So INCEPTION is One of the BEST Movies I have ever seen... Vol. Christopher "The Man" Nolan

[noskey]

Originally Posted by ekon one



So how was Juno able to retrieve Fisher when there paths should have diverged following the third dream?

Who cares anymore

It doesnt take away from the movie. This argument is ridiculous, and I'm sure if it in fact a plot hole, it's an acceptable one seeing just how complex this movie is

 

[jzero23]

Originally Posted by jamminbyalias

Originally Posted by JZero23

Originally Posted by jamminbyalias

Originally Posted by JZero23

Can someone explain the reason why being in Limbo is so bad? Once you're down there, you just have to kill yourself then you are back to your normal self. Dude and his wife put their heads on the train tracks. The girl and the business guy both jumped off the building and woke up in level 3. He found the Japanese dude and they both shot themselves with the gun on the table.

So what's so bad about being in "limbo"? Too many plot holes in this movie.

It was a great movie, but it seemed like they wrote it as they went along, instead of thinking things through. If you can't die in a dream within a dream because you will be in limbo, but then if you die in limbo you are sent back, then what is there to worry about?

You may be able to kill yourself and get back to "reality"--but when you're stuck in limbo, you're so deep into the dream you may never realize you're dreaming-- you're lost for eternity. Saito and Mal could have easily been stuck in limbo forever (while their brain in 'reality' turned into mush) if Cobb didn't save them.

I don't agree that there are plot holes in the movie-- everything seemed well thought out and if you are questioning certain things in the movie-- they were most likely included (or not included) purposely for a reason (either to spark dialogue, theories, or whatever else with the film). Hell, Chris Nolan has been working on this movie for the past 10 years.

I have read in other forums that in all the 'reality scenes', Cobb is not wearing a wedding ring, and in all the 'dream sequences' he is. Someone has mentioned that you can clearly see Dom's ring finger both on the plane before going into the dream and after the inception when he awakes on the plane-- and in both scenes he is ring-less. But it is clear he has the ring on during the 'inception dream sequences'. This is proof enough for me that he was not dreaming at the end of the film. Why else would Nolan include a detail like that?

Damn some people are really reaching with their theories, not particularly on this board, but in general from what I have read in other forums.

When Ariadne and Cobb go back to get Mal and Fisher, they knew very well that a) they were in limbo and b) the only way out was to die. So Cobb knew how to get out of limbo since he's been there before and got out, correct? So when Saito got shot in dream 1, why not tell him to go to limbo and die, and then come back to them in tip top shape? Instead he made such a big stink about how going to limbo is the worst thing in eternity. Instead of telling them the way out of Limbo. 

To introduce a way to get out of dreams, then say you can't do it because blah blah, then do it at the end to get out of everything? That's a covered up plot hole man...

Because going into limbo is a risk, a HUGE risk. Once in limbo, you're so deep into the dream, that you don't know you're dreaming-- you can't differentiate between the dream and reality. Cobb and Ariadne were in limbo for seconds, they could remember the truth. Saito was in there for decades-- obviously he slowly forgot and limbo became his reality. Cobb ran just as much of a risk when he went into limbo to save Saito, he damn near forgot why he was there.

Saito didn't know what to do because Cobb didn't say, when you die, die again in limbo. He didn't disclose any info to the team, and it kinda screwed them over. After feeling guilty, he went to get Saito. Limbo became his reality because he didn't know what was going on. Had Cobb not been a selfish, self loathing bastard, he could have told the team what to expect and not kept all the skeletons in the closet. Limbo doesn't sound so bad when all you have to do is die, just like any regular dream.

Cobb and Mel were in limbo for a "lifetime" and grew old together, they then proceeded to wake up and not a lot of time passed. Sure they were just dreaming, but being in limbo for so long, they still were ok.

 

[jzero23]

Originally Posted by jamminbyalias

Originally Posted by JZero23

Originally Posted by jamminbyalias

Originally Posted by JZero23

Can someone explain the reason why being in Limbo is so bad? Once you're down there, you just have to kill yourself then you are back to your normal self. Dude and his wife put their heads on the train tracks. The girl and the business guy both jumped off the building and woke up in level 3. He found the Japanese dude and they both shot themselves with the gun on the table.

So what's so bad about being in "limbo"? Too many plot holes in this movie.

It was a great movie, but it seemed like they wrote it as they went along, instead of thinking things through. If you can't die in a dream within a dream because you will be in limbo, but then if you die in limbo you are sent back, then what is there to worry about?

