SPECIFIC Skills of Individual NBA Players That You Feel Are Overrated?

[ericberry14]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

[color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]The main reason that I put Lebron above shane is that most permiter players can't make there hole team defense better tha way a dominateing center can. Lebron with is tenacity in the passing lanes and his increibde lane intimidation is the only perimiter player who can really do this.[/color]

[color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]Is Shane a smarter defender sure, but Lebron is far more dominating.[/color]

Where does Lebron intimidate people in the lane? When does this occur? I must have missed all those games when people altered their shots due toLebron... wait... that never happened...

Lebron gets the majority of his blocks coming from behind or coming from the weak side... so please just stop that ridiculous idea that lebron intimidatesplayers driving in the lane...

and no Lebron is not a more dominating defender than Shane Battier... Lebron just doesnt play against the best player that often... that's the only reasonhis "great D" is even thought of as such...

Lebron is a better defender than Shane Battier...

 

[jsindaa]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:

So other Than Ben Wallace who is a better defender on his own team?

Osh Kosh Bosh, i could already tell that you don't watch the NBA (outside of the Raptors) and just look at boxscores to form your opinions. but your posts lately have just confirmed it.

Delonte West is the best perimeter defender on the Cavs. watch Cleveland play. West will guard the opposing teams best perimeter player for 38-40 minutes, and Lebron will take over for maybe 2 minutes, or on a crucial possession or two.


furthermore, you have just about ZERO credibility left after saying Lebron is the best perimeter defender in the league. you can't honestly believe that, can you?

i never thought Kidd was a good defender.

i have to ask your age. i can understand you thinking that by watching him play now. he looks slow and lazy on defense these days, and is clearly in the twilight of his career. but in his prime, he was incredible defensively.

What a terrible, terrible post. Full of snide douchbaggery and just drenched with self importance and and incredible (and false) sense of superiority.

The FUNDAMENTAL difference between me and most other sports fan is that I am simply not arrogant enough to believe that everything I see and think is 100% accurate. I question everything without ego and try and remain as objective as possible. Statistics are the most objective way we have to measure things and there is no way I am going to ignore this wealth of information at our finger tips.

The idea that I am without the ability to critically about the stats that I do read is absolutely foolish and incredibly presumptuous. I just do not feel comfortable making statements about thing with out having some sort of objective measuring stick.

There are plenty of times where my opinion contradict statistics, such as Andrea Bargnani vs Lamarcus Aldridge, or Steve Nash's rank as a great NBA player or even Allen Iverson's "overratedness".

Now about the Lebron thing, let me get one thing state I very much dislike Lebron James and saying anything good about him pains me too my heart. Also I am not going to sit here and try and convince you how much basketball I watch, because unlike most NBA fans I realize that unless you are a fan of that team even If you have the NBA league pass like I do, you cannot try and pretend like you have seen that many Cavs games.

There is not enough time in the day.

Now am I crazy for thinking that the player who gives up the smallest amount of points on the 3rd best defensive team in the league is a great defender? Oh *%!# well damn color me bat *%!# insane!!.

Oh damn how crazy am I, watching him just throttle any defensive assignment make me think he is a good defender well I guess it's schizophrenia!!

Also A feat usually reserved for centers, him playing the passing lanes and providing ridiculous help defense and blocking shots into the the stratosphere from the small forward position...*%!# well I should lay off of the %%#$#%! mushrooms.

You can disagree, whatever, but stop this I lost credibility none sense...

i'm sorry if i came at you the wrong way.. it's just that you stay coming on here with these random stats, and you make blanket conclusions from them as if you don't even watch the games. i'm not saying you don't watch the games because i can't claim to know, but that's how you come across. i'm not completely bashing all the stuff you post, BTW.. the Yao vs Dwight stats you posted are significant and i was just about to bring up Dwight's mythical "dominant" post game in this very thread...

but regardless... using those defensive statistics (which, no matter how individualized one tries to make them, will always be heavily skewed towards team defense - the Cavs have a great defensive scheme), to say Lebron is the best perimeter defender in the league is a little off, and kind of sounds like someone got caught up in the hype train.


the stats indicate that Lebron is the best defender on the 3rd best defensive team... all we can draw from those stats is that he was a great defender this season. any other superlatives, like "best perimeter defender in the league", were clearly added on by you and have to actually be supported by on-court evidence. if you watched the NBA this season and came to the conclusion that Lebron is a better perimeter defender than Shane Battier, i don't know what to tell you.

up until this season, Lebron was never even considered a defensive player. it's funny how we went from "wow, he is actually playing defense this year" at the beginning of the season, to "best perimeter defender in the league" by the end of the season.. and those statements just so happened to coincide with the steady increase of Lebron's hype as the season went on.

