(Spoilers) ASOIAF Books Discussion (All Books Read Edition) (Spoilers)

[tdogg2k]

Scumbag sansa. She knew ramsay would come out. But that was no surprisem. Jon even knew that thats why he baited him even further with his comment.

I saw people trying to compare it to what robb did to recapture jamie. Which again can not be compared.
Shes a scumbag her personal vendetta caused the lives of 1000s

 

[Barbados Slim]

To people questioning Sansa keeping the Vail a secret from Jon, I don't think we should totally dismiss the idea that she knowingly used the wildlings and Jon's army as bait to lure Ramsay out of Winterfell.

Are you sure about that? Didn't she want Jon to wait a bit longer or at least ask her for her advice? If she was planning to use Jon and his men as bait she would have kept quiet once she learned Jon was gonna attack.

 

[nako xl]

But when Jon asked her specifically for any advice or info that would change their battle plan she looked at him and hushed up. He said specifically "we don't have any one else who will help." For whatever reason - embarrassment in case he didn't come, fear of Jon calling her a fool, fear of blame in case little finger betrayed them - she didn't want Jon to know about the knights and she let them organize a plan that would result in their certain death and barely said anything.

Sure she said don't do what he wants you to do, but she could have ensured they didn't by telling them about the cavalry. She chose not to. And at least part of that may have been to maintain the element of surprise.

No one on the field, not Jon and especially not Ramsey expected reinforcements. That led to Ramsey firing volley on top of volley of arrows onto his own men. With the shields and archers, the Boltons maybe could have withstood a mounted cavalry but Ramsey chose to surround the free folk/stark loyalists and skewer them. It left their back exposed to the horses to cut through them.

There was absolutely no need to order the Umbers to climb over that mound and get trapped in there with the Stark's. They could have waited it out too once Ramsey ordered the U formation. But to quote a Redditor "he chose savagery" instead of strategic common sense.

His base sadisticness and disregard for life was his undoing and Sansa counted on it. But to get that she needed him to believe he was he one toying with everyone and not falling into her trap.

 

[Xennial]

I thought the Smalljon would've been a better fighter since he's supposed to be anywhere from 6'10-7 ft tall

 

[qstorm3]

I still think its weird how everyone in the show is giving jon a pass for leaving the nightswatchnwhich is a crime punishable by death

 

[tdogg2k]

Not like he had room for open combat. Plus tornond suppose to be up there too

 

[KingParappa]

I still think its weird how everyone in the show is giving jon a pass for leaving the nightswatchnwhich is a crime punishable by death

He was going on a suicide mission to fight Ramsey so everyone really just let it slide thinking Ramsey would end him

 

[harlemtothebronx]

But when Jon asked her specifically for any advice or info that would change their battle plan she looked at him and hushed up. He said specifically "we don't have any one else who will help." For whatever reason - embarrassment in case he didn't come, fear of Jon calling her a fool, fear of blame in case little finger betrayed them - she didn't want Jon to know about the knights and she let them organize a plan that would result in their certain death and barely said anything.

Sure she said don't do what he wants you to do, but she could have ensured they didn't by telling them about the cavalry. She chose not to. And at least part of that may have been to maintain the element of surprise.

No one on the field, not Jon and especially not Ramsey expected reinforcements. That led to Ramsey firing volley on top of volley of arrows onto his own men. With the shields and archers, the Boltons maybe could have withstood a mounted cavalry but Ramsey chose to surround the free folk/stark loyalists and skewer them. It left their back exposed to the horses to cut through them.

There was absolutely no need to order the Umbers to climb over that mound and get trapped in there with the Stark's. They could have waited it out too once Ramsey ordered the U formation. But to quote a Redditor "he chose savagery" instead of strategic common sense.

His base sadisticness and disregard for life was his undoing and Sansa counted on it. But to get that she needed him to believe he was he one toying with everyone and not falling into her trap.

That one moment where Davos said 'We'll only be killing our own men. Stand down.' Followed by a 'LOOOOOOOSE!' from Ramsay set the stage. You already knew Ramsay didn't care about the lives of his man, but that carelessness was his downfall.

I still think its weird how everyone in the show is giving jon a pass for leaving the nightswatchnwhich is a crime punishable by death

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.
The Night's Watch oath

He's got a good argument for his watch being over. I know I wouldn't question him.

 

[tdogg2k]

im not saying what Sansa did wasn't smart, like i said earlier, she has more men on her side now doens't have to worry about the loyalty of men. . basically all her opposition is gone. (sort of. since robert arryn owns them)
but she's still a scumbag, had multiple times she could have told jon. a new plan couldve been laid out or a more even battle could've happened. LF couldve came on the other side and flanked from behind with out them knowning.

She used rickon as bait.
she's a scumbag plain and simple

 

[nako xl]

I think that's definitely a consideration. I also understand the argument that Rickon was basically already dead and at that point she had to worry about her own survival. Couldn't be acting brashly like Jon.

 

[tdogg2k]

don't get me wrong we all knew rickon was going to die. but she used him as a deciding factor for jon to be as heroic as he was.

 

[pitman13]

^^ You're assuming Sansa knew LF was going to show up when he did. We don't know that. Sending a raven for reinforcements doesn't guarantee help especially from LF.

Also, she warned Jon not to engage in Ramsey's trickery. Jon didn't listen and forced his army to storm the battlefield prematurely causing an almost slaughter.

None of this was planned by Sansa. She assumed her brother was already dead so she accepted his fate before the battle started. Jon didn't. That's not Sansa's fault.

