***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[chao7]

Belgium dude, have you seen this? Tell me this wouldn't fly in your country if someone was called to testify.

 

[blastercombo]

Trumps war with Iran will be the focal point of the next election. He can’t lose because if anything else it becomes the next dudes problem

 

[frink85]

Trumps war with Iran will be the focal point of the next election. He can’t lose because if anything else it becomes the next dudes problem

[insert old #trumptweet about obama going to war with iran for approval ratings]

 

[gry60]

I don't read this as Bernie insinuating that Warren is in bed with big money and the bankers. I read this as Bernie doubling down on his campaigning as furthest left candidate in the field and the one viewed by the establishment as the most dangerous and least desirable. You or anyone can disagree with that position, and I generally like Warren's politics and think they're pretty close to Bernie's overall, but that's his political messaging. Is it slightly disingenuous? Probably. But this is nothing like Trump fam, come on. And this is a political campaign—this won't even register on the scale of misrepresentations over the course of the next year-plus...

If you're gonna say that there is too much competition (capitalism), you can't be out there trying to win by - almost - any means necessary (especially against people you're the most ideologically aligned with).

When you respond like he did:

They know our progressive agenda of Medicare for All, breaking up big banks, taking on drug companies and raising wages is the real threat to the billionaire class.

to an article saying that centrists are supporting Warren, the way I see it, he is not giving Warren her dues as a someone who has fought and continues to fight for the common American (who is getting poorer by the day). She has a history of taking on Wall St; she has a history of taking on the capital class. The tweet doesn't make sense to me.

My problem with Bernie is that he doesn't strike me as someone who cares about the negative impact of what he says on the overall goal of advancing leftist socioeconomic policies. The danger with his approach is that the Right can use his words to discourage Bernie supporters from voting during the general if he doesn't win. This type of scorched earth tactic hurts more than it helps. I'll also note that he did the same thing against Hillary during the 2016 primaries: some of his attacks sounded like they came right out of fox news.

All of this begs the question: does Bernie cares more about a version of his ideas being implemented, or does he care more about himself being the savior of America?

 

[-Red-]

I mean this cycle.

Everytime a new candidate seemed like they could be a threat they were greeted by articles and comments from the Bernie supporting left (or in this case Bernie himself) as to why they were somehow the handpicked favorite of centrist/the establishment/1%. Beto, Pete, Kamala, Biden, now add Warren. People have their preferences but their is no cabal working to stop just Bernie.

So if a candidate looks like they would do strongly in a demographic Bernie did well with last time, the bad faith claws come out. Bernie himself pointed out that in a crowded field that it would be easier to win if you can generally keep the support he had last time and, and let the competition split the remaining votes.

With a strategy like that, the biggest threats are the candidates that could eat into the 2016 coalition. Beto it was young people, Pete and Biden it was Midwestern white moderates, Warren and Kamala it was progressives.

The last few times maybe that insinuation could have looked kinda sorta true with other candidates, but no one is gonna come close to buying it with Warren

I basically agree with all of this. I just don't see Bernie's (or his surrogates') attempts to distinguish himself as a candidate as being so problematic. Like, he didn't slander Warren. He basically said, "I'm the candidate that centrists want least." And that's mostly true for a variety of reasons, among them as you pointed out, Warren's strong campaigning and messaging. But this is a campaign. Of course he's going to spin things in a way that he thinks is to his advantage, even if he privately understands the issues are more complex than that. I could see why you and other folks bristled a little bit, but it just seems so incredibly mild to me in the broader scheme of things.

My main issue in this is that I wish Bernie would distinguish himself from Warren (and whoever else) in terms of concrete policies. That's certainly a political weakness of his, and it's a serious one for any elected official to have. On the other hand, that's probably Warren's biggest strength. It's still extremely early in the race, but Bernie's going to have to step it up seriously on that front without a doubt if he wants to win.

 

[-Red-]

If you're gonna say that there is too much competition (capitalism), you can't be out there trying to win by - almost - any means necessary (especially against people you're the most ideologically aligned with).

When you respond like he did:


to an article saying that centrists are supporting Warren, the way I see it, he is not giving Warren her dues as a someone who has fought and continues to fight for the common American (who is getting poorer by the day). She has a history of taking on Wall St; she has a history of taking on the capital class. The tweet doesn't make sense to me.

My problem with Bernie is that he doesn't strike me as someone who cares about the negative impact of what he says on the overall goal of advancing leftist socioeconomic policies. The danger with his approach is that the Right can use his words to discourage Bernie supporters from voting during the general if he doesn't win. This type of scorched earth tactic hurts more than it helps. I'll also note that he did the same thing against Hillary during the 2016 primaries: some of his attacks sounded like they came right out of fox news.