Lebron puts up great defensive stats... steals, blocks, defensive rebounds... but all that means is that he can run fast and jump high. while great on help defense, he is not an elite lockdown defender in this league yet.


I have long been in the camp up until this year that lebron was an inconsistent defender but when I watch this dude really try to shut someone down, he unlike batteir has the athletic ability like Artest used to in his prime to just smother people. Shane is great becuase he just out smarts people and is smart enough to not try to get up in someones grill when he ckknows he can't stay with them (Ron Artest)

The main reason that I put Lebron above shane is that most permiter players can't make there hole team defense better tha way a dominateing center can. Shane can smother Kobe all day but he is not going to effect every other player the Yao can or Dwight can. Lebron with is tenacity in the passing lanes and his increibde lane intimidation is the only perimiter player who can really do this. It's like the difference between Nnamdi Asomugha and Asante Samuel. You can cover dude all day but Asante can help his entire team more than Nnamdi does.

Is Shane a smarter defender sure, but Lebron is far more dominating.



And this is exactly why you are wrong. Bron is a great TEAM defender...but on ball not so much. Sure he's improved but since when is completely shuttingdown(or making him very inefficient) your opponents best player not making the whole team defense better? Furthermore to suggest(don't know if that was younecessarily) that Delonte isn't the best perimeter defender on the Cavs is ridiculous and is a clear sign of not watching them at all. Bron has yet to takeon the opposing teams best player and completely shut him down. He just does not do it...and when he tries its for no more than 5 minutes. Take the Lakers forexample he didn't guard Kobe AT ALL until the 4th quarter...halfway through at that. Or the Hawks series....guess who guarded JJ? Mr. West. So all we canreally say is he's a great "free safety" in their system. Using the stats messes up your argument (pretty much any argument honestly) even more,considering that basketball is a game completely based on situationals. The only real way to get a clear opinion on these players is to watch night in andnight out. If you can do that...and say that LeBron James is the best perimeter defender in the league...I don't know what to tell you.

 

[kb8isclutch]

Originally Posted by ericberry14

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

I been saying Kobe only plays D sometimes, more than half the time he's just chillin on D.

People saying LeBron's D is overrated need to really watch dude is the best perimeter defender in the league and has made huge strides since his rookie year, plus he plays the best free safety in basketball.


Defensive Rating (Points allowed per 100 possessions)

[table][tr][td]1.[/td] [td]Dwight Howard-ORL[/td] [td]94.6[/td] [/tr][tr][td]2.[/td] [td]Kevin Garnett-BOS[/td] [td]97.5[/td] [/tr][tr][td]3.[/td] [td]LeBron James-CLE[/td] [td]99.1[/td] [/tr][tr][td]4.[/td] [td]Anderson Varejao-CLE[/td] [td]100.0[/td] [/tr][tr][td]5.[/td] [td]Kendrick Perkins-BOS[/td] [td]100.2[/td] [/tr][tr][td]6.[/td] [td]Tim Duncan-SAS[/td] [td]100.2[/td] [/tr][tr][td]7.[/td] [td]Zydrunas Ilgauskas-CLE[/td] [td]100.5[/td] [/tr][tr][td]8.[/td] [td]Chris Andersen-DEN[/td] [td]100.6[/td] [/tr][tr][td]9.[/td] [td]Yao Ming-HOU[/td] [td]100.8[/td] [/tr][tr][td]10.[/td] [td]Rajon Rondo-BOS[/td] [td]100.9[/td] [/tr][/table]

and the only wing player in the top 10 in defensive rating

did you fail to see Rajon Rondo right there at 10?

but Lebron's D is overrated by jsut about everybody now a days... probably because his TEAM has the best overall D in the league... so of course his individual D is going to be inflated because of it

exactly. look at all the top players on that list. everyone one of those teams are known for their defense. minus dwight howard

 

[guerrilla warfare]

tmoney85 wrote:

---

lebrons defense, dude NEVER guards the best player on the floor

Wade too

 

[531]

lol @ osh kosh bosh trying to pull the "I dislike Lebron" card to save himself.

Even the Lebron haters starting to believe this BS hype that Lebron is some defensive god.

