The Ultimate Soccer Thread 2012-2013 Vol. 3 Premier League, La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga etc

eiddyfouw said:
Far from a spin job.
I merely mentioned my opinion, coupled with others that I've read.
I did clearly state, I wasn't too familiar with Ancelotti, because I only really knew him from his Chelsea days. Sadly enough, under Roman, even if he performed well, that job just comes with too many owner issues. As for managers "not managing clubs", maybe I didn't make it clear when I said "and is looked after by someone like". The reason why I mentioned Carlos, was not as a manager, but as a coach/assistant manager. If you read up about his creative ideals, and more importantly about how he looked after players of latin descent during his time at OT, you'll see why I mentioned him. I mentioned those managers off the top of my head, they're not the only ones. Hell, even Wenger could probably mould that kid into something special, probably the same with AVB and a few others.
"As far as "oil money clubs" go, Chelsea and City both have young players who have been or will be there for a long time." - About this statement here. Those players often get shifted to the side. We've seen this countless times. So what, you're at the club for a long time, but when was the last time you got a full 90? Big clubs with HUGE cash reserves often do this. They stack hard, and when key players begin to shine, it becomes hard for others to get in. The reason I say "oil money clubs" is because generally, they're the ones with insane cash reserves, and are buying the fastest to build mega squads.
Being at an "oil money club" is better than being at United? Debatable. I genuinely would think being at a club where I get to start everyweek, receive a VERY healthy paycheck and actually have a shot at league and CL titles would be better than being at a club where I ride the bench or only get to play 15min a game. But like I said before, a footballers career is so short, that it's hard to blame them when that big(ger) paycheck comes calling. In Moura's case, with players like Bastos and Nene ageing, he's probably more likely to get a full 90 though. But then that begs the question, how come he couldn't get a full 90 at U-23 Brazil?
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Alright to touch on some of the basic points you have tried to make, you say why hasn't Moura gotten a full 90 during the Olympics? From what I know he is a natural winger and you are basically saying he should be starting over Neymar and Hulk?

Then you go on to say that if Lucas went to Man U he would have a shot at league and CL titles and start every week? Yet if he went/goes to PSG he would only ride the bench or play 15min/game... yet wouldn't that mean he would have a significantly better chance at league and CL titles (granted Ligue 1 is not the EPL). I mean you can't really expect him to come in and start over the assortment of Young,Nani,Valencia can you? I'm not going to pretend like I know much about PSG but I can't imagine that the competition at PSG for the wing is anywhere near what it is at Man U.

Then to "oil money clubs" not starting or sticking with youth? Man City rotated quite a bit ranging from Savic, Johnson, Mario, etc. And even then I mean the majority of their squad is under 26. How many title contending clubs that are going to be able to compete in Europe financially, will Moura be able to start every week?
 
Above: I was fortunate to watch Alexis at Udinese for numerous years, probably because two of my closest friends are major Milan and Juve supporters (Serie A). I truly think he dives noticeably more in a Barca kit. But to answer your point, I will call it fair. There's one La Liga match in particular that Di Maria shamed Madrid (me). Started a physical altercation with his actions. Can't think of the specific details (opponent). Pepe is a bruising CB and just as physical as a holding-mid but I'm the first to admit his theatrics are nonsensical at times. Beyond diving, stepping on Lio's fingers was classless, ridiculously useless, and generally unwise. I won't address the minor CR7 point because we both realize he's not much of a diver at all anymore, that was largely in his United days.

Real Madrid: I'm fine with a Sahin loan for regular first-team action at a top-20 club in Europe but the board better not sell him. He was injury-plagued his first campaign fighting to crack the starting XI behind Alonso, Khedira, and Lass, but from what I saw at Borussia Dortmund, the young Turkish international has world-class potential. Slightly less than Mario Gotze in my opinion. Although they're admittedly different types of midfielders, Gotze's probably more similar to a Christian Eriksen-type.

RVP: My hunch is City or Juve, just like everybody else. Imagine if he goes to Eastlands following Clichy and Nasri while Lewandowski eventually makes his way to Old Trafford.

SP: To reiterate about Moura, his biggest asset is pace by far. Not afraid to take on full-backs out wide. Some on this board seem to think Fergie plans to convert Lucas Moura into the next great United winger like Cristiano Ronaldo and Nani.