You may be able to kill yourself and get back to "reality"--but when you're stuck in limbo, you're so deep into the dream you may never realize you're dreaming-- you're lost for eternity. Saito and Mal could have easily been stuck in limbo forever (while their brain in 'reality' turned into mush) if Cobb didn't save them.

I don't agree that there are plot holes in the movie-- everything seemed well thought out and if you are questioning certain things in the movie-- they were most likely included (or not included) purposely for a reason (either to spark dialogue, theories, or whatever else with the film). Hell, Chris Nolan has been working on this movie for the past 10 years.

I have read in other forums that in all the 'reality scenes', Cobb is not wearing a wedding ring, and in all the 'dream sequences' he is. Someone has mentioned that you can clearly see Dom's ring finger both on the plane before going into the dream and after the inception when he awakes on the plane-- and in both scenes he is ring-less. But it is clear he has the ring on during the 'inception dream sequences'. This is proof enough for me that he was not dreaming at the end of the film. Why else would Nolan include a detail like that?

Damn some people are really reaching with their theories, not particularly on this board, but in general from what I have read in other forums.

When Ariadne and Cobb go back to get Mal and Fisher, they knew very well that a) they were in limbo and b) the only way out was to die. So Cobb knew how to get out of limbo since he's been there before and got out, correct? So when Saito got shot in dream 1, why not tell him to go to limbo and die, and then come back to them in tip top shape? Instead he made such a big stink about how going to limbo is the worst thing in eternity. Instead of telling them the way out of Limbo. 

To introduce a way to get out of dreams, then say you can't do it because blah blah, then do it at the end to get out of everything? That's a covered up plot hole man...

Because going into limbo is a risk, a HUGE risk. Once in limbo, you're so deep into the dream, that you don't know you're dreaming-- you can't differentiate between the dream and reality. Cobb and Ariadne were in limbo for seconds, they could remember the truth. Saito was in there for decades-- obviously he slowly forgot and limbo became his reality. Cobb ran just as much of a risk when he went into limbo to save Saito, he damn near forgot why he was there.

Saito didn't know what to do because Cobb didn't say, when you die, die again in limbo. He didn't disclose any info to the team, and it kinda screwed them over. After feeling guilty, he went to get Saito. Limbo became his reality because he didn't know what was going on. Had Cobb not been a selfish, self loathing bastard, he could have told the team what to expect and not kept all the skeletons in the closet. Limbo doesn't sound so bad when all you have to do is die, just like any regular dream.

Cobb and Mel were in limbo for a "lifetime" and grew old together, they then proceeded to wake up and not a lot of time passed. Sure they were just dreaming, but being in limbo for so long, they still were ok.

 

[nako xl]

ekon and unborn seed what parts did you want me to elaborate on?

 

[nako xl]

ekon and unborn seed what parts did you want me to elaborate on?

 

[jamminbyalias]

Originally Posted by JZero23

Originally Posted by jamminbyalias

Originally Posted by JZero23

Originally Posted by jamminbyalias

Originally Posted by JZero23

Can someone explain the reason why being in Limbo is so bad? Once you're down there, you just have to kill yourself then you are back to your normal self. Dude and his wife put their heads on the train tracks. The girl and the business guy both jumped off the building and woke up in level 3. He found the Japanese dude and they both shot themselves with the gun on the table.

So what's so bad about being in "limbo"? Too many plot holes in this movie.

It was a great movie, but it seemed like they wrote it as they went along, instead of thinking things through. If you can't die in a dream within a dream because you will be in limbo, but then if you die in limbo you are sent back, then what is there to worry about?

You may be able to kill yourself and get back to "reality"--but when you're stuck in limbo, you're so deep into the dream you may never realize you're dreaming-- you're lost for eternity. Saito and Mal could have easily been stuck in limbo forever (while their brain in 'reality' turned into mush) if Cobb didn't save them.

I don't agree that there are plot holes in the movie-- everything seemed well thought out and if you are questioning certain things in the movie-- they were most likely included (or not included) purposely for a reason (either to spark dialogue, theories, or whatever else with the film). Hell, Chris Nolan has been working on this movie for the past 10 years.

I have read in other forums that in all the 'reality scenes', Cobb is not wearing a wedding ring, and in all the 'dream sequences' he is. Someone has mentioned that you can clearly see Dom's ring finger both on the plane before going into the dream and after the inception when he awakes on the plane-- and in both scenes he is ring-less. But it is clear he has the ring on during the 'inception dream sequences'. This is proof enough for me that he was not dreaming at the end of the film. Why else would Nolan include a detail like that?