Prettyplaya must've got to you.

 

[ballinboykz]

Originally Posted by Chester McFloppy

Andrea Bargnani's athleticism.

 

[bdavis5]

stephen jackson's passing

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by JsindaA

And this is exactly why you are wrong. Bron is a great TEAM defender...but on ball not so much.

TEAM DEFENSE IS NOT APART OF DEFENSE???!!.

Dwight Howard is a bad man to man defender, Ben Wallace is a mediocre man to man defender but there is a reason they are DPOY, there presence in the lane makesEVERYONE better.

So this year, not last year Lebron has not been at least a good man to man defender?? Cmon man...

Sure he's improved but since when is completely shutting down(or making him very inefficient) your opponents best player not making the whole team defense better?
Not in the same why that Lebron's presence in the passing lanes, or his weak side help defense does.

Furthermore to suggest(don't know if that was you necessarily) that Delonte isn't the best perimeter defender on the Cavs is ridiculous and is a clear sign of not watching them at all. Bron has yet to take on the opposing teams best player and completely shut him down. He just does not do it...and when he tries its for no more than 5 minutes. Take the Lakers for example he didn't guard Kobe AT ALL until the 4th quarter...halfway through at that. Or the Hawks series....guess who guarded JJ? Mr. West.
Of course you don't have your best player expend his energy on the defensive end, but when it matters when they need a stop who do they put onthe best player? If West was the best defender he would be on them when it matters. Nobody shuts anybody down in the NBA, this is a myth generated by whimsicalbasketball fans.

So all we can really say is he's a great "free safety" in their system.
So you agree?

Using the stats messes up your argument (pretty much any argument honestly) even more, considering that basketball is a game completely based on situational.
No.

After 82+ games it evens out, this would only be truein a small sample size.

The only real way to get a clear opinion on these players is to watch night in and night out. If you can do that...and say that LeBron James is the best perimeter defender in the league...I don't know what to tell you.

Which you don't and I don't. Stop lying son nobody watches every team night in and night out we watch what we can and we have things likestats to help paint the picture.


Now that I've have approached your points I have a couple questions.

1. Is Rasheed Wallace a better defensive player than Wallace.
2. Is Kendrick Perkins a better defender than Dwight Howard.
3. If West is a better defender than Lebron how come he allows more points per 100 possesions than


[h3][size=-1]Lerbon James / Off Court stats[/size][/h3][size=-1]Many stats are shown on a 'per 48minute' basis
[/size][table][tr][td]

[size=-1]Stat[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]ON Court[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]OFF Court[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]Net[/size]​

[/td] [/tr][tr][td]

[size=-1]Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]101.3[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]109.6[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]-8.4[/size]​

[/td] [/tr][tr][td]

[size=-1]Effective FG% Allowed[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]46.4%[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]48.1%[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]-1.7%[/size]​

[/td] [/tr][/table]
The Cavs allow 8 more points when Lebron James is not in the game

[h3][size=-1]Delonto West On Court / Off Court stats[/size][/h3][table][tr][td]

[size=-1]Stat[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]ON Court[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]OFF Court[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]Net[/size]​

[/td] [/tr][tr][td]

[size=-1]Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]99.8[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]107.1[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]-7.3[/size]​

[/td] [/tr][tr][td]

[size=-1]Effective FG%[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]52.9%[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]50.8%[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]+2.1%[/size]​

[/td] [/tr][/table][size=-1]

HMMMMMMMMMMmmmm?

[/size]

 

[cj003]

-Kevin Garnets Defense. im sorry but homie gets WORKED by the elite pf's

-Dirks athletic ability. Just because you are tall and can shoot does not mean you are athletic. Ive never seen him dunk on anyone/dribble past someone/block ashot...he has a nice post game, but aint very athletic. skilled is the word I think of when I think of Dirk

-Lamarcus Aldridge(sp?)'s ability as a pf. dude does nothing beside shoot jumpers from 15 ft. When dude gets an inside game then ill consider him and upand coming pf

-Lamar Odoms VERSITILITY. really dude can't shoot the 3 no more(could when he was young, don't no how he lost it). only offensive move he has isdriving left. he never makes it, there is always a whistle for a charge or block.

thats all i got for now

 

[swyftdahoe]

Kobe's defense = way overrated. Maybe if it's just a 1 possession game, sure (because his ability is top-notch no doubt). But it isn't andproduction matters. Stop putting him on 1st team All-defense! Ugh.


