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So, you actually believed that?
The Official 2008 Chicago Bulls Off Season Thread: BG Signs 1 Year Deal; No one cares; BASEBALL FTW
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by jblackcat13,
- Start date
So, you actually believed that?
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We're all big on labels, and when it comes to coaches, most of us have only two of them.
There are "good" coaches, and there are "bad" coaches, and rarely do the distinctions go further than that. And, of course, ourperception of "good" and "bad" can change like the weather -- based mostly on whether the team in question won or lost yesterday.
Maybe a few coaches are so effective or ineffective they would succeed or fail anywhere, but the vast majority fall somewhere in between these extremes.
Coaches aren't "good" or "bad" as much as they are an amalgam of strengths and weaknesses. That means each individual coach might beparticularly well-suited or badly suited for a given team at a given time.
For a good example, take Doug Collins. The Chicago Bulls are bringing him back to be theircoach, and on several levels, it's hard to argue with the logic.
For instance, Collins' track record of immediate improvement is tough to ignore. In his past three coaching stops, his teams have improved by 10, 18 and18 games in his first season on the bench. With the talent Chicago has on hand, plus the first overall pick, there's a good chance he'll have a fourthstraight double-figure victory improvement.
Collins brings a lot of strengths to the table. He's a master of details, and one of the ways he got his teams to turn around so quickly was byfine-tuning all the little things -- his teams were among the league's best-prepared.
That carried over to the hustle side, too. Collins got his teams to compete and defend, as can be seen by the improvements in defensive efficiency at eachstop.
By an odd coincidence, each team Collins took over was the worst defensive team in the NBA the year before he arrived, based on defensive efficiency.Unbelievably, Collins got two of those three teams into the top half of the league in his first year, with Chicago jumping from 23rd (last) to 11th and Detroitmotoring from 29th to a shocking seventh. The effect wasn't quite as strong with Washington -- 29th to 21st -- but it was there.
So, obviously the problem isn't that Collins can't coach. He can. The problem is that his strengths and weaknesses are a terrible match for the teamhe's taking over.
Those strengths would make him a great fit for a lot of teams, especially teams that are struggling to defend. But not the Bulls -- Chicago is already oneof the league's best defensive teams (its struggles last season were mostly on offense).
How do we know he's not a natural fit in Chicago? Here are the problem areas in his coaching record:
[h2]Problem No. 1: Pace[/h2]Collins might be the most extreme slow-pace coach in the past quarter century. I'm amazed nobody has broughtthis up yet -- the guy makes Jeff Van Gundy look like Paul Westhead.
[+] Enlarge
Andrew D. Bernstein/NBAE/Getty Images
Even with MJ at his disposal, Doug Collins usually didn't push the pace.
His Bulls were the league's slowest-paced team in 1986-87 and 1987-88, even with Michael Jordan at the peak of his athleticism. Scottie Pippen became a starter in 1988-89, yet Collins had the Bulls playing at thethird-slowest pace in the NBA.
His Pistons, with a young Grant Hill, were the league's second-slowest team inboth seasons Collins coached in Detroit. And his Wizards were 26th and 27th out of 29 teams in his two years at the helm in Washington.
So there's problem No. 1. The Bulls, though a defense-minded team in recent seasons, played fast. The past four seasons, Chicago has ranked 11th, sixth,fifth and 11th in pace, even while ranking among the league's top clubs in defensive efficiency.
The Bulls probably ought to play even faster next season. Presuming the Bulls take Derrick Rose with the first overall pick, they'll want to run morethan ever. This would be to their advantage -- as a small, fast team without a go-to post player, Chicago should look to run at every opportunity. But it'san open question whether Collins can lighten up enough to coach this way.
Obviously, if the Bulls take Michael Beasley, this is a lesser concern, but even so, the fact remains that Chicago would have a down-tempo coach with amostly up-tempo roster. Unless John Paxson is planning to nuke the roster this summer, this looms as a major issue.
[h2]Problem No. 2: Youth[/h2]Collins' history is that he gets an immediate jump from his team -- then things level off in subsequentseasons.
There's a reason for that. Few coaches in recent history have trusted young players less than Collins has. Obviously, there's the infamous Kwame Brown saga, but his obvious discomfort with any young player who isn't an immediatestar goes well beyond that.
[+] Enlarge
Andrew D. Bernstein/NBAE/Getty Images
Will Collins draw up a successful plan for Chicago?
Collins was particularly over the top in this respect in his most recent tenure, in Washington, and not just with Brown. While 22-year-old Bobby Simmons sat at the end of the bench for two years, 32-year-old Bryon Russell played and was horribly ineffective. While 25-year-old Brian Cardinal sat, 39-year-old Charles Oakley got plenty of time to prove how washed up he was. While 22-year-old Brendan Haywood sat, 32-year-old Popeye Jones played. You get the picture.