Damn some people are really reaching with their theories, not particularly on this board, but in general from what I have read in other forums.

When Ariadne and Cobb go back to get Mal and Fisher, they knew very well that a) they were in limbo and b) the only way out was to die. So Cobb knew how to get out of limbo since he's been there before and got out, correct? So when Saito got shot in dream 1, why not tell him to go to limbo and die, and then come back to them in tip top shape? Instead he made such a big stink about how going to limbo is the worst thing in eternity. Instead of telling them the way out of Limbo. 

To introduce a way to get out of dreams, then say you can't do it because blah blah, then do it at the end to get out of everything? That's a covered up plot hole man...

Because going into limbo is a risk, a HUGE risk. Once in limbo, you're so deep into the dream, that you don't know you're dreaming-- you can't differentiate between the dream and reality. Cobb and Ariadne were in limbo for seconds, they could remember the truth. Saito was in there for decades-- obviously he slowly forgot and limbo became his reality. Cobb ran just as much of a risk when he went into limbo to save Saito, he damn near forgot why he was there.

Saito didn't know what to do because Cobb didn't say, when you die, die again in limbo. He didn't disclose any info to the team, and it kinda screwed them over. After feeling guilty, he went to get Saito. Limbo became his reality because he didn't know what was going on. Had Cobb not been a selfish, self loathing bastard, he could have told the team what to expect and not kept all the skeletons in the closet. Limbo doesn't sound so bad when all you have to do is die, just like any regular dream.

Cobb and Mel were in limbo for a "lifetime" and grew old together, they then proceeded to wake up and not a lot of time passed. Sure they were just dreaming, but being in limbo for so long, they still were ok.

MrONegative summed it up in words better than I did. "The risk is that even though maybe an hour or two goes by in reality, you'll have spent decades and maybe centuries down there losing all sense of reality, and when you come back to the real world, you'll be brain dead or insane." Again, "brain dead or insane". They clearly explained it in the film , I don't understand what it is you're missing. On top of that, Saito didn't even have a damn totem, so he probably accepted limbo as reality so much quicker than Cobb, Mal, or Ariadne would have.

 

[jamminbyalias]

Originally Posted by JZero23

Originally Posted by jamminbyalias

Originally Posted by JZero23

Originally Posted by jamminbyalias

Originally Posted by JZero23

Can someone explain the reason why being in Limbo is so bad? Once you're down there, you just have to kill yourself then you are back to your normal self. Dude and his wife put their heads on the train tracks. The girl and the business guy both jumped off the building and woke up in level 3. He found the Japanese dude and they both shot themselves with the gun on the table.

So what's so bad about being in "limbo"? Too many plot holes in this movie.

It was a great movie, but it seemed like they wrote it as they went along, instead of thinking things through. If you can't die in a dream within a dream because you will be in limbo, but then if you die in limbo you are sent back, then what is there to worry about?

You may be able to kill yourself and get back to "reality"--but when you're stuck in limbo, you're so deep into the dream you may never realize you're dreaming-- you're lost for eternity. Saito and Mal could have easily been stuck in limbo forever (while their brain in 'reality' turned into mush) if Cobb didn't save them.

I don't agree that there are plot holes in the movie-- everything seemed well thought out and if you are questioning certain things in the movie-- they were most likely included (or not included) purposely for a reason (either to spark dialogue, theories, or whatever else with the film). Hell, Chris Nolan has been working on this movie for the past 10 years.

I have read in other forums that in all the 'reality scenes', Cobb is not wearing a wedding ring, and in all the 'dream sequences' he is. Someone has mentioned that you can clearly see Dom's ring finger both on the plane before going into the dream and after the inception when he awakes on the plane-- and in both scenes he is ring-less. But it is clear he has the ring on during the 'inception dream sequences'. This is proof enough for me that he was not dreaming at the end of the film. Why else would Nolan include a detail like that?

Damn some people are really reaching with their theories, not particularly on this board, but in general from what I have read in other forums.

When Ariadne and Cobb go back to get Mal and Fisher, they knew very well that a) they were in limbo and b) the only way out was to die. So Cobb knew how to get out of limbo since he's been there before and got out, correct? So when Saito got shot in dream 1, why not tell him to go to limbo and die, and then come back to them in tip top shape? Instead he made such a big stink about how going to limbo is the worst thing in eternity. Instead of telling them the way out of Limbo. 

To introduce a way to get out of dreams, then say you can't do it because blah blah, then do it at the end to get out of everything? That's a covered up plot hole man...