All of this begs the question: does Bernie cares more about a version of his ideas being implemented, or does he care more about himself being the savior of America?

I don't really disagree with you. I just don't think Bernie really threw her under the bus. I don't see this as scorched earth. He gave a take on a story that was designed to distinguish himself from his closest ideological opponent in a way that doubled down on his leftist underdog persona and messaging. He didn't say, "Warren sold out to Wall Street." He said, in essence, "The establishment will do whatever it can to stop my leftist campaign and policies, even embrace my closest ideological counterpart." I mean, he wasn't going to publicly say, "Warren is out-campaigning me and winning over centrists," even if that really is part of the equation. Again, this is still a campaign

 

[RustyShackleford]

Bernie had plenty good faith attacks against Hillary, unfortunately for him they were no were enough to put him over. So he and many many of his supporters unfortunately made bad faith ones.

Many of Bernie's and Bernie's bad faith attacks against Clinton were echoed by Trump.

If we are gonna say well we thought Hillary had it in the bag so people didn't know things would play out like they did to downplay past bad behavior, then there should be zero tolerance for it this time around. Especially when the insinuation being made is no where close to being true.

However, Bernie is like a washed magician, always using the same old tricks, and some people are tired of his shtick.

I understand leftist have an interest in his campaign so they are gonna defend him but some folks just tired of a sucka ****. I voted for dude and gave him thousands of dollars of my money mainly because I felt his message of social democracy needed to heard. And more and more I saw a man that let his own self entitlement be put before the goal at hand.

At this point I have had it. Go sit on the sidelines, let Warren shine, and let us trying to install some more progressive stars in Congress. More AOCs less Bernies

 

[RustyShackleford]

I basically agree with all of this. I just don't see Bernie's (or his surrogates') attempts to distinguish himself as a candidate as being so problematic. Like, he didn't slander Warren. He basically said, "I'm the candidate that centrists want least." And that's mostly true for a variety of reasons, among them as you pointed out, Warren's strong campaigning and messaging. But this is a campaign. Of course he's going to spin things in a way that he thinks is to his advantage, even if he privately understands the issues are more complex than that. I could see why you and other folks bristled a little bit, but it just seems so incredibly mild to me in the broader scheme of things.

My main issue in this is that I wish Bernie would distinguish himself from Warren (and whoever else) in terms of concrete policies. That's certainly a political weakness of his, and it's a serious one for any elected official to have. On the other hand, that's probably Warren's biggest strength. It's still extremely early in the race, but Bernie's going to have to step it up seriously on that front without a doubt if he wants to win.

I don't have an issues with a case being made for Bernie on policy reasons. But this is not the only things I am greated with when I read many Bernie supporting crowd

When the fact Beto has a rich stepdad, or mocking Pete's choice for the military, or somehow implying candidates that don't support a particular healthcare plan makes them cruel. It is reach after reach after reach. To make matters worst, Bernie has hired some of these people.

Also, I am not only bristled by these arguments I also feel like my intelligence is being insulted. Like some of the petty purity test the Bernie supporting crowd apply to other candidates, Bernie fails too. If they are trying to distinguish him as being unique, they are often doing a lazy job at it.

Then the argument was that people must really just be against his policies and progressive vision. However, support for Warren completely undercuts his argument, but Bernie stupidly still tried to peddle it.

And while I do agree that relatively he is no where near as bad as the Orange *** hat, they are to only two dudes always acting like their is a conspiracy against them.

Why can't he just cut that **** out. People are getting tired of that nonsense.

 

[deuce king]

Not at all. It's just that I can be honest and critique a candidate I support if and when I think they're wrong.

The question seems to be whether or not you're capable of this, as well, given that your boy Biden just lauded his working relationship in the 1970s with despicable white supremacist segregationists in the Senate as a prime example of the type of "civility" we need to bring back to our politics.

What are your thoughts on Biden's latest flagrant racial line-stepping/crossing in a long and storied career of such comments, relationships, and politics?

First off, lets ease up on the “your boy Biden” talk as it pertains to me champ. We don’t need that kind of propaganda polluting the thread.

My ONLY reason for backing Biden is because I think he can beat Trump, or at least gives us the best opportunity as of now to beat Trump. Other than that there is no use for Biden in my eyes as he’s not the future of the Democratic Party nor is he even the best choice to represent the party in the present. All things even and considered my candidate of choice is Elizabeth Warren as of now.