Although Detroit and Chicago weren't exactly awash in young talent with Collins as coach, he didn't get much out of the young 'uns there,either. In Detroit, rookies Aaron McKie and Theo Ratliff were two of his most effective players in 1996-97, but they came off the benchbehind the veterans; a third productive rookie, Jerome Williams, hardly played at all. In Chicago, he played 23-year-old rookie Will Perdue 190 minutes in1988-89 … or 99 minutes fewer than he played future towel-waver Jack Haley.
Obviously, if you look at Chicago's current roster, this portends a serious problem. Rose or Beasley will play no matter what, presumably, but what ofyounger players with less impressive pedigrees? Joakim Noah and Tyrus Thomas need to get experience and play though their mistakes, but one worries Collinswill pull the plug on them after the first miscue and put in whatever decrepit 32-year-old veteran the Bulls sign for the minimum this summer. Ditto forThabo Sefolosha and Aaron Gray.
In short, for a young team to hire a coach so suspicious of youth is a head-scratcher.
[h2]Problem No. 3: Temperament[/h2]Problems 1 and 2 are concerns, but this last problem is potentially the biggest hurdle.
For three-and-a-half seasons, the Bulls played for Scott Skiles -- a detail-oriented stickler who rode his players hard every minute. This had impressiveshort-term effects, but by the start of last season, his players had tuned him out and seemed to be bothered by his demanding approach. The results showed inthe team's record.
By hiring Collins, the Bulls are effectively bringing in another Skiles, in terms of temperament.
At each of his previous three stops, Collins' constant harping wore out his players within three years. If he lost them that fast when he replacedplayers' coaches, how fast will the Bulls' players tune him out when he comes in as Skiles the Sequel? My guess is "with breathtakingspeed."
One has to presume Collins will get his one-year jump in the win column, simply because the Bulls are too talented to lose 49 games again. But for him tosucceed, he'll need to be a much more laid-back, up-tempo, youth-friendly coach than he ever was in his past three stops.
Again, the problem isn't that Collins is a "bad" coach. It's that his strengths and weaknesses are a bad fit.
And if he doesn't change his stripes, we'll find ourselves contemplating Chicago's next coaching hire before you know it.
John Hollinger writes for ESPN Insider. To e-mail him, click here.
There are "good" coaches, and there are "bad" coaches, and rarely do the distinctions go further than that. And, of course, ourperception of "good" and "bad" can change like the weather -- based mostly on whether the team in question won or lost yesterday.
Maybe a few coaches are so effective or ineffective they would succeed or fail anywhere, but the vast majority fall somewhere in between these extremes.
Coaches aren't "good" or "bad" as much as they are an amalgam of strengths and weaknesses. That means each individual coach might beparticularly well-suited or badly suited for a given team at a given time.
For a good example, take Doug Collins. The Chicago Bulls are bringing him back to be theircoach, and on several levels, it's hard to argue with the logic.
For instance, Collins' track record of immediate improvement is tough to ignore. In his past three coaching stops, his teams have improved by 10, 18 and18 games in his first season on the bench. With the talent Chicago has on hand, plus the first overall pick, there's a good chance he'll have a fourthstraight double-figure victory improvement.
Collins brings a lot of strengths to the table. He's a master of details, and one of the ways he got his teams to turn around so quickly was byfine-tuning all the little things -- his teams were among the league's best-prepared.
That carried over to the hustle side, too. Collins got his teams to compete and defend, as can be seen by the improvements in defensive efficiency at eachstop.
By an odd coincidence, each team Collins took over was the worst defensive team in the NBA the year before he arrived, based on defensive efficiency.Unbelievably, Collins got two of those three teams into the top half of the league in his first year, with Chicago jumping from 23rd (last) to 11th and Detroitmotoring from 29th to a shocking seventh. The effect wasn't quite as strong with Washington -- 29th to 21st -- but it was there.
So, obviously the problem isn't that Collins can't coach. He can. The problem is that his strengths and weaknesses are a terrible match for the teamhe's taking over.
Those strengths would make him a great fit for a lot of teams, especially teams that are struggling to defend. But not the Bulls -- Chicago is already oneof the league's best defensive teams (its struggles last season were mostly on offense).
How do we know he's not a natural fit in Chicago? Here are the problem areas in his coaching record:
[h2]Problem No. 1: Pace[/h2]Collins might be the most extreme slow-pace coach in the past quarter century. I'm amazed nobody has broughtthis up yet -- the guy makes Jeff Van Gundy look like Paul Westhead.