Rook: It's more likely Neymar fulfills his Santos contract through 2014. He's comfortable at home and one of the highest-paid footballers in Brasil easily. The Chelsea Brasilians are still actively recruiting Neymar but I still think he's Barca's or Madrid's to lose in the end.

LFC: Very close eye on the Brendan Rodgers experiment. This could end very well or very badly, no middle ground.

Olympics: Hoping for a Korea upset over Brasil, squad needs it after Park Ji-Sung's departure and difficulties with WC 2014 qualifiers. Korea/Japan in the gold medal match would be highly appealing because of historical ties and representing the continent of Asia.

Ashley Cole: If the wage demands are true and even if they're not, let him stay at Chelsea or have PSG overpay. Madrid already has a logjam with Marcelo and Coentrao battling for first-team LB. We paid a king's ransom for Fabio Coentrao, he must see the pitch consistently.

Hugo Lloris: Shrewd business if Spurs actually acquires the French keeper for the rumored price from OL. He has the potential to be a top-5 keeper in the world after the likes of Casillas, Neuer, and Hart.

Manchester: I wonder if the public complaints of Tevez and the da Silva twins about boredom in the city have affected Brasilians from coming to OT and other footballers as well.

Ravel Morrison: Anyone know if the loan spell to West Ham knocked some maturity and sense into the young man?

USA/Canada: Did not love the PK call against Canada that allowed for Wambach to tie the match. Props to the U.S. manager for implementing a successful 3-4-3 gunning for the win in extra-time with Wambach, Leroux, and Morgan up top.
 
hpscots0906 said:
eiddyfouw said:
Far from a spin job.
I merely mentioned my opinion, coupled with others that I've read.
I did clearly state, I wasn't too familiar with Ancelotti, because I only really knew him from his Chelsea days. Sadly enough, under Roman, even if he performed well, that job just comes with too many owner issues. As for managers "not managing clubs", maybe I didn't make it clear when I said "and is looked after by someone like". The reason why I mentioned Carlos, was not as a manager, but as a coach/assistant manager. If you read up about his creative ideals, and more importantly about how he looked after players of latin descent during his time at OT, you'll see why I mentioned him. I mentioned those managers off the top of my head, they're not the only ones. Hell, even Wenger could probably mould that kid into something special, probably the same with AVB and a few others.
"As far as "oil money clubs" go, Chelsea and City both have young players who have been or will be there for a long time." - About this statement here. Those players often get shifted to the side. We've seen this countless times. So what, you're at the club for a long time, but when was the last time you got a full 90? Big clubs with HUGE cash reserves often do this. They stack hard, and when key players begin to shine, it becomes hard for others to get in. The reason I say "oil money clubs" is because generally, they're the ones with insane cash reserves, and are buying the fastest to build mega squads.
Being at an "oil money club" is better than being at United? Debatable. I genuinely would think being at a club where I get to start everyweek, receive a VERY healthy paycheck and actually have a shot at league and CL titles would be better than being at a club where I ride the bench or only get to play 15min a game. But like I said before, a footballers career is so short, that it's hard to blame them when that big(ger) paycheck comes calling. In Moura's case, with players like Bastos and Nene ageing, he's probably more likely to get a full 90 though. But then that begs the question, how come he couldn't get a full 90 at U-23 Brazil?
Click to expand...

Alright to touch on some of the basic points you have tried to make, you say why hasn't Moura gotten a full 90 during the Olympics? From what I know he is a natural winger and you are basically saying he should be starting over Neymar and Hulk?

Then you go on to say that if Lucas went to Man U he would have a shot at league and CL titles and start every week? Yet if he went/goes to PSG he would only ride the bench or play 15min/game... yet wouldn't that mean he would have a significantly better chance at league and CL titles (granted Ligue 1 is not the EPL). I mean you can't really expect him to come in and start over the assortment of Young,Nani,Valencia can you? I'm not going to pretend like I know much about PSG but I can't imagine that the competition at PSG for the wing is anywhere near what it is at Man U.

Then to "oil money clubs" not starting or sticking with youth? Man City rotated quite a bit ranging from Savic, Johnson, Mario, etc. And even then I mean the majority of their squad is under 26. How many title contending clubs that are going to be able to compete in Europe financially, will Moura be able to start every week?
Click to expand...

