QB THREAD - 2x quarterbacky award winner: Lamar Jackson

[a55a5in11]

I swear this argument was never used until russ started killing it

 

[100027]

Franchise to me means a player that can take you to a SB victory if you build around him right. No more, no less. That's why Alex Smith is on the borderline. Trent Dilfer types ain't winning SBs in the current era.

 

[CP1708]

I swear this argument was never used until russ started killing it

Like how you were never in here the first 12 weeks of the season talking him up?

K.

I've been saying not to blame/praise the QB for everything for years. Years. Even finnnns and his big mouth wouldn't argue that, he's the one I've spent the most time arguin about it.

He puts EVERYTHING on QB, nay, the HOT QB. He's praised RG3, Foles, Kap, Osweiler, whoever wins a game that week.

And you of all people should know when our entire argument against you was defense, run game, coaches, draft picks, etc.
I've pointed out the helmet catch for years costing Tom, elevating Eli, etc.

You've heard this stuff for years. You choose to ignore it or discredit it, now, after 4 hot games for your guy. *shrugs*

 

[CP1708]

Franchise to me means a player that can take you to a SB victory if you build around him right. No more, no less. That's why Alex Smith is on the borderline. Trent Dilfer types ain't winning SBs in the current era.

Hmmmmm

Years ago, I started a thread. 07-08-09, somewhere in there.

I asked, If I took every Hurricane in the NFL, could I win the Super Bowl?

Andre, Wayne, Santana Moss
Olsen, Winslow, Schokey
Edge, Portis, McGahee, Gore
McKinnie, Winston and I forget other Oline guys.

Wilfork, Sapp, Calais Campbell
Ray Lewis, Vilma, DJ Williams
Ed Reed, Sean Taylor
Antrelle Rolle, Buchanon

Devin Hester returnin kicks.

Various fill in CB's, K, P that I forget names.


All Pro's all over the field.

Old man Testerverde and Brock Berlin as the QB's. *manage the game*


I was told, no. QB play would cost team. Multiple HOFers, both sides of ball, but QB would cost this team.


Then I look at the casts that surround Cam, Ben, Dalton, Rivers, Rodgers, etc.

Iono.

What is "the right way"?

Ben has elite WR's/RB
Dalton has balanced roster
Cam has elite TE/Def
Russ has RB/Def
Brady has TE/Coach
Rodgers has balanced roster
Early Rivers had elite RB/TE
Peyton always had elite WR's/O
Early Brady had run game + Def
Early Ben same
Eli had Def + Miracle throw(s)


I just see balance the team best you can. Cover your weaknesses as much as possible. Stay healthy. Coach each week to attack other team weaknesses.

And pray for some luck along the way.

Helmet grabs, overcoming double digit deficits, refs (Dallas last year both for, and against, or Tuck rule game)

None of that stuff is on the QB.

But they get all the credit.

 

[skurrtskurrt29]

Repped.

But defining, franchise QB may prove difficult.

Dalton?
Rivers?
Eli?
Cam?
Palmer?
Flacco?

Up one year, down the next, back up, back down.....how judge who's who?

Honestly asking, what is your definition of a franchise QB?

 

[CP1708]

Repped.

But defining, franchise QB may prove difficult.

Dalton?
Rivers?
Eli?
Cam?
Palmer?
Flacco?

Up one year, down the next, back up, back down.....how judge who's who?

Honestly asking, what is your definition of a franchise QB?

A guy that can do his job. Every game.

Same as Franchise LG. Or Franchise OLB. Franchise WR.


Reason I say that is IMO, a QB is always learning/growing.

Drew Brees in SD, not franchise QB.
Drew Brees in NO, franchise QB.

Brett Favre ATL, Favre in GB.

Romo, undrafted free agent, QB of the Dallas Cowboys. Franchise QB, yay or nay?

Everyone wants to label a guy and the thing is, they move around. Cam last year, Cam this year. Was he a Super Bowl franchise guy last year?