Because going into limbo is a risk, a HUGE risk. Once in limbo, you're so deep into the dream, that you don't know you're dreaming-- you can't differentiate between the dream and reality. Cobb and Ariadne were in limbo for seconds, they could remember the truth. Saito was in there for decades-- obviously he slowly forgot and limbo became his reality. Cobb ran just as much of a risk when he went into limbo to save Saito, he damn near forgot why he was there.

Saito didn't know what to do because Cobb didn't say, when you die, die again in limbo. He didn't disclose any info to the team, and it kinda screwed them over. After feeling guilty, he went to get Saito. Limbo became his reality because he didn't know what was going on. Had Cobb not been a selfish, self loathing bastard, he could have told the team what to expect and not kept all the skeletons in the closet. Limbo doesn't sound so bad when all you have to do is die, just like any regular dream.

Cobb and Mel were in limbo for a "lifetime" and grew old together, they then proceeded to wake up and not a lot of time passed. Sure they were just dreaming, but being in limbo for so long, they still were ok.

MrONegative summed it up in words better than I did. "The risk is that even though maybe an hour or two goes by in reality, you'll have spent decades and maybe centuries down there losing all sense of reality, and when you come back to the real world, you'll be brain dead or insane." Again, "brain dead or insane". They clearly explained it in the film , I don't understand what it is you're missing. On top of that, Saito didn't even have a damn totem, so he probably accepted limbo as reality so much quicker than Cobb, Mal, or Ariadne would have.

 

[ekon one]

Originally Posted by Nako XL

ekon and unborn seed what parts did you want me to elaborate on?

If I understood you correctly, you believe that they were able to go to Limbo through the "dream machine", but still retain the knowledge that they were in Limbo because they didn't enter into Limbo through "dying" (lol kind've confusing, but I believe this is what you were trying to say). This is a plausible theory, but as the idea of entering into Limbo through the "dream machine" was not in the film (and would be such a major part to the comprehension of the plot) I'm pretty sure it's just faulty filmmaking and writing on the part of Nolan. 
Nako I'm also interested in your take on the question I presented above about the diverging paths of Juno (

 yeah i know thats not really her name lol) and Fisher.

 

[ekon one]

Originally Posted by Nako XL

ekon and unborn seed what parts did you want me to elaborate on?

If I understood you correctly, you believe that they were able to go to Limbo through the "dream machine", but still retain the knowledge that they were in Limbo because they didn't enter into Limbo through "dying" (lol kind've confusing, but I believe this is what you were trying to say). This is a plausible theory, but as the idea of entering into Limbo through the "dream machine" was not in the film (and would be such a major part to the comprehension of the plot) I'm pretty sure it's just faulty filmmaking and writing on the part of Nolan. 
Nako I'm also interested in your take on the question I presented above about the diverging paths of Juno (

 yeah i know thats not really her name lol) and Fisher.

 

[sigmakidownz]

Originally Posted by thytkerjobs

lol at "Juno"

 

[sigmakidownz]

Originally Posted by thytkerjobs

lol at "Juno"

 

[nako xl]

Originally Posted by ekon one

Originally Posted by Nako XL

ekon and unborn seed what parts did you want me to elaborate on?

If I understood you correctly, you believe that they were able to go to Limbo through the "dream machine", but still retain the knowledge that they were in Limbo because they didn't enter into Limbo through "dying" (lol kind've confusing, but I believe this is what you were trying to say). This is a plausible theory, but as the idea of entering into Limbo through the "dream machine" was not in the film (and would be such a major part to the comprehension of the plot) I'm pretty sure it's just faulty filmmaking and writing on the part of Nolan. 
Nako I'm also interested in your take on the question I presented above about the diverging paths of Juno (

 yeah i know thats not really her name lol) and Fisher.

I think it might just be faulty writing on Nolan's part.  Saito was in Limbo for so much longer than them that he simply lost himself.

I think Limbo is just the nickname the characters give to that lowest level of dreaming that's so deep and vivid you're unsure if you're asleep or awake.  How you get there determines your awareness that you're in a dream state, i.e. Cobb and Ariadne doing so voluntarily as opposed to how Fischer and Saito get there.

My only explanation for how they entered Limbo with Fischer is Ariadne states "we should be able to follow him into his dream (limbo)" so that is how they were able to enter without dying.  someone was already there so they followed him to that level maintaining their lucidity while the dreamer, Fischer had already lost his and was unaware of where he was or how he got there

I'm not sure what your question above was I'm not seeing it in all the block quotes.  Can you repeat it for me?