Ok hold up eiddy never said he'd rather play at man united than any other club, he specifically said ANY team that would allow him to play the full 90 and get a healthy pay check. And he also said that teams like City and Chelsea do have young players but are rarely started point in case Nasri who would rarely get those 90, or Dzeko ad with Chelsea Sturridge never got the 90 sometimes or Torres who is far younger than Drogba, plus the older players at Chelsea are the reason why AVB was fired, as soon as Di Mateo started coaching all the old folks were back in the line up. AVB's job was to make a new young club mixed with the old that's why Mata (23) David Luiz (24) Torres (27) were brought in and that's why Hazard and Marin were also brought in, to replace an aging squad. Hpscots, you just misunderstood eiddy
 

Obviously this move is still nothing but a rumor, but Ancelotti is one of the best and most successful managers in the world. He'll "look after" his young players just about as well as anyone, regardless of the players' descent.

As for your stance on the "oil money clubs" - all they're doing is improving their squads so they can compete on all levels. The situation at those clubs is very similar to other big clubs - if you're not good enough, you're not good enough, and you won't become an automatic starter until you are. Once again, how's Chicharito's game prospects looking? How many 90 minute games is Cleverly going to play? As hp touched on, Moura wouldn't start over Valencia and Nani anyway. So why would United be a better club for him again? At PSG he'll be under a world class manager, making great money, while living in Paris, and still competing for trophies, without the excessive pressure of being at one of the biggest clubs which actually can stunt development. You seem to be under the impression that Ferguson is infallible, when Anderson - the last highly rated Brazilian to come to United - has failed to live up to expectation.

I don't think they're better clubs overall, but the ownership certainly is. I'd much rather have an owner willing to put his own money into the club as opposed to an owner who utilizes a leveraged buyout to takeover while saddling the club with a mountain of debt.

Champ, I don't see any difference to the dark side of his game, except that everything is magnified when you play for Barca. CR has def toned it down, but when things aren't going his way he's more than willing. That second Valencia game comes to mind, but nbd.
 
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ChampCruThik said:
Above: I was fortunate to watch Alexis at Udinese for numerous years, probably because two of my closest friends are major Milan and Juve supporters (Serie A). I truly think he dives noticeably more in a Barca kit. But to answer your point, I will call it fair. There's one La Liga match in particular that Di Maria shamed Madrid (me). Started a physical altercation with his actions. Can't think of the specific details (opponent). Pepe is a bruising CB and just as physical as a holding-mid but I'm the first to admit his theatrics are nonsensical at times. Beyond diving, stepping on Lio's fingers was classless, ridiculously useless, and generally unwise. I won't address the minor CR7 point because we both realize he's not much of a diver at all anymore, that was largely in his United days.
Real Madrid: I'm fine with a Sahin loan for regular first-team action at a top-20 club in Europe but the board better not sell him. He was injury-plagued his first campaign fighting to crack the starting XI behind Alonso, Khedira, and Lass, but from what I saw at Borussia Dortmund, the young Turkish international has world-class potential. Slightly less than Mario Gotze in my opinion. Although they're admittedly different types of midfielders, Gotze's probably more similar to a Christian Eriksen-type.
RVP: My hunch is City or Juve, just like everybody else. Imagine if he goes to Eastlands following Clichy and Nasri while Lewandowski eventually makes his way to Old Trafford.
SP: To reiterate about Moura, his biggest asset is pace by far. Not afraid to take on full-backs out wide. Some on this board seem to think Fergie plans to convert Lucas Moura into the next great United winger like Cristiano Ronaldo and Nani.
LFC: Very close eye on the Brendan Rodgers experiment. This could end very well or very badly, no middle ground.
Olympics: Hoping for a Korea upset over Brasil, squad needs it after Park Ji-Sung's departure and difficulties with WC 2014 qualifiers. Korea/Japan in the gold medal match would be highly appealing because of historical ties and representing the continent of Asia.
Ashley Cole: If the wage demands are true and even if they're not, let him stay at Chelsea or have PSG overpay. Madrid already has a logjam with Marcelo and Coentrao battling for first-team LB. We paid a king's ransom for Fabio Coentrao, he must see the pitch consistently.
Hugo Lloris: Shrewd business if Spurs actually acquires the French keeper for the rumored price from OL. He has the potential to be a top-5 keeper in the world after the likes of Casillas, Neuer, and Hart.
Manchester: I wonder if the public complaints of Tevez and the da Silva twins about boredom in the city have affected Brasilians from coming to OT and other footballers as well.
Ravel Morrison: Anyone know if the loan spell to West Ham knocked some maturity and sense into the young man?
.
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Alexis \ Di Maria: I agree with what you saying about Alexis, I think he does seem to dive more now, The 'win at all costs' nature at Barcelona is one of the reasons that Barca has alot of people hating on them, Busquets sums up that mentality and I know throughout Europe most people detest him :smh: - IMO Di Maria the biggest diver in Europe, Sometimes he flops and you cant help but be embarrased for the dude - CR7 did flop a bit at United but people underestimate the amount of kicks and fouls he recieved, Dude would walk off the pitch covered in bruises every game