Ben as a hand off guy, 2 SB's. This Ben, elite offense, 400 yards a week Ben, struggles to be above .500 last couple years. Which Ben is a "franchise QB?"


I just don't know if there's a right answer. Are there rules? Ages? Brady is 38, is he still a franchise QB?

Carson Palmer, #1 pick, Bengal franchise QB.
Carson Palmer Raider, bum.
Carson Palmer Cardinal, franchise QB.

Is it an on off switch, or is it the situation/coaches/GM/players included with the situation?

I'm not smart enough to answer all those questions.
I am smart enough to believe one word labels don't actually define the position properly.

If Ryan Fitzpatrick and the Jets go on a run and win the Super Bowl, does he become team MVP, franchise QB?

How do I measure something like that?

 

[100027]

Ben has elite WR's/RB
Dalton has balanced roster
Cam has elite TE/Def
Russ has RB/Def
Brady has TE/Coach
Rodgers has balanced roster
Early Rivers had elite RB/TE
Peyton always had elite WR's/O
Early Brady had run game + Def
Early Ben same
Eli had Def + Miracle throw(s)


I just see balance the team best you can. Cover your weaknesses as much as possible. Stay healthy. Coach each week to attack other team weaknesses.
 

You ain't winning a SB with a great QB and a poor cast.  And you aren't winning anything in today's NFL with a great surrounding cast and a poor QB, either.  Sounds simplistic but that is what it is.  I do think your Hurricanes team would have an uphill climb to win the SB even with those hall of famers—but that's a tough hypothetical.

When teams that are unbalanced have won the SB in recent years it seems that they've gotten outlier performances from those weaker areas that provided temporary balance and propelled them to victory.  For example, the Saints defense has traditionally been inconsistent at best during the Peyton era but they lead the league in turnovers during the SB run—an outlier performance, and probably a lot of luck involved.  The same goes for Joe Flacco playing like a god in 2013.  

So I think we agree on that mostly.  You need a complete team to win the Super Bowl—for that playoff run, at least.  But the QB can't be the biggest hole or a problem area.  No way, no how.

 

[skurrtskurrt29]

We basically agree then, there's no clear cut way to answer that question. Too many things to consider.

I'm glad you brought up Ben.

In the article I posted earlier, the author says he's been the most improved QB in the last 5 season. In those 5 seasons, Pittsburgh has basically been in rebuilding/re-tooling mode. He's had to deal with constant change at RB, his offensive line wasn't jack **** until a hall of famer (Munchack) had to come coach, his defense deteriorated badly due to hanging on to guys longer than needed, Mike Wallace was his #1 receiver for a few years...I mean, I can go on and on. All this while not having a losing season or a top 10 draft pick to help things. That's a result of QB play, imo.

Point is, he's managed to turn himself into a top flight QB dispite all of that. To me, that's what a franchise QB is: Deal with the ups, deal with the downs, and get better as time goes on and hope everybody plays their part. I don't necessarily feel like you have to win a 'chip to be a franchise QB because sometimes you can be great and things still don't play into your favor for a variety of reasons.

 

[100027]

Ben's always had elite WRs and depth at the position though.  Just to play devil's advocate...  And he did suffer from that terrible line they had for a minute

 

[skurrtskurrt29]

Ben's always had elite WRs and depth at the position though.  Just to play devil's advocate...  And he did suffer from that terrible line they had for a minute

No, he hasn't

Depth? Sure. Elite? Antonio Brown is the first truly elite receiver he's ever played with.

Where's Wallace at right now? On his third team. Santonio Holmes is currently out of the league. Nobody has everrrrrr considered Hines Ward elite outside of Pittsburghers, so I'm definitely not trying to here that either. The only guy you can make a case for is Emmanuel Sanders, and when he was here he dropped footballs all over the place on his way out of the door.

 

[100027]

No, he hasn't

Depth? Sure. Elite? Antonio Brown is the first truly elite receiver he's ever played with.