Kevin Garnett's "passion" = way overrated. Stop barking in a suit. Ugh.

 

[daprescription]

Originally Posted by BDavis5

stephen jackson's passing

Who ever said that? Bob Fitzgerald?

 

[Case]

shaq.

 

[noneofyours25]

Lebron's passing

Andrew Bynum's toughness

 

[jay y kay]

Andrew Bynum's potential.

 

[extraordinary swag]

Rodney Stuckey's potential - Will Bynum is 10x better than him

when people would say Rasheed Wallace "could be the best player in the NBA if he tried" - dude has no athleticism, doesn't body up on D, highlyinconsistent offensive game

CP3's defense - all he does is play the passing lanes well, he can't stay in front of many players with handles and gets bodied by bigger guards

Manu Ginobili's "craftiness" - he travels and flops a ton and the refs seem to never call it

Kendrick Perkins defense - as of late the media been slurping him, he doesn't contest shots of big men or players that can dunk on him (ie. Lebron andDwight)

JJ Redick's jumper - has not had a lights out game since he left Duke, Stan Van kept him in way too long last night

Andray Blatche's "potential" - dude sucks, end of story

 

[pretty toney]

Originally Posted by Bigmike23

Osh Kosh Bosh, i could already tell that you don't watch the NBA (outside of the Raptors) and just look at boxscores to form your opinions. but your posts lately have just confirmed it.

Every time I see that screen name...I know I'll see apretty little table with a bunch of numbers in it too.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Originally Posted by CJ003

-Dirks athletic ability. Just because you are tall and can shoot does not mean you are athletic. Ive never seen him dunk on anyone/dribble past someone/block a shot...he has a nice post game, but aint very athletic. skilled is the word I think of when I think of Dirk
thats all i got for now

Who has EVER called Dirk athletic though

 

[jsindaa]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by JsindaA

And this is exactly why you are wrong. Bron is a great TEAM defender...but on ball not so much.

TEAM DEFENSE IS NOT APART OF DEFENSE???!!.

Dwight Howard is a bad man to man defender, Ben Wallace is a mediocre man to man defender but there is a reason they are DPOY, there presence in the lane makes EVERYONE better.

So this year, not last year Lebron has not been at least a good man to man defender?? Cmon man...

Sure he's improved but since when is completely shutting down(or making him very inefficient) your opponents best player not making the whole team defense better?

Not in the same why that Lebron's presence in the passing lanes, or his weak side help defense does.

Furthermore to suggest(don't know if that was you necessarily) that Delonte isn't the best perimeter defender on the Cavs is ridiculous and is a clear sign of not watching them at all. Bron has yet to take on the opposing teams best player and completely shut him down. He just does not do it...and when he tries its for no more than 5 minutes. Take the Lakers for example he didn't guard Kobe AT ALL until the 4th quarter...halfway through at that. Or the Hawks series....guess who guarded JJ? Mr. West.
Of course you don't have your best player expend his energy on the defensive end, but when it matters when they need a stop who do they put on the best player? If West was the best defender he would be on them when it matters. Nobody shuts anybody down in the NBA, this is a myth generated by whimsical basketball fans.

So all we can really say is he's a great "free safety" in their system.
So you agree?

Using the stats messes up your argument (pretty much any argument honestly) even more, considering that basketball is a game completely based on situational.
No.

After 82+ games it evens out, this would only be true in a small sample size.

The only real way to get a clear opinion on these players is to watch night in and night out. If you can do that...and say that LeBron James is the best perimeter defender in the league...I don't know what to tell you.

Which you don't and I don't. Stop lying son nobody watches every team night in and night out we watch what we can and we have things like stats to help paint the picture.


Now that I've have approached your points I have a couple questions.

1. Is Rasheed Wallace a better defensive player than Wallace.
2. Is Kendrick Perkins a better defender than Dwight Howard.
3. If West is a better defender than Lebron how come he allows more points per 100 possesions than


[h3][size=-1]Lerbon James / Off Court stats[/size][/h3][size=-1]Many stats are shown on a 'per 48 minute' basis
[/size] [table][tr][td]

[size=-1]Stat[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]ON Court[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]OFF Court[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]Net[/size]​

[/td] [/tr][tr][td]

[size=-1]Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]101.3[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]109.6[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]-8.4[/size]​

[/td] [/tr][tr][td]

[size=-1]Effective FG% Allowed[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]46.4%[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]48.1%[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]-1.7%[/size]​