 

[nako xl]

Originally Posted by ekon one

Originally Posted by Nako XL

ekon and unborn seed what parts did you want me to elaborate on?

If I understood you correctly, you believe that they were able to go to Limbo through the "dream machine", but still retain the knowledge that they were in Limbo because they didn't enter into Limbo through "dying" (lol kind've confusing, but I believe this is what you were trying to say). This is a plausible theory, but as the idea of entering into Limbo through the "dream machine" was not in the film (and would be such a major part to the comprehension of the plot) I'm pretty sure it's just faulty filmmaking and writing on the part of Nolan. 
Nako I'm also interested in your take on the question I presented above about the diverging paths of Juno (

 yeah i know thats not really her name lol) and Fisher.

I think it might just be faulty writing on Nolan's part.  Saito was in Limbo for so much longer than them that he simply lost himself.

I think Limbo is just the nickname the characters give to that lowest level of dreaming that's so deep and vivid you're unsure if you're asleep or awake.  How you get there determines your awareness that you're in a dream state, i.e. Cobb and Ariadne doing so voluntarily as opposed to how Fischer and Saito get there.

My only explanation for how they entered Limbo with Fischer is Ariadne states "we should be able to follow him into his dream (limbo)" so that is how they were able to enter without dying.  someone was already there so they followed him to that level maintaining their lucidity while the dreamer, Fischer had already lost his and was unaware of where he was or how he got there

I'm not sure what your question above was I'm not seeing it in all the block quotes.  Can you repeat it for me?

 

[oreomamba21]

Too many theories in this post now.

 

[oreomamba21]

Too many theories in this post now.

 

[mronegative]

Originally Posted by ekon one

Originally Posted by Nako XL

Originally Posted by TheHealthInspector

Originally Posted by UnbornSeed

Originally Posted by ekon one

Noskey wrote:

---

ekon one wrote:

---

**SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS OR GIVE THEIR OWN THEORY TO HELP SETTLE A DEBATE**:

How come Leo and Juno both were able to get into Limbo without killing themselves? I'm a pretty smart guy, but did I miss something? Currently I'm standing by the idea this is a major plot hole.

I think they went into Leo's dream together, not limbo. Then from there, Juno jumped off the building to get out of that dream, but Leo stayed behind to die with the collapsing building. Then he went into limbo alone.

But I'd need to see that whole scene again to be sure.

Nope, they (Juno and Leo) BOTH went into Limbo together as can be seen from the graphic above and it's stated in the movie. The contradiction and major plot hole is that Fisher had died and entered limbo. According to the facts presented in the movie he should have been in Limbo and not accesible to Leo and Juno unless they killed themselves in the third dream, which they did not. Leo and Juno SHOULD HAVE both entered a fourth dream through the "shared dream device", not Limbo.

UnbornSeed wrote:

---

ekon one wrote:

---

They plugged into a machine to get to the next dream. Only one in Limbo was Leo when he dies in the van underwater.

Keeping the discussion mature, I don't think you understood this part of the movie. It's clearly stated in the movie that Leo and Juno both entered Limbo after leaving the third dream, I'm backed up by the graphic posted as well. 

Again, I could in fact be the one who was mistaken and missed or misunderstood something in the movie, but I believe I haven't. I think this plot hole actually collapses the whole movie in on itself... 

. Anyone else have any other theories/information I may not have touched upon?

I watched it twice and I know for a fact that leo and juno hooked themselves to the machine to follow mal. whether that was limbo or not they didnt die so they couldn't have gone to limbo. From my grasp of the movie...leo dies in the van so he goes into limbo after saito.



i knew it, i kept reading comments all over the internet say that that they were in limbo but i kept questioning it because im pretty sure i remember seeing them (leo and ellen) connect themselves and fisher to another one of those machines in the third level, on top of that they revived fisher on the third level so he couldnt have been dead and if he were in limbo he'd probably be old(er) by the time they came to rescue him

i was positive that they came up with that 4th dream level on the fly, but i wasnt totally sure because people kept referring to it as limbo, thanks for pointing it out


They were in Limbo.  Fisher dies.  They say so explicitly.  They also explicitly refer to where they go as the limbo Leo and Mal shared.

We can say the characters themselves were mistaken in where they thought they were, but there's no reason to do so.  They don't hook Fisher to a machine to take him there, he's already there after Mal kills him.

Ellen DOES die in Limbo when she jumps off the building, this is her improvised kick, the same one that Mal attempts in the real world.  We're meant to believe that Leo himself wakes up from this kick and leaves Limbo but then dies before he can escape the van (we're not shown on which level he dies on) then returns to Limbo.