Where's Wallace at right now? On his third team. Santonio Holmes is currently out of the league. Nobody has everrrrrr considered Hines Ward elite outside of Pittsburghers, so I'm definitely not trying to here that either. The only guy you can make a case for is Emmanuel Sanders, and when he was here he dropped footballs all over the place on his way out of the door.

He's had Hines, Plaxico, Santonio, Antonio Brown, Emmanuel Sanders, and now Martavis Bryant over his time in the league.  Who's had better luck with receivers over that stretch aside from Peyton Manning?  I'm calling the unit of pass catchers "elite", not the individuals.  

 

[CP1708]

I did the same thing, I called the unit (AB, MB, Wheaton) elite, but not the individual players outside of AB. I struggled with how to classify that as well.

Brees had the elite O, based on how they combined with Jimmy, Sproles, Colston, Stills, Ingram but only Jimmy was really elite as a weapon. But matchup wise, they played well off each other for Brees to pick and choose based off best matchup he had. Sproles on a LBer, Colston vs small CB, etc. That was a group based off design and fit more so than a talent orgy like Shady, DJax, Maclin, Mathews, Ertz would have been if Chip kept them together.

 

[skurrtskurrt29]

It doesn't make any sense to me to call them elite as a whole, when at no point in time during their stints in Pittsburgh were they considered elite, arguably not even top 10 receivers.

Outside of Brown, of course.

 

[100027]

It doesn't make any sense to me to call them elite as a whole, when at no point in time during their stints in Pittsburgh were they considered elite, arguably not even top 10 receivers.

Outside of Brown, of course.

Okay, whatever.  Forget the term "elite".  He's had basically two #1 quality receivers during most of his tenure in Pitt, something almost no other QB in the league can claim.

 

[CP1708]

I group it more as a whole. Like adding Le'Veon/Miller, etc.

Or Written/Murray in Dallas last year.

Rice, Taylor, Jones, Rathman, Craig etc.

I guess it's kinda difficult to break them down.

Brady this year had Gronk, Edelman, Lewis, Amendola. Not elite unit of WR, but elite unit of matchup problems.
Last year you'd add Vereen + LaFell.

 

[skurrtskurrt29]

Okay, whatever.  Forget the term "elite".  He's had basically two #1 quality receivers during most of his tenure in Pitt, something almost no other QB in the league can claim.

I'll agree with that.

By the way, I'm not trying to throw a pitty party for Ben. He's not the only QB to ever deal with these issues. It was just a reply to CP's franchise QB post.

 

[a55a5in11]

I swear this argument was never used until russ started killing it

Like how you were never in here the first 12 weeks of the season talking him up?

K.

I've been saying not to blame/praise the QB for everything for years. Years. Even finnnns and his big mouth wouldn't argue that, he's the one I've spent the most time arguin about it.

He puts EVERYTHING on QB, nay, the HOT QB. He's praised RG3, Foles, Kap, Osweiler, whoever wins a game that week.

And you of all people should know when our entire argument against you was defense, run game, coaches, draft picks, etc.
I've pointed out the helmet catch for years costing Tom, elevating Eli, etc.

You've heard this stuff for years. You choose to ignore it or discredit it, now, after 4 hot games for your guy. *shrugs*

I was never in this thread the first 12 weeks?
Like I said you never used this argument until Russ starts killing it and now you're pulling more **** out of your *** to not make you sound dumb.
Russ is a game manager
The Seahawks win despite of Russ
Russ can't carry the hawks to Win's

All crazy stupid arguments you have tried to make and theres tons more

 

[CP1708]

Funny part is I've been applying these thoughts to all QB's, all teams.

You seem to be worried about my thoughts on Russ, when I haven't said anything bad about him, even when he had 10 TD's and 7 INT's 3 months into the season.

It's fine, you and MF can follow me around all you want, no sweat off my back.

 

[a55a5in11]

NFL talent evaluators questioned how Russell Wilson would fare without an elite defense and running game?