Real Madrid: They should let Sahin be free instead of stockpiling good talented players like him and Sergio Canales etc. wasting out talents :smh: (Atletico fan here :D)


RVP: I still feel City are in the pole position for this one, despite the denials from the club - Tevez could blow up at any minute and Dzeko never really settled so I think they will see this one out as long as possible, Although I think more as time goes on I can see him maybe even staying at Arsenal, If they sign Sahin that could help him stay as they making some good moves this Summer

SP: A Brazilian journalist I know has told me that Wagner Ribeiro (Moura's agent) personally denied Sir Alex permission to speak to Lucas after Brazil's last game and stated that he will now not deal with Man Utd, So this is obvious that he holding out for PSG money - Expecting that to be confirmed in the next few days, although seems he will stay in Brazil until January as PSG need to clear space for Non-EU players

LFC: Agree with that


Olympics: Brasil too strong IMO


Ashley Cole Will stay at Chelsea, He has already came out on Twitter and stated that the reported 'demands' he has are false (@TheRealAC3)


Manchester: As far as I am aware the Da Silva twins and Anderson love Manchester, Robinho and Tevez hated it but they arent the most tranquil of people


Hugo Lloris: would be a good signing, I personally thought Spurs would of pushed for Jack Butland as he is talented and English


Ravel Morrison will never fulfill his talent, mark my words on that one, He is too concerned on being a wannabe Gangster off the pitch
 
ChampCruThik said:
SP: To reiterate about Moura, his biggest asset is pace by far. Not afraid to take on full-backs out wide. Some on this board seem to think Fergie plans to convert Lucas Moura into the next great United winger like Cristiano Ronaldo and Nani.

Manchester: I wonder if the public complaints of Tevez and the da Silva twins about boredom in the city have affected Brasilians from coming to OT and other footballers as well.

Ravel Morrison: Anyone know if the loan spell to West Ham knocked some maturity and sense into the young man?
Click to expand...

Yes, the plan is to to turn him into a world class forward floating around similar to Ronaldo on the flanks with the ability to cut in and shoot. I'd be 120% behind this idea, if he didn't cost 30m. For now I'm a good 70% behind this idea. It could be great business if he comes, grows, matures, gives a good few years, and then gets sold to Madrid for Ronaldo numbers. Sadly there's no guarantee of that. We've seen countless come to United and not perform (Veron, Anderson, Djemba Djemba, etc), and we've seen countless potentials reach our favourite clubs only to get hindered by injury. My biggest concern has been needing a midfield maestro NOW. Moura is the future creative, but as I said pages ago, he's not the answer to today's problems. We need someone to replace Scholes immediately to control the pace of the match.

I definitely believe Tevez's Manchester bashing had an impact. (Although apparently Manchester has a cool nightlife, and none of United players actually live in Manchester, they all live in Cheshire, which from what I hear is a luxurious wealthier more reserved side of town). Putting it simply, as cool as it may be, it's no where near Paris living.