It could be a plot hole since Leo says you go to Limbo if you die, but you have to realize he never says this is the ONLY way to get to Limbo.  He just said it's a guaranteed way to go there.  I assume if you die in one dream then wake in Limbo the point is you're not aware that you're in Limbo.  They are able to kick themselves awake from it because they are fully aware that they are dreaming.  People who die are not aware that they're in Limbo because the dreams are so vivid and as far as they know they woke up from the prior dream that they had died in.


@Nako XL- I'm not quite sure I'm following you, could you elaborate more please? 
@Unborn Seed- Yeah, so pretty much you're agreeing with me- they should not have been in Limbo because they were hooked up to the machine. But how do you explain this major plot hole...


I'm pretty much trying to verify if this is indeed a plot hole or if I misunderstood something in the movie.

For my graphic to hold true, you have to hold the following as fact:

1. You can only reach Limbo through dying

2. Saito and Fisher did in fact die

3. Leo and Juno did not kill themselves in the third dream, but instead hooked themselves up to the "dream machine" and then entered into another dream.

So how was Juno able to retrieve Fisher when there paths should have diverged following the third dream?


Limbo is like gravity. It's the basement. If something very bad happens or you fall out of your dreams completely, but don't wake up. You fall into a coma state or limbo. Mal and Cobb did a little to much experimenting and found a way down there. Then the built this island of dreams over decades. The problem with limbo is that time is as far away from reality as possible. It's not 10 minutes = an hour or a day, but more minutes in the real world are decades or centuries there. Cobb knows how to get down there (when Ariadne jumped into his dream that one time), and has the will to not forget what's real. Something his chick didn't. So there isn't a 4th dream, only limbo. It's a basement everyone who shares a dream with him shares, so in a way, they fall into his dream.

Basically, you shouldn't be able to reach limbo at all, but the chemist's drugs were so strong that instead of floating to the top when you die, your mind sinks into limbo. Cobb and Mal figured out how to dive down there. While they were there, they built these 'sandcastles.'

 

[mronegative]

Originally Posted by ekon one

Originally Posted by Nako XL

Originally Posted by TheHealthInspector

Originally Posted by UnbornSeed

Originally Posted by ekon one

Noskey wrote:

---

ekon one wrote:

---

**SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS OR GIVE THEIR OWN THEORY TO HELP SETTLE A DEBATE**:

How come Leo and Juno both were able to get into Limbo without killing themselves? I'm a pretty smart guy, but did I miss something? Currently I'm standing by the idea this is a major plot hole.

I think they went into Leo's dream together, not limbo. Then from there, Juno jumped off the building to get out of that dream, but Leo stayed behind to die with the collapsing building. Then he went into limbo alone.

But I'd need to see that whole scene again to be sure.

Nope, they (Juno and Leo) BOTH went into Limbo together as can be seen from the graphic above and it's stated in the movie. The contradiction and major plot hole is that Fisher had died and entered limbo. According to the facts presented in the movie he should have been in Limbo and not accesible to Leo and Juno unless they killed themselves in the third dream, which they did not. Leo and Juno SHOULD HAVE both entered a fourth dream through the "shared dream device", not Limbo.

UnbornSeed wrote:

---

ekon one wrote:

---

They plugged into a machine to get to the next dream. Only one in Limbo was Leo when he dies in the van underwater.

Keeping the discussion mature, I don't think you understood this part of the movie. It's clearly stated in the movie that Leo and Juno both entered Limbo after leaving the third dream, I'm backed up by the graphic posted as well. 

Again, I could in fact be the one who was mistaken and missed or misunderstood something in the movie, but I believe I haven't. I think this plot hole actually collapses the whole movie in on itself... 

. Anyone else have any other theories/information I may not have touched upon?

I watched it twice and I know for a fact that leo and juno hooked themselves to the machine to follow mal. whether that was limbo or not they didnt die so they couldn't have gone to limbo. From my grasp of the movie...leo dies in the van so he goes into limbo after saito.



i knew it, i kept reading comments all over the internet say that that they were in limbo but i kept questioning it because im pretty sure i remember seeing them (leo and ellen) connect themselves and fisher to another one of those machines in the third level, on top of that they revived fisher on the third level so he couldnt have been dead and if he were in limbo he'd probably be old(er) by the time they came to rescue him

i was positive that they came up with that 4th dream level on the fly, but i wasnt totally sure because people kept referring to it as limbo, thanks for pointing it out


They were in Limbo.  Fisher dies.  They say so explicitly.  They also explicitly refer to where they go as the limbo Leo and Mal shared.