[+] Enlarge
Andrew D. Bernstein/NBAE/Getty Images
Even with MJ at his disposal, Doug Collins usually didn't push the pace.
His Bulls were the league's slowest-paced team in 1986-87 and 1987-88, even with Michael Jordan at the peak of his athleticism. Scottie Pippen became a starter in 1988-89, yet Collins had the Bulls playing at thethird-slowest pace in the NBA.
His Pistons, with a young Grant Hill, were the league's second-slowest team inboth seasons Collins coached in Detroit. And his Wizards were 26th and 27th out of 29 teams in his two years at the helm in Washington.
So there's problem No. 1. The Bulls, though a defense-minded team in recent seasons, played fast. The past four seasons, Chicago has ranked 11th, sixth,fifth and 11th in pace, even while ranking among the league's top clubs in defensive efficiency.
The Bulls probably ought to play even faster next season. Presuming the Bulls take Derrick Rose with the first overall pick, they'll want to run morethan ever. This would be to their advantage -- as a small, fast team without a go-to post player, Chicago should look to run at every opportunity. But it'san open question whether Collins can lighten up enough to coach this way.
Obviously, if the Bulls take Michael Beasley, this is a lesser concern, but even so, the fact remains that Chicago would have a down-tempo coach with amostly up-tempo roster. Unless John Paxson is planning to nuke the roster this summer, this looms as a major issue.
[h2]Problem No. 2: Youth[/h2]Collins' history is that he gets an immediate jump from his team -- then things level off in subsequentseasons.
There's a reason for that. Few coaches in recent history have trusted young players less than Collins has. Obviously, there's the infamous Kwame Brown saga, but his obvious discomfort with any young player who isn't an immediatestar goes well beyond that.
[+] Enlarge
Andrew D. Bernstein/NBAE/Getty Images
Will Collins draw up a successful plan for Chicago?
Collins was particularly over the top in this respect in his most recent tenure, in Washington, and not just with Brown. While 22-year-old Bobby Simmons sat at the end of the bench for two years, 32-year-old Bryon Russell played and was horribly ineffective. While 25-year-old Brian Cardinal sat, 39-year-old Charles Oakley got plenty of time to prove how washed up he was. While 22-year-old Brendan Haywood sat, 32-year-old Popeye Jones played. You get the picture.
Although Detroit and Chicago weren't exactly awash in young talent with Collins as coach, he didn't get much out of the young 'uns there,either. In Detroit, rookies Aaron McKie and Theo Ratliff were two of his most effective players in 1996-97, but they came off the benchbehind the veterans; a third productive rookie, Jerome Williams, hardly played at all. In Chicago, he played 23-year-old rookie Will Perdue 190 minutes in1988-89 … or 99 minutes fewer than he played future towel-waver Jack Haley.
Obviously, if you look at Chicago's current roster, this portends a serious problem. Rose or Beasley will play no matter what, presumably, but what ofyounger players with less impressive pedigrees? Joakim Noah and Tyrus Thomas need to get experience and play though their mistakes, but one worries Collinswill pull the plug on them after the first miscue and put in whatever decrepit 32-year-old veteran the Bulls sign for the minimum this summer. Ditto forThabo Sefolosha and Aaron Gray.
In short, for a young team to hire a coach so suspicious of youth is a head-scratcher.
[h2]Problem No. 3: Temperament[/h2]Problems 1 and 2 are concerns, but this last problem is potentially the biggest hurdle.
For three-and-a-half seasons, the Bulls played for Scott Skiles -- a detail-oriented stickler who rode his players hard every minute. This had impressiveshort-term effects, but by the start of last season, his players had tuned him out and seemed to be bothered by his demanding approach. The results showed inthe team's record.
By hiring Collins, the Bulls are effectively bringing in another Skiles, in terms of temperament.
At each of his previous three stops, Collins' constant harping wore out his players within three years. If he lost them that fast when he replacedplayers' coaches, how fast will the Bulls' players tune him out when he comes in as Skiles the Sequel? My guess is "with breathtakingspeed."
One has to presume Collins will get his one-year jump in the win column, simply because the Bulls are too talented to lose 49 games again. But for him tosucceed, he'll need to be a much more laid-back, up-tempo, youth-friendly coach than he ever was in his past three stops.
Again, the problem isn't that Collins is a "bad" coach. It's that his strengths and weaknesses are a bad fit.
And if he doesn't change his stripes, we'll find ourselves contemplating Chicago's next coaching hire before you know it.
John Hollinger writes for ESPN Insider. To e-mail him, click here.