Now as it pertains to Joe Biden his recent comments on working with segregationists is yet another blind spot and overall lack of awareness of the black community that Biden lacks or simply doesn’t want to understand. Once I heard his comments in his entirety from the video and not just read the comments as they were posted with a level of context to them, the comment of working with people you don’t agree with I understand as all of us work with people we don’t agree with. The thing that Biden, white people, and other people in general have to understand and SHOULD SAY in situations like that is that “white supremacy and white extremists should NOT be accepted, tolerated, practiced or initiated. Black people should not have to suffer under segregation, white supremacy and its effects of injustices.” That’s how Biden should have answered the question.

#FailBernie2020

 

[pmtotheam]

 

[Belgium]

Belgium dude, have you seen this? Tell me this wouldn't fly in your country if someone was called to testify.

That wouldn't fly at all. As broken as our government is, parliament wouldn't allow that degree of stonewalling.

You can read the Hope Hicks transcript here by the way. I've read through about 30 pages and virtually all of it was a question followed by the deputy counsel to the president responding with "objection" and citing Pat Cippolone's letter claiming Hope Hicks has absolute immunity from answering anything whatsoever about her time in the WH.
https://www.axios.com/house-judicia...=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100

 

[whywesteppin]

Who needs a job when you got a $1000 tax break on last year's income?

#winning
#overflowingcoffers
#trickledownonme

 

[gry60]

Who needs a job when you got a $1000 tax break on last year's income?

#winning
#overflowingcoffers
#trickledownonme #ismelllikeammonia

FTFY

 

[whywesteppin]

FTFY

Ammonia?

That's the smell of the men working in the coal ga-a-ang
That's the smell of the men working in the coal gang

All day long they're fighting libs
(Hooh aah) (hooh aah)
(Hooh aah) (hooh aah)

That's the smell of the men working in the coal ga-a-ang
That's the smell of the men working in the coal gang

All day long they work so hard
Till the sun is goin' down
Working on the forums and chatrooms
And fighting, fighting libbie innuendo
You hear them sealionin' their enemies away
Then you hear somebody sa-ay

That's the smell of the men working in the coal ga-a-ang
That's the smell of the men working in the coal gang

 

[aepps20]

The endless waterfalls of money available to those willing to sell out there own people is just staggering.


Coleman Hughes is out here making major bank,



shiiit I could too if I didn't have dignity, self respect, and a stubborn affinity for my own blackness.

I don't have that problem. Waiting for that cabinet position.

 

[gry60]

Ammonia?

That's the smell of the men working in the coal ga-a-ang
That's the smell of the men working in the coal gang

All day long they're fighting libs
(Hooh aah) (hooh aah)
(Hooh aah) (hooh aah)

That's the smell of the men working in the coal ga-a-ang
That's the smell of the men working in the coal gang

All day long they work so hard
Till the sun is goin' down
Working on the forums and chatrooms
And fighting, fighting libbie innuendo
You hear them sealionin' their enemies away
Then you hear somebody sa-ay

That's the smell of the men working in the coal ga-a-ang
That's the smell of the men working in the coal gang

I don't have that problem. Waiting for that cabinet position.

 

[sonoftony]

 

[boris]

Everyone better be waiting for due process before they formulate any opinions about the piece of **** that is Roy Moore.

 

[-Red-]

Bernie had plenty good faith attacks against Hillary, unfortunately for him they were no were enough to put him over. So he and many many of his supporters unfortunately made bad faith ones.

Many of Bernie's and Bernie's bad faith attacks against Clinton were echoed by Trump.

If we are gonna say well we thought Hillary had it in the bag so people didn't know things would play out like they did to downplay past bad behavior, then there should be zero tolerance for it this time around. Especially when the insinuation being made is no where close to being true.

However, Bernie is like a washed magician, always using the same old tricks, and some people are tired of his shtick.

I understand leftist have an interest in his campaign so they are gonna defend him but some folks just tired of a sucka ****. I voted for dude and gave him thousands of dollars of my money mainly because I felt his message of social democracy needed to heard. And more and more I saw a man that let his own self entitlement be put before the goal at hand.

At this point I have had it. Go sit on the sidelines, let Warren shine, and let us trying to install some more progressive stars in Congress. More AOCs less Bernies

Trump and the GOP had no shortage of rhetorical ammunition at their disposal to attack Clinton with. They'd been attacking her and Bill on a national stage for 25 years at that point. They didn't need anything from Sanders and the insinuation that he's the one that provided fodder for Trump and the GOP to use against Clinton is ridiculous. And let's not act like Clinton and her surrogates weren't engaged in their own bad faith attacks on Bernie. Or against Obama in 2008. Seriously. Everyone's upset that Trump won, me as much as anyone in here, and you and anyone else can dislike Bernie for whatever reasons. But come on man.