We can say the characters themselves were mistaken in where they thought they were, but there's no reason to do so.  They don't hook Fisher to a machine to take him there, he's already there after Mal kills him.

Ellen DOES die in Limbo when she jumps off the building, this is her improvised kick, the same one that Mal attempts in the real world.  We're meant to believe that Leo himself wakes up from this kick and leaves Limbo but then dies before he can escape the van (we're not shown on which level he dies on) then returns to Limbo.

It could be a plot hole since Leo says you go to Limbo if you die, but you have to realize he never says this is the ONLY way to get to Limbo.  He just said it's a guaranteed way to go there.  I assume if you die in one dream then wake in Limbo the point is you're not aware that you're in Limbo.  They are able to kick themselves awake from it because they are fully aware that they are dreaming.  People who die are not aware that they're in Limbo because the dreams are so vivid and as far as they know they woke up from the prior dream that they had died in.


@Nako XL- I'm not quite sure I'm following you, could you elaborate more please? 
@Unborn Seed- Yeah, so pretty much you're agreeing with me- they should not have been in Limbo because they were hooked up to the machine. But how do you explain this major plot hole...


I'm pretty much trying to verify if this is indeed a plot hole or if I misunderstood something in the movie.

For my graphic to hold true, you have to hold the following as fact:

1. You can only reach Limbo through dying

2. Saito and Fisher did in fact die

3. Leo and Juno did not kill themselves in the third dream, but instead hooked themselves up to the "dream machine" and then entered into another dream.

So how was Juno able to retrieve Fisher when there paths should have diverged following the third dream?


Limbo is like gravity. It's the basement. If something very bad happens or you fall out of your dreams completely, but don't wake up. You fall into a coma state or limbo. Mal and Cobb did a little to much experimenting and found a way down there. Then the built this island of dreams over decades. The problem with limbo is that time is as far away from reality as possible. It's not 10 minutes = an hour or a day, but more minutes in the real world are decades or centuries there. Cobb knows how to get down there (when Ariadne jumped into his dream that one time), and has the will to not forget what's real. Something his chick didn't. So there isn't a 4th dream, only limbo. It's a basement everyone who shares a dream with him shares, so in a way, they fall into his dream.

Basically, you shouldn't be able to reach limbo at all, but the chemist's drugs were so strong that instead of floating to the top when you die, your mind sinks into limbo. Cobb and Mal figured out how to dive down there. While they were there, they built these 'sandcastles.'

 

[nako xl]

Originally Posted by MrONegative

Originally Posted by ekon one

Originally Posted by Nako XL

Originally Posted by TheHealthInspector

Originally Posted by UnbornSeed

Originally Posted by ekon one

Noskey wrote:

---

ekon one wrote:

---

@Nako XL- I'm not quite sure I'm following you, could you elaborate more please? 
@Unborn Seed- Yeah, so pretty much you're agreeing with me- they should not have been in Limbo because they were hooked up to the machine. But how do you explain this major plot hole...


I'm pretty much trying to verify if this is indeed a plot hole or if I misunderstood something in the movie.

For my graphic to hold true, you have to hold the following as fact:

1. You can only reach Limbo through dying

2. Saito and Fisher did in fact die

3. Leo and Juno did not kill themselves in the third dream, but instead hooked themselves up to the "dream machine" and then entered into another dream.

So how was Juno able to retrieve Fisher when there paths should have diverged following the third dream?


Limbo is like gravity. It's the basement. If something very bad happens or you fall out of your dreams completely, but don't wake up. You fall into a coma state or limbo. Mal and Cobb did a little to much experimenting and found a way down there. Then the built this island of dreams over decades. The problem with limbo is that time is as far away from reality as possible. It's not 10 minutes = an hour or a day, but more minutes in the real world are decades or centuries there. Cobb knows how to get down there (when Ariadne jumped into his dream that one time), and has the will to not forget what's real. Something his chick didn't. So there isn't a 4th dream, only limbo. It's a basement everyone who shares a dream with him shares, so in a way, they fall into his dream.

Basically, you shouldn't be able to reach limbo at all, but the chemist's drugs were so strong that instead of floating to the top when you die, your mind sinks into limbo. Cobb and Mal figured out how to dive down there. While they were there, they built these 'sandcastles.'


Ohhh this was his question.

Ok then yes, Limbo is the deepest level of dreaming.  It's not the "4th level" but rather a coma state and as deep as you can go into the dream state.