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- Apr 13, 2007
so who wife is he gone bang and get fired for this time
but the better question is how long tell it happens OverUnder 6months
but the better question is how long tell it happens OverUnder 6months
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- Dec 21, 2006
check out this article about the collins hire.. pretty good analysis if u ask me..
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/colum...ge=Collins-080529&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab2pos1
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/colum...ge=Collins-080529&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab2pos1
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- Dec 21, 2006
^^ cancel that.. didn't see that it was posted in the previous. page.. yeah.. i am not very happy about this hiring.
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- Nov 28, 2004
im still torn on who we should pick. i think the biggest thing Pax has to do is make the decison on Tyrus.
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Concerning the article by Hollinger, you can pretty much take out the age argument, because everyone on the team is young, so I think Collins is gonna allowthe guys who should play to play.
My only concern is his pace, I hope he just lets the team run, because they will still play good D and will hustle
My only concern is his pace, I hope he just lets the team run, because they will still play good D and will hustle
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- May 27, 2008
I want Doug to groom Jeff Hornacek.
da r entertainment
Supporter
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It also helped that Tyson had an incredible PG in Chris Paul. Put Tyson BACK on the Bulls and the results won't be as fruitful.
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Apparently some staffers with the Bulls organization are talking to bloggers. Here's what they are leaking.
1) Bulls will draft Derrick Rose at #1 overall. They will keep him unless another organization makes them an offer they can't refuse.
2) Doug Collins is the next head coach with one caveat. The Bulls want to interview Flip Saunders who reportedly will be the Pistons head coach next season.It's unlikely the Bulls will get the interview, but their making overtures to Detroit to obtain an interview.
1) Bulls will draft Derrick Rose at #1 overall. They will keep him unless another organization makes them an offer they can't refuse.
2) Doug Collins is the next head coach with one caveat. The Bulls want to interview Flip Saunders who reportedly will be the Pistons head coach next season.It's unlikely the Bulls will get the interview, but their making overtures to Detroit to obtain an interview.
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I meant the article is fake.
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- Dec 27, 2005
What up CHI-Town?
How y'all feel about RIP? There are rumors that JD would break up the Bad Boys ...
so...
Take a hike Larry Hughes
How y'all feel about RIP? There are rumors that JD would break up the Bad Boys ...
so...
Take a hike Larry Hughes
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- Jul 14, 2005
Flip as the new Bulls head coach???
discuss...
discuss...
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^He is IMO the best out of all the FA coaches out here, unless Pat Riley wants to give it a go?
Underrated while coaching KG, came in coached the Pistons after LB won a ring, and brought the Pistons to the ECF 3x only to lose consecutively..
Flip only needs to prove that he can coach a PLAYOFF team to the finals, other than that he is fully qualified in my book...
Underrated while coaching KG, came in coached the Pistons after LB won a ring, and brought the Pistons to the ECF 3x only to lose consecutively..
Flip only needs to prove that he can coach a PLAYOFF team to the finals, other than that he is fully qualified in my book...
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Flip would be cool but man!
Is it just all bad as far as Avery is concerned.
Dream scenario: Avery at the helm with
Loul, Derrick, and Wade in they backcourt by 2010
But that would be doin 4much
Is it just all bad as far as Avery is concerned.
Dream scenario: Avery at the helm with
Loul, Derrick, and Wade in they backcourt by 2010
But that would be doin 4much
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- Sep 1, 2004
i wouldnt mind flip he coachs both offense and defense. i think he got the short end of the stick at both of his last jobs. not his fault he had a team full ofchokers with the Twolves and the pistsons a bunch of head cases
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Flip should be the guy.
I don't wana see Avery or Collins coachin Rose.
I don't wana see Avery or Collins coachin Rose.
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I'd definitely take Flip over Doug Collins...
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- Jul 23, 2007
Hell no....i dont want his recycled !#% coaching my team. I'm sure he's a good coach and all, but he just spent all that time with Detroit (whom Ihate), i dont want him here......or Dougie Collins for that matter.
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If you guys are gonna take Flip, don't make Collins go back to TNT PLEASE.
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Didn`t read it all,but anyway been a bulls fan for about 15ys and i`m probably one of the few who doesn't want rose. What i`d like is for Chicago totrade the number one pick to Miami for wade on the condition that the heat take rose,Beasley goes to number 2 is still scooped up by the bulls and then theytrade some of that young talent for a veteran or 2. I can only dream right
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Good to back...
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I'd personally take Flip over Doug anyday and they let him go??? I'm comfortable with that selection
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Reinsdorf, don't screw this up. Take Collins and run.