just in hopes that he can disagree with someone and pat himself on the back for a job well done.

Do yourself a favor, and me, and just add me to your infamous block list. You won't have to read my "radical" beliefs and theories and I won't have to read your indoctrinated bull ****.

 

[ben roethlisberger]

all of em

Agreed.

Throws them fools under the jail and throw away the key.

 

[Master Zik]

Maybe I should rephrase.

Yall still trying to make these e-mails important to the American ppl or hold any bearing on her being president and the future of America.

America been part of assassinations, coups, insurgencies, etc. since it's independence. There's nothing criminal here so what we talking about? So she played a role in getting Gaddafi killed. SO? And? We out here using drones to kill terrorists and blowing up entire families in the process. Destabilizing a country's leadership for w/e reason (which are mainly for American interests) is apart of the job. That's part of the power in our country's position. So unless the American ppl as a whole want to go back to the policy of Isolationism that's not going to change.

So because imperialism is just the American way, we should just accept it

Unless the American ppl seriously want that to change and are prepared to take on what that change would entail my answer is a resounding YES.

Also again yall dudes gotta be clear on what a war crime is instead of just indiscriminately using it for a buzz word to bolster your stance

The two words to make up the term should be the first indication.

 

[ninjahood]

Maybe I should rephrase.

Yall still trying to make these e-mails important to the American ppl or hold any bearing on her being president and the future of America.

America been part of assassinations, coups, insurgencies, etc. since it's independence. There's nothing criminal here so what we talking about? So she played a role in getting Gaddafi killed. SO? And? We out here using drones to kill terrorists and blowing up entire families in the process. Destabilizing a country's leadership for w/e reason (which are mainly for American interests) is apart of the job. That's part of the power in our country's position. So unless the American ppl as a whole want to go back to the policy of Isolationism that's not going to change.

So because imperialism is just the American way, we should just accept it

Unless the American ppl seriously want that to change and are prepared to take on what that change would entail my answer is a resounding YES.

Trump & Bernie aint bout that life thou..

 

[Master Zik]

Yo...


**** is straight up our mess now...

Its AS bad as Iraq because now you got a failed State that is a straight Terrorist Haven that didn't have to be, Gaddafi was no Immediate threat to anybody OTHER than da fact his OIL payments was bout to be accepted ONLY on gold...depending on what side of da coin you see that considering da US dollar is connected to all oil transactions (you can only pay for oil around da World with US Money) as da world Reserve currency..you can argue were da bad guys


And its Squarely on Obama's/Clinton's watch.

https://www.rt.com/usa/339140-libya-obama-worst-mistake/

Bush,Cheney, and Rumsfeld should be under the jail though. 

If this is where we're going with it I guess that's where it starts but I know that's not gonna happen.

So right now it's just more ppl blowing hot air for the sake of having something to say.

I mean seriously the logic is now she voted for it to happen so it's a war crime? Then she benefited financially? This in the e-mails too? Payoffs and bank statements?

 

[the red model]

Unless the American ppl seriously want that to change and are prepared to take on what that change would entail my answer is a resounding YES.

The problem is we're kept in the dark so we will never know what those changes would entail. Releasing Hillary's emails, even though it seemed to be a republican strategy to discredit her, has also provided us with a glimpse into OUR foreign policy. 

 

[Master Zik]

Maybe I should rephrase.

Yall still trying to make these e-mails important to the American ppl or hold any bearing on her being president and the future of America.

America been part of assassinations, coups, insurgencies, etc. since it's independence. There's nothing criminal here so what we talking about? So she played a role in getting Gaddafi killed. SO? And? We out here using drones to kill terrorists and blowing up entire families in the process. Destabilizing a country's leadership for w/e reason (which are mainly for American interests) is apart of the job. That's part of the power in our country's position. So unless the American ppl as a whole want to go back to the policy of Isolationism that's not going to change.

So because imperialism is just the American way, we should just accept it

Unless the American ppl seriously want that to change and are prepared to take on what that change would entail my answer is a resounding YES.