Ravel is joining Birmingham on loan right now, so I'm not really sure.



abovelegit1 said:
Obviously this move is still nothing but a rumor, but Ancelotti is one of the best and most successful managers in the world. He'll "look after" his young players just about as well as anyone, regardless of the players' descent.
As for your stance on the "oil money clubs" - all they're doing is improving their squads so they can compete on all levels. The situation at those clubs is very similar to other big clubs - if you're not good enough, you're not good enough, and you won't become an automatic starter until you are. Once again, how's Chicharito's game prospects looking? How many 90 minute games is Cleverly going to play? As hp touched on, Moura wouldn't start over Valencia and Nani anyway. So why would United be a better club for him again? At PSG he'll be under a world class manager, making great money, while living in Paris, and still competing for trophies, without the excessive pressure of being at one of the biggest clubs which actually can stunt development. You seem to be under the impression that Ferguson is infallible, when Anderson - the last highly rated Brazilian to come to United - has failed to live up to expectation.
I don't think they're better clubs overall, but the ownership certainly is. I'd much rather have an owner willing to put his own money into the club as opposed to an owner who utilizes a leveraged buyout to takeover while saddling the club with a mountain of debt.
Champ, I don't see any difference to the dark side of his game, except that everything is magnified when you play for Barca. CR has def toned it down, but when things aren't going his way he's more than willing. That second Valencia game comes to mind, but nbd.
Click to expand...

Good looking out on the Ancelotti info. As I said, I really don't know too much about him.
Chicha's issues I believe stem from some sort of brain condition he has. I remember reading that he already had issues a few days after signing to United. Then he had that amazing season, had a concussion and began to slow down in form. Cleverly I don't think is good enough for United at this point. He's just not ready. As for the Moura over Nani/Valencia (realistically, I believe if SAF got Moura, he would have sold Anderson-and slotted him in there for now). I don't think SAF is infallible, he's made PLENTY of bad decisions, most recently Bebe :x. However, the amount of young talent that he has found, groomed and made into greatness can't be argued. No one will get 100% success when finding gems, but he's success rate is pretty damn high.

Lastly what I forgot to add yesterday to my post, was that money is generally the motivation, but sometimes, it's not always the players financial hunger. Your agent is always going to present the "best deal" and motivate you to take it. But often times the "best deal" comes with a nice hefty package for the agent. Case in point:
"Manchester United are pulling out of the race for Brazilian whizzkid Lucas Moura – because his ‘camp’ want an eye-watering £6million in fees." (http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footb...chester-united-transfers-lucas-mouras-1227855). The club wants 25m for the player, but the added 6m in fees is apparently pushing the price up to 30m+. Essentially, sometimes it's the player, sometimes it's his camp, but the bottom line really here is, money is the motivation (or maybe the papers have just been winding us up the entire time).
 
Cesc Fàbregas Soler ‏@cesc4official

I'm so happy to hear that my mate Santi Cazorla is finally a gooner. Top guy, special player. A great signing! Come onnn!
Click to expand...


He's still a Gooner at heart.
 

Never said money wasn't at the forefront of the proposed deal - of course it could be the deciding factor. My point was that going there could be a good move regardless of money for the various reasons i brought up. Apparently the player owns 30% of his rights and wants to be compensated for that which PSG seem willing to do.

And I don't want to give the impression that I actually like the Chelseas and PSGs of the world. Of course I'd rather see clubs build through their academies, and not fire coaches on a whim. But the game is what it is - a big business that demands results, and clubs aren't breaking any rules so I don't have a problem with them putting their resources towards fulfilling their ambitions.

Sidenote; Ancelotti's autobiography is a fantastic read. The guy is pretty hilarious, and was a great player in his day as well. Highly recommended for any football fan.
 
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Cazorla is good business.

Curious if the Arsenal fans are confident in the current backline or think they need 1/2 signings there.
 
Is it 100% RvP will leave Arsenal? Maybe the Cazorla signing could help sway him, as he's not world class but he's just a notch below, could provide some great service to him up top

-I also hope OL don't sell Lloris although if the price is right, its good business to do so....we need to get more than 12 million pounds though
 
trunks206 said:
Get the **** in! Its finally official.

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/arsenal-sign-spain-midfielder-santi-cazorla


Welcome to Arsenal Santi.
Click to expand...

:pimp: :pimp: :pimp: :pimp:

cam-zeekey-o.gif



DLo13 said:
Cazorla is good business.

Curious if the Arsenal fans are confident in the current backline or think they need 1/2 signings there.
Click to expand...