And zero tolerance this time around for what? Critiquing your opponents? Should Booker and Bernie and whoever else not be taking Biden to task for his most recent round of bull**** because Trump might be able to use it as ammo in the general if Biden is the nominee? Boy, I sure hope you and everyone else keep this same energy as the rhetoric among the other candidates heat up with red-baiting stuff about socialism, him being too extreme, his policy ideas as "irresponsible," etc. I really hope so, if this is the standard that we're holding folks to. I don't even agree that there was an untrue insinuation in his tweet.

That said, again, I understand if some people don't like Bernie for whatever reason. And some of the reasons you've stated over the past couple of years are reasonable. That's cool, and I respect that. But I am going to chime in sometimes when I think the arguments being made against him and his politics are unreasonable or based on what I consider to be some pretty blatant double-standards.

 

[-Red-]

I don't have an issues with a case being made for Bernie on policy reasons. But this is not the only things I am greated with when I read many Bernie supporting crowd

When the fact Beto has a rich stepdad, or mocking Pete's choice for the military, or somehow implying candidates that don't support a particular healthcare plan makes them cruel. It is reach after reach after reach. To make matters worst, Bernie has hired some of these people.

Also, I am not only bristled by these arguments I also feel like my intelligence is being insulted. Like some of the petty purity test the Bernie supporting crowd apply to other candidates, Bernie fails too. If they are trying to distinguish him as being unique, they are often doing a lazy job at it.

Then the argument was that people must really just be against his policies and progressive vision. However, support for Warren completely undercuts his argument, but Bernie stupidly still tried to peddle it.

And while I do agree that relatively he is no where near as bad as the Orange *** hat, they are to only two dudes always acting like their is a conspiracy against them.

Why can't he just cut that **** out. People are getting tired of that nonsense.

Where did Bernie criticize Beto for having a rich stepdad? Or Pete for being in the military? Maybe I missed these things...

As for M4A, to my knowledge, there's been no alternative universal healthcare legislation introduced from any other Democrats in Congress. So up to this point, it has been M4A or bust when it comes to universal coverage. So yeah, it is a purity test, and a pretty reasonable one in my opinion, in the absence of any other concrete legislation for universal coverage.

I think the conspiracy stuff is generally coming more from a very loud segment of his supporters than from him directly. I wouldn't read the tweet we've been discussing as conspiracy mongering, and I don't think you would either if you weren't already predisposed to looking for it among Sanders and folks in his camp. That's obviously conjecture, but still

 

[-Red-]

First off, lets ease up on the “your boy Biden” talk as it pertains to me champ. We don’t need that kind of propaganda polluting the thread.

My ONLY reason for backing Biden is because I think he can beat Trump, or at least gives us the best opportunity as of now to beat Trump. Other than that there is no use for Biden in my eyes as he’s not the future of the Democratic Party nor is he even the best choice to represent the party in the present. All things even and considered my candidate of choice is Elizabeth Warren as of now.

Now as it pertains to Joe Biden his recent comments on working with segregationists is yet another blind spot and overall lack of awareness of the black community that Biden lacks or simply doesn’t want to understand. Once I heard his comments in his entirety from the video and not just read the comments as they were posted with a level of context to them, the comment of working with people you don’t agree with I understand as all of us work with people we don’t agree with. The thing that Biden, white people, and other people in general have to understand and SHOULD SAY in situations like that is that “white supremacy and white extremists should NOT be accepted, tolerated, practiced or initiated. Black people should not have to suffer under segregation, white supremacy and its effects of injustices.” That’s how Biden should have answered the question.

#FailBernie2020

So are the folks that like to pile on Bernie go back and forth with me and other Bernie supporters for every little thing gonna jump in here on this nonsense, or am I going to have to go it alone? I mean, I can do it, I'm just trying to see where folks stand with everything...

 

[RustyShackleford]

Where did Bernie criticize Beto for having a rich stepdad? Or Pete for being in the military? Maybe I missed these things...

As for M4A, to my knowledge, there's been no alternative universal healthcare legislation introduced from any other Democrats in Congress. So up to this point, it has been M4A or bust when it comes to universal coverage. So yeah, it is a purity test, and a pretty reasonable one in my opinion, in the absence of any other concrete legislation for universal coverage.