This is confusing but: Fisher was sharing a dream with Cobb and Cobb's projection (essentially Cobb's mind, his guilt) "killed" and then kidnapped Fisher and took him to Cobb's limbo.  Not Fisher's.  Remember Mal is a radical projection of Cobb's mind.  They were able to follow Fisher BECAUSE they were in a shared dream and therefore when he entered Limbo all they had to do was enter his further dream state.  I also think we're meant to understand that since it was Mal essentially kidnapping fisher, Limbo was in fact Cobb's dream.

Notice Saito is not in that state of limbo with them because he was not "kidnapped" by Mal and the only person that follows him in to his own is Cobb, presumably through death or even by returning to the third level and then going to him.

I think this was simply poorly explained and delved into and thus became really confusing and somewhat of a plot hole.  I understand that if every minute detail was explained meticulously the movie would have ended up being over four hours long, but Nolan had to have known that viewers would pick this film apart for inconsistencies like this.  I think we're supposed to just accept this as what happened and move on.

I don't blame you for being confused though.

 

[nako xl]

Originally Posted by MrONegative

Originally Posted by ekon one

Originally Posted by Nako XL

Originally Posted by TheHealthInspector

Originally Posted by UnbornSeed

Originally Posted by ekon one

Noskey wrote:

---

ekon one wrote:

---

@Nako XL- I'm not quite sure I'm following you, could you elaborate more please? 
@Unborn Seed- Yeah, so pretty much you're agreeing with me- they should not have been in Limbo because they were hooked up to the machine. But how do you explain this major plot hole...


I'm pretty much trying to verify if this is indeed a plot hole or if I misunderstood something in the movie.

For my graphic to hold true, you have to hold the following as fact:

1. You can only reach Limbo through dying

2. Saito and Fisher did in fact die

3. Leo and Juno did not kill themselves in the third dream, but instead hooked themselves up to the "dream machine" and then entered into another dream.

So how was Juno able to retrieve Fisher when there paths should have diverged following the third dream?


Limbo is like gravity. It's the basement. If something very bad happens or you fall out of your dreams completely, but don't wake up. You fall into a coma state or limbo. Mal and Cobb did a little to much experimenting and found a way down there. Then the built this island of dreams over decades. The problem with limbo is that time is as far away from reality as possible. It's not 10 minutes = an hour or a day, but more minutes in the real world are decades or centuries there. Cobb knows how to get down there (when Ariadne jumped into his dream that one time), and has the will to not forget what's real. Something his chick didn't. So there isn't a 4th dream, only limbo. It's a basement everyone who shares a dream with him shares, so in a way, they fall into his dream.

Basically, you shouldn't be able to reach limbo at all, but the chemist's drugs were so strong that instead of floating to the top when you die, your mind sinks into limbo. Cobb and Mal figured out how to dive down there. While they were there, they built these 'sandcastles.'


Ohhh this was his question.

Ok then yes, Limbo is the deepest level of dreaming.  It's not the "4th level" but rather a coma state and as deep as you can go into the dream state.

This is confusing but: Fisher was sharing a dream with Cobb and Cobb's projection (essentially Cobb's mind, his guilt) "killed" and then kidnapped Fisher and took him to Cobb's limbo.  Not Fisher's.  Remember Mal is a radical projection of Cobb's mind.  They were able to follow Fisher BECAUSE they were in a shared dream and therefore when he entered Limbo all they had to do was enter his further dream state.  I also think we're meant to understand that since it was Mal essentially kidnapping fisher, Limbo was in fact Cobb's dream.

Notice Saito is not in that state of limbo with them because he was not "kidnapped" by Mal and the only person that follows him in to his own is Cobb, presumably through death or even by returning to the third level and then going to him.

I think this was simply poorly explained and delved into and thus became really confusing and somewhat of a plot hole.  I understand that if every minute detail was explained meticulously the movie would have ended up being over four hours long, but Nolan had to have known that viewers would pick this film apart for inconsistencies like this.  I think we're supposed to just accept this as what happened and move on.

I don't blame you for being confused though.

 

[kix4kix]

well done film

 

[kix4kix]

well done film

 

[aveezythebeast]

saw it again yesterday. Now I see it clearly

 

[aveezythebeast]

saw it again yesterday. Now I see it clearly

 

[badjustin]

it wasnt a dream. look at leo's kid at the first part, the kid was wearing leather shoes and at the last part the kid was already wearing chuck taylors.

 

[badjustin]

it wasnt a dream. look at leo's kid at the first part, the kid was wearing leather shoes and at the last part the kid was already wearing chuck taylors.