White Guy Talks About White Privelege and Whether It Exists Or Not

[joseph camel jr]

Originally Posted by ThunderChunk69

Originally Posted by Joseph Camel Jr

the issue is that its still around, the orator in the video says its "white privilege" to believe that its already gone, and even if it was, its about 2 generations or less ago... sounds pretty important.

and i acknowledged that a few posts back.

saying whites enjoy privileges over minorities in most cases in the us is like saying grass is green. dude comes at me like i denied its existence.


nobody's offered a single real response to my question.

 

[the fame]

Originally Posted by Joseph Camel Jr