I think the potential Sahin loan, which is rumored to be almost done is the last piece of business we do. Unless we sell RvP and get another striker....in terms of buying. For AW [players back from injury and players promoted to the first team are like a new signing]. New defense tactics are being implemented. Even if there was someone to loan that wouldn't be a bad idea. I think at least in the MF, we'll be a little more defensive now.
 
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Can't wait to get this damn season under way...week and a half.

Szec

Sagna - Verm - Kosc - Gibbs

Cazorla - Song - Arteta - Podolski

Rvp - Giroud


4-4-2 back? :smokin
 
On Monday, 2012 Olympic 100-meter champion Usain Bolt told a British newspaper that he'd like to play for Manchester United. On Tuesday, United star Rio Ferdinand offered to help, and the two exchanged tweets about the possibility.

SN: Bolt on the pitch?

SportsNation Usain Bolt may be the fastest man in the world, but could he excel at professional soccer?
Cast your vote!

"People think I am joking, but if Alex Ferguson called me up and said, 'OK let's do this, come and have a trial,' it would be impossible for me to say no," Bolt told the Sun on Monday. "I would not take up the challenge if I didn't think I was good enough. I am a very accomplished player and know I could make a difference."

On Tuesday, Rio Ferdinand sent this tweet to Bolt: "if you want that trial at Man Utd shout me, I'll speak to the boss!! Well done in 100m, waiting for you to smash the 200m now!"

Bolt replied: "After the Olympics we work on that...lol..thanks man".

Bolt won the Olympic 100 meters Sunday with a time of 9.63 seconds and advanced to the 200-meter semifinals Tuesday with a qualifying time of 20.39.

The 6-foot-5 Jamaican first met United coach Alex Ferguson and the team when he visited Manchester in 2009 to take part in a 150-meter sprint through the city streets.

"I would be the fastest player in the team -- but I can play as well," Bolt told the Sun. "I am in Britain for a few more days. If Alex Ferguson wants to give me a call, he knows where I am. I definitely want to see what I could do. I think I could step up to the Rooneys."

A United spokesman told the Sun: "As the fastest man on Earth, he would undoubtedly add speed to the team."
 
Make no mistake Santi Cazorla is a world class player, he was the fourth best player in La Liga last season only behind Messi, Ronaldo & Iniesta. 

Would love to see us get a new keeper, I like Szczesny but he makes a lot of mistakes. 
 
DLo13 said:
Cazorla is good business.
Curious if the Arsenal fans are confident in the current backline or think they need 1/2 signings there.
Click to expand...
I am definitely satisfied with our current defense.

Left Back: Gibbs and Santos. Both are good enough to start but I prefer Gibbs simply because he is more sound defensively.

Right Back: Sagna and Jenkinson. Sagna is one of the most consistent right backs out there and although Jenkinson is a raw talent, he can fill in till Sagna returns from injury.

Center Back: Vermaelen, Koscielny and Mertesacker are three top class international defenders. Our fourth option is one of Djourou, Miquel or Bartley depending on who gets loaned out or sold. Not the best of defenders but they won't be seeing much playing time outside of the Carling Cup or a serious injury.
Jada2001Retro said:
Can't wait to get this damn season under way...week and a half.
Szec
Sagna - Verm - Kosc - Gibbs
Cazorla - Song - Arteta - Podolski

Rvp - Giroud
4-4-2 back?
smokin.gif
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I'm still expecting RVP to be sold before the season starts. I think too much damage has been done and he has his mind set on a move. Even if he stays, I doubt we will see a return to the 4-4-2. The 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 formation provides our defense with more protection and are wingers are more wide forwards than they are midfielders. Either way, can't wait for the new season to start already.
 
Jada2001Retro said:
Can't wait to get this damn season under way...week and a half.

Szec

Sagna - Verm - Kosc - Gibbs

Cazorla - Song - Arteta - Podolski

Rvp - Giroud


4-4-2 back? :smokin
Click to expand...

Arsenal's my second favorite team, but even with the additions and say RvP stays...I still think that squad finishes 4th adgain this yr, 3rd at best. City, United, and I think Chelsea will show better in the PL this yr as they've improved their depth (drogba hurts but still)...Vermaelen is usually injured foor some time during the yr, and I guess they have Mertesaecker to cover but speed isn't his strength....their defense struggled at times last season due to injury and they went through some spells where they looked completely clueless. All that being said though, that line up is improved over last year's team so who knows
 
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