Trump & Bernie aint bout that life thou..

I'm not at all sure Bernie's stance on foreign affairs (or things like particularly dealing with dictatorships where the ppl are in social unrest and whether or not he'd step in for regime changes). I know he's against more wars though. I can't recall a lot of his stances or policies. Maybe that'll be a little clearer tonight. It's one of the reasons I can't see him as president. I can't see him dealing with Putin.

Trump says a lot and has talked around this issue but it's been solely from a business perspective. So if we're talking about payoffs and ppl benefiting. He'd do similar things in the name of American business interests. He's sold or tried to sell the idea that he'd get other countries to do the destabilizing a lot more than American troops but at the same time he'll have the "best guys" come in to wipe out ISIS and any other terrorist group threatening America "really fast". FTR, I can't see Trump dealing with Putin either Trump strikes me as the kind of guy Putin would have killed.

 

[sundoobie]

^ There is a big reason why the NeoCons like Robert Kagan are against Trump and supporting Clinton.

Just read his opinion piece he wrote a couple months ago.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...443f28-dbc1-11e5-925f-1d10062cc82d_story.html

Then there is Max Boot another Neo-Con who jumped ship from Rubio now to Clinton

http://www.weeklystandard.com/selling-america-short/article/2001271

but but but Hillary is an Anti-War liberal.. she can't possibly be on the same side as those Neo Conservatives now can she?

 

[RustyShackleford]

An illegal war is a war crime. Supporting and financially benefiting off said illegal war is a war crime.

Look bruh, I'm not going to sit here and debate with someone who get's his jolly's off of "smacking off kufi's" on internet forums. I provided numerous accounts of war crimes and yet you only choose to focus on the ones that don't quite fit your definition of a war crime. What about Yemen, Benghazi, Syria, Libya? You aren't really concerned with anything other than the inflation of your internet ego and being correct. I can't compete with someone who pugnaciously waits by his phone or laptop for a subscription alert all day just in hopes that he can disagree with someone and pat himself on the back for a job well done.

Do yourself a favor, and me, and just add me to your infamous block list. You won't have to read my "radical" beliefs and theories and I won't have to read your indoctrinated bull ****.

Dude relax. I wrote one line, just one.

I wasn't looking for an argument, you're the one that came at me, and I checked you right back. For someone that has criticized me about be combative, you're have been the aggressor. Now you're pissed it didn't let your slick comment one more time.

Let's remember once again, you jumped on NT trolling (including race), calling folk scared you hear the truth. Not after I, and probably Meth, point out your schtick wasn't cool did you come with this "I just wanna talk steez". So miss me with this nonsense, like I have it out for you. I debate folk a lot, fine, but I'm not the one running around NT implying people that don't agree with my point of view are sleep, calling people indoctrinated, and being outright dismissive.

That is why I debate folk, so they know I'm not dismissing their points, I'm just simply disagreeing with them. Your big beef with me is because when you come in a thread talking slick, I ask you actually sit down and explain you points, which you struggle to do a lot. Then we have a back and froth and you have a breakdown, and it straight to the personal attacks. Like you rambling about me picking and choosing which of your examples to attack. I never even called a specific one out, you admitted yourself you added some in by mistake. And "smacking kufi off" is a silly Jim Jones joke I use in many threads, I didn't know my making light so often was so offending you so much.

None of the articles you provide evidence that your definition of a war crime as most people define it. You're posting circumstantial evidence, and raging at people that won't see your point of view. But I'm the pugnacious one? Brah please.

Maybe the dismissive attitude you think I have that is pissing you off so much can be a lesson to you.

Because that is probably just how I felt when we discussed race issues in the past. How dismissive you where that it was just the media pushing some agenda.

So take this as a lesson in empathy too.

And again, I wrote one line. And you took it as some sort of attack

Block me, be happier, keep doing you. But learn to act like an adult when challenged/questioned.

 

[sonoftony]

Bernie finna come back home to BK and take that W

 

[brendasdeadbaby]

Dam Bernie my dude but hes not really answering these questions just going around them