[/td] [/tr][/table]
The Cavs allow 8 more points when Lebron James is not in the game

[h3][size=-1]Delonto West On Court / Off Court stats[/size][/h3] [table][tr][td]

[size=-1]Stat[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]ON Court[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]OFF Court[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]Net[/size]​

[/td] [/tr][tr][td]

[size=-1]Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]99.8[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]107.1[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]-7.3[/size]​

[/td] [/tr][tr][td]

[size=-1]Effective FG%[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]52.9%[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]50.8%[/size]​

[/td] [td]

[size=-1]+2.1%[/size]​

[/td] [/tr][/table][size=-1]

HMMMMMMMMMMmmmm?

[/size]

Wanna point out where in my post I said team D wasn't apart of D? I'll wait. While your at it show me where I said Bron wasn't a goodon ball defender this year. Why wouldn't you have your best player play both sides? That makes no sense and that's the mindset a lot of dumb fans havenow days. If you are the best you should not only come to score, pass, etc. but play D also. Which, while he was improved this year, isn't something we cansay about Bron YET. Nobody shuts anybody down? Wow...thats just false. I already said he was a great team defender...so I don't know why you would ask if Iagree. And uh.....where did I say I watch every game? I said watch the players night in and night out which I do because I live in Akron. I've seen prettymuch every single game he's ever played since like his junior year. Never ever ever ever ever has the thought...he's the best perimeter defender in theleague...crossed my mind let alone pass through my lips (fingers in this case). And I've already said Delonte guards the best perimeter player every gameso why would you post that stat? If you aren't guarding that great of a player...of course he won't score as much as the best player on said team.I'm done with you though...ALL you ever do is post meaningless stats as if they somehow prove the outlandish statements you make.

 

[vsano]

Originally Posted by tmoney85

lebrons defense, dude NEVER guards the best player on the floor

Wade too

co-sign...they'll never get that defensive player of the year award...

 

[quik1987]

Originally Posted by Vsano

Originally Posted by tmoney85

lebrons defense, dude NEVER guards the best player on the floor




Wade too

co-sign...they'll never get that defensive player of the year award...

How often does Dwight Howard guard the best player on the floor? Oh, and Lebron only came in 2nd this year.

 

[clutchshooter]

every single perimeter player's defense.

no one has the ability to stay infront of their man anymore, steals are made almost soley in the passing lane, etc

.

 

[Mister Meaner]

Originally Posted by viiheaven

David Lee forgot how to play defense. I don't blame him, pre-D'Antoni he was learning, getting better every game. But when D'Antoni came to town, they would have gotten rid of him if he didn't improve his offense. So he had to ditch defense to improve offense. I hope they re-sign him

I don't remember any dudes overrating Lee's defense. However, I do agree that D'Antoni's presence has hindered his defensiveprogression. I'm just hoping Lee gets resigned and continues to do work season in and season out.

 

[koolkatz]

lebron james dunks are weak as %!!* all he does is the same +*%+#%+ dunks ever since he came to the nba since 2004
kobe dunks are way better then lebron weak !@$ dunks

 

[tmoney85]

Originally Posted by quik1987

Originally Posted by Vsano

Originally Posted by tmoney85

lebrons defense, dude NEVER guards the best player on the floor




Wade too

co-sign...they'll never get that defensive player of the year award...

How often does Dwight Howard guard the best player on the floor? Oh, and Lebron only came in 2nd this year.

Howard changes every single shot that comes in. If teh best player in teh league decides to drive in, Howard will be there to alter the shot. Plus he can grab 15 rebounds on any given night. Plus he'll guard KG, Dirk, Pau, Yao, Shaq when he plays these respective players, so YES, he does guardreally really great players.

 

[marionthebarberian]

Originally Posted by tmoney85

Originally Posted by quik1987

Vsano wrote:

---

tmoney85 wrote:

---

lebrons defense, dude NEVER guards the best player on the floor










Wade too

co-sign...they'll never get that defensive player of the year award...

How often does Dwight Howard guard the best player on the floor? Oh, and Lebron only came in 2nd this year.
Howard changes every single shot that comes in. If teh best player in teh league decides to drive in, Howard will be there to alter the shot. Plus he can grab 15 rebounds on any given night. Plus he'll guard KG, Dirk, Pau, Yao, Shaq when he plays these respective players, so YES, he does guard really really great players.




he does not guard Dirk.