Whaaaaaaaaa? The audacity of those people. How dare they.

Heres a hot take I found in literally 10 seconds

Funny part is I've been applying these thoughts to all QB's, all teams.

You seem to be worried about my thoughts on Russ, when I haven't said anything bad about him, even when he had 10 TD's and 7 INT's 3 months into the season.

It's fine, you and MF can follow me around all you want, no sweat off my back.

No you didn't
If you really did use those arguments, you wouldn't say the Hawks won the NFC championship in spite of Russ throwing 4 INT
You would have brought up 2 of them were perfect passes that were tipped

But than you only bring that stuff up for Luck and Tannehill

 

[CP1708]

Perfect passes, that were tipped. That were perfect? Which 2?

And I pointed out (multiple times) That a team that had FIVE turnovers, against the league MVP, held that team down to 19 points until the final drive.

1 TD, and 4 FG's thru 59 minutes, vs Aaron freaking Rodgers.

Wilson had a ZERO rating, thru 60 minutes, at home, against Aaron Rodgers, and the game was tied.


Point blank, flat out, 52 other guys + coaches doin their jobs and helping the QB out.

Zero QB rating, 5 turnovers. Still tied. That is exactly what I've been driving at.


Cam Newton had 340 yards passing, 100 yards rushing, 5 TD's and the game was tied with 5 seconds left.


I mean.....

Those are polar opposite games, same results. Would Cam have a 35-35 game if he had zero QB rating, 5 turnovers (team, not the QB)?

You really can't see the point of who else contributes to a team game besides the one position?

#OnlyLuck&Tannehill

#UsesExamplesFromEveryTeamInTheLeagueTho


Thought of another Franchise QB ala Palmer.

Kurt Warner Rams, Franchise
Kurt Warner Giants, garbage
Kurt Warner Cardinals, Franchise

Same guy, multiple variables with each set up. On/off switch?

 

[illoquent aka dsk]

And yes I agree Brady and Belichick have a symbiotic relationship.

That's one of hardest things for any coach to able to have.

Simplest way to put it without a thorough explanation, but this is correct. There's 15+ years of evidence. It's mainly symbiotic. 

But I also do believe Belichick has absolutely benefited more from having Brady around. 

EDIT: Brady vs. Belichick talk felt like déjà vu so you already know I had to go down the rabbit hole and find similar instances of past discussions. Apparently there was one early in this very thread. 

This is what I said at the time about BB/TB12 and I'll still stand by it...

 
"Bill Belichick made Tom Brady"..."Brady is lucky to have BB by his side"...etc, etc.

Are we sure about that?

Some people say these things like there isn't enough data we could look at and not only kill that train of thought, but wonder instead if the opposite is true.

...

Bill Belichick was head coach for exactly 100 total games before Tom Brady became his starting QB in 2001. He had a record of 42-58  in those games...good for a .420 win percentage.

Yup, the guy who is widely regarded as the best HC in the league (and possibly of all time) had an under .500 record in his first hundred games.

...

If you want a better picture of where he'd rank as a coach pre-Brady...here's a few dudes that coached in at least as many games and had/have a BETTER win % than Bill's first 100:

Norv MF'ing Turner (.483)

Dave Wannstedt (.485)

**** Jauron (.423)

Marvin Lewis (.520)

Herm Edwards (.422)

Jack Del Rio (.489)

Gary Kubiak (.48

Art Shell (.519)

Jim Fassel (.523)

Lovie Smith (.550)

Ken Whisenhunt (.455)

Pre-Brady Bill's closest comp is the current defensive coordinator of the 'Skins and future 1st ballot HOFer Jim Haslett.

108 games to 100.

.435 to Bill's .420.

"B-B-Bu-But...Matt Cassel won 11 games in '08!"

The '08 Patriots had the easiest SOS in the league that season, carried over a loaded offense from the previous year, and their head coach was much much MUCH better at his job at that point than whatever he did before 2001.