 

[rook]

Nah had she told Jon about her plan, Ramsey would've just had a siege and prolonged the battle for months

 

[gbdaman]

Besides Ned Stark name one ward/hostage that was killed in custody on the show?

Yes, Ned was killed by a psycho, and yes Ramsay is a psycho, but Joffrey didn't need Ned. Ramsay very much so recognizes that he needs Rickon. He also saw how killing Ned in captivity rallied the North and what it did to Joffrey and the Lannisters. Rickon in captivity forces people to tread lightly, at least until he gets Sansa or Arya back. Killing Rickon without an heir just further fuels the uprising his father warned him about and leaves him with an illegitimate claim.

I don't see how any of you can reason out the logic it would take for him to kill Rickon prior to capturing Sansa. Especially when they went through the theatrics of showing Rickon being handed over, the fact that it'd be a waste of a story, and that we don't need any more fuel for the Ramsay hate fire. Unless your argument is just "Ramsay is crazy and everything is nihilistic, it doesn't need meaning!" in which, yeah I'd like to think the writers are better than that.

Ramsay only needs Rickon in order to get Sansa back. And in what world does he believe Jon will return Sansa to him so that Rickon can live. First off he is a psycho like you said so who would trust him anyway? Rickon being alive is only a threat to his hold on the north. Rickon is the heir to Winterfell yes so why leave him alive to have the north rally against you. Having Sansa was important because it made the Boltons new position as the Wardens of the north and Lords of Winterfell stronger. Rickon is only good to him if it helps him get sansa back which it wont. We know that in Episode 9 Jon/Sansa's army face him at Winterfell so they obviously didnt trade her for Rickon.

I don't see how any of you can reason out the logic it would take for him to kill Rickon prior to capturing Sansa.

Sansa helps solidify his hold on the North Rickon threatens it. She isnt going to trade herself in for himl. So a dead Rickon is better than a live one.

I beleive the show is streamlining the story and this is a way to cut out the whole Rickon storyline.




Thats from page 109.

 

[pitman13]

The real question is, who were the 6 ppl burning on the battlefield ?

 

[gbdaman]

I'm curious to see what they are going to do about Samwell. Cant see him going to the citadel and getting a maester chain and ending back up at the wall in 13 episodes which is all thats left after sundays episode. In the books it seems where he is in oldtown is about to become a focal point with Euron and his valyrian armor heading there.

 

[nako xl]

Could be a time skip.

Or a plot no jutsu power up where he learns all the important info super fast and is allowed to keep wifey with him.

 

[nako xl]

gbdaman

Shall we have a friendly rep bet. If rickon makes it through the season or not

In all fairness, if Ramsay kills Rickon and then Jon rides in to try to avenge him, it'll basically be the (Spoiler Alert) House Forrester storyline from the telltale games. Not sure they'd do that. Or maybe they would. I doubt it though.

Also from page 109.

 

[Master Zik]

Also the way you guys are spelling legitimized is killing me.

"Legitmazied." "Legitimatized." [emoji]128514[/emoji]

Don't know what my auto-correct is doing man

I still think its weird how everyone in the show is giving jon a pass for leaving the nightswatchnwhich is a crime punishable by death

Kinda miffed rumor didn't spread he died and then a week later rumor spread he was resurrected.

^^ You're assuming Sansa knew LF was going to show up when he did. We don't know that. Sending a raven for reinforcements doesn't guarantee help especially from LF.

Also, she warned Jon not to engage in Ramsey's trickery. Jon didn't listen and forced his army to storm the battlefield prematurely causing an almost slaughter.

None of this was planned by Sansa. She assumed her brother was already dead so she accepted his fate before the battle started. Jon didn't. That's not Sansa's fault.

What trickery? They all agreed they would be fighting tomorrow.

All that warning by Sansa about Ramsey didn't happen.

What happened was Ramsey had the bigger army and dominated, plus he was willing to kill his own men with arrows to create that heap of bodies to help create a kill box.

No tricks he simply outnumbered and outsmarted his enemy.

Jon had no reason to wait for anyone.

Also forget telling Jon knights of the Vale were coming. Sansa didn't even tell Jon they were an option. She tells him to wait, he says wait for who? She gets quiet.

All this maybe LF doesn't show up is irrelvant.

 

[bigchecks45]

I still think its weird how everyone in the show is giving jon a pass for leaving the nightswatchnwhich is a crime punishable by death

is it just show or book also, but i thought his watch ended when he died? or is the assumption that Westoros wouldnt believe he was brought back?

 

[fantastic4our]

Did Littlefinger respond with a raven? She has no way of knowing for sure when or if the Knights of the Vale were coming.

I still think its weird how everyone in the show is giving jon a pass for leaving the nightswatchnwhich is a crime punishable by death

He died. Like they literally killed him that's the only way to be relieved of your vows.

 

[nako xl]

Honestly, the implication is that show Jon doesn't care anymore. He's already died, he just wants peace. What's the worst they can do? Kill him for betraying his nights watch vows? They already did that. He doesn't care anymore.

I imagine he's not too bent on convincing everyone.

 

[qstorm3]

Agreed but imagine explaining being bought back to life to a lord about to cut our head off [emoji]128514[/emoji]i also think the north has other things to worry aout

 

[gbdaman]

The actor who plays young ned will be in episode 10, do you guys think we will get Tower of Joy pt 2?

 

[pitman13]

George is doing everything except writing 'Winds'