I think the conspiracy stuff is generally coming more from a very loud segment of his supporters than from him directly. I wouldn't read the tweet we've been discussing as conspiracy mongering, and I don't think you would either if you weren't already predisposed to looking for it among Sanders and folks in his camp. That's obviously conjecture, but still

-I clearly said the "Bernie supporting crowd". You can go read articles on Jacobin, Current Affairs, segments on Sam Seder and TYT, articles and post from David Sirota (who he hired) to see the pettiness.

-With all due respect. If you think Bernie's M4A is the only universal healthcare plan that has been proposed, you haven't really been paying attention. The Dems never have a shortage of healthcare plans. This covers the most recent wave. So maybe we can drop that purity test now, cool?...
https://www.vox.com/2018/12/13/1810...ined-single-payer-health-care-sanders-jayapal

http://files.kff.org/attachment/Tab...-for-all-Public-Plan-Proposals-116th-Congress

-Bernie himself gives it juice too to this insinuation that it is anyone but Bernie. There is no establishment cabal plotting against him. There was not one in 2016, there is not one in place right now. Like I said, Bernie helped write the reforms for this primary, just like Hillary before him. So he and none of his supporters are in a position to claim the powers that be are working against him.

 

[deleted]

I like Bernie for the most part

But hiring Sirota was a very Trumpy thing to do

 

[cedric ceballos]

Tear each other a new one during the primaries, challenge each other, and compete in good faith until there’s a nominee.

Once there’s a nominee, support that nominee, rally around them and don’t try to insinuate “I got screwed” narratives. Talking to you Bernie.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Trump and the GOP had no shortage of rhetorical ammunition at their disposal to attack Clinton with. They'd been attacking her and Bill on a national stage for 25 years at that point. They didn't need anything from Sanders and the insinuation that he's the one that provided fodder for Trump and the GOP to use against Clinton is ridiculous. And let's not act like Clinton and her surrogates weren't engaged in their own bad faith attacks on Bernie. Or against Obama in 2008. Seriously. Everyone's upset that Trump won, me as much as anyone in here, and you and anyone else can dislike Bernie for whatever reasons. But come on man.

And zero tolerance this time around for what? Critiquing your opponents? Should Booker and Bernie and whoever else not be taking Biden to task for his most recent round of bull**** because Trump might be able to use it as ammo in the general if Biden is the nominee? Boy, I sure hope you and everyone else keep this same energy as the rhetoric among the other candidates heat up with red-baiting stuff about socialism, him being too extreme, his policy ideas as "irresponsible," etc. I really hope so, if this is the standard that we're holding folks to. I don't even agree that there was an untrue insinuation in his tweet.

That said, again, I understand if some people don't like Bernie for whatever reason. And some of the reasons you've stated over the past couple of years are reasonable. That's cool, and I respect that. But I am going to chime in sometimes when I think the arguments being made against him and his politics are unreasonable or based on what I consider to be some pretty blatant double-standards.

Bernie is better than Trump, he clears that bar easily, without question. Trump's behavior is way worse than anything Bernie has ever done, it is not even close. I have no problem saying that.

-But So what if the GOP does it, that makes it cool for Bernie to engage in bad faith attacks too, especially when he was already soundly beaten? This is the standard we should hold Bernie too, the GOP? Also it is one thing for the GOP to babble nonsense, they always do, but when Bernie mirrors the attacks he appears to gives them some legitimacy. It also gives the GOP a new talking point. Right wing pundits can then say "it is not only us that think this, Bernie thought so too". Furthermore, I am in no way excusing any of Clinton's bad behavior. However none of those things excuse Bernie.

In past post you have mentioned repeatedly that liberal being comparatively better than the GOP is not enough for you, that despite that you still have beefs with them. Hell even that today's progressives being better than yesteryears centrist are not enough. However you are telling me "come on man" because Bernie's behavior was comparatively not as bad. So tell me, if I am to respect those arguments to make (which I do), then why would you accept the argument you just made in defense of Sanders.

You are just saying that somehow people should let his buffoonery slide because other people had bad acts too. So what, none of that excuses what Bernie did. Unless you can point to me giving Trump or Clinton a pass for their behavior (which you can't) to expose some hypocritical criteria I am applying to Bernie, I do not think I need to "come on man"

But why can't we just leave that **** in 2016. That is all I am asking really.

-Excuse me, but I called out a specific type of attack, ones I said that were made in bad faith. I can keep whatever energy I please because I made a specific criticism not a blanket statement that can be applied to all other forms of criticism.

Furthermore, if you feel any candidate is unfair to Bernie, you are free to voice your displeasure. Or are you could just gonna let it slide because everyone does it, think of comparatively worst behavior, and it is say it is just a campaign. I dunno, your call famb.