The '07 team won 7 more games and ran up 18 in a row before Eli came through. Sounds like a reasonable drop-off to me considering the circumstances.

I'm not saying these things to **** on Bill (this time)...just providing a little perspective on tired narratives.

Emphasis on that last sentence. 

 

[a55a5in11]

Keep deflecting

#itsoki*****andTannehillthrowinterceptionsbecausetheircoachesandreceiverssuck
#IfMarshawngetshurtRusscan'tcarrytheoffense
#Ifthedefenseisn'teliteRusscan'twinthegame

 

[CP1708]

Of those 2, I have less issue with the 2nd one. They were down, gotta throw it, it happens.
The first one, why is he throwing that, at all? Is he open?

I accept the 2nd, not sure if I agree with the first as "perfect" passes as you say.


And Marshawn is down, but isn't the defense still pretty elite?
Not that Russ isn't playing great the last month, just, I thought the Hawks Def still been solid minus the Pitt/Ari games. I know they had 4th quarter issues early in the year tho

 

[mister friendly]

Why is this dude bringing up my name? Following you around? Dude theres like 3 regular Football threads on the site, I post in 2 of them.

I legit laughed when I read that this morning, thanks for the laugh.

I dont get why dude is bringing up my name especially after I let him cook with inane theory about Belichick.

Better owner, better resources, maybe even better assistants.

Like Modell didn't win a championship with the Ravens 4 years later? He had enough resources to make the Ravens a perennial good team, heck even the Browns were an contender a couple seasons before Belichick.

Like his Browns staff didn't have 6 future NFL head coaches, 3 future College Football head coaches and 7 future NFL general managers?

Yep Im sure he had better assistants later.

Yes Bill has a good system and plans but he wasn't doing ***** til Tom Brady. An elite quarterback came along.

It's possible Bill learned, and could have won with Drew, same as Tom. But we'll never know.

Belichick was 5-13 with Bledsoe as his starter. So we do know.






Also I like how dude is debating about those Russell interceptions

This is the same dude who CRIES about drops all the time but doesnt say a peep about 2 of those interceptions being drops.

You got love it

 

[CP1708]

So Brady was an elite QB his first year on the field? The guy that at Michigan in 12 games had 14 TD and 10 INT? That Tom Brady? The next year he had like 16 or 18 TD’s. Wasn’t even 200 pounds at the combine? Pick #199, was elite a year later after sitting on the bench?

The Patriots didn’t win that year with defense? Bill’s specialty? Milloy, Law, Bruschi, Vrabel, Seymour, McGinest + other vets like Buckley or Cox, or Phifer, Otis Smith, etc.

Were Scott Pioli, Romeo Crennel or Charlie Weiss at Cleveland with him? Just because he had other good coaches at Cleveland, doesn’t make them as good as what he had in NE. Not a knock on Modell or praise for Kraft, just how situations sometimes go, the perfect storm of people working together.

Maybe Tom Brady taught Troy Brown how to play CB that one year.
Or taught the refs about the tuck rule.
Or taught Vinateri how to kick clutch kicks in the snow. (or in the Super Bowl)
Or Tom Brady held the Rams to 17 points, in a dome.

I know, Tom Brady was elite his first year playing in the league with his 190 yards a game and 86 QB rating. If that’s elite to you, then Alex Smith must be God.

Like how elite Brady won the AFC title game, from the bench.
Or the Super Bowl when he led the Offense to 13 points vs the vaunted Rams offense, and still won. (that defensive TD by Law didn’t do anything)
The 145 yards Brady had and 1 TD really was elite.

Bill Belichick wasn’t **** until that guy showed up. Yeah, you got it pegged.


Clearly Brady grew over the years. Zero question he has. Just as he grew, Bill could have grown as well. Clearly, he did. Saying Bill is only great cuz of Bill now, in 2015, after seeing what Tom becamse the past 15 years, that’s whatever.

Saying in 2000-01 that Belichick is only great and won only because of the “elite” Tom Brady, is flat out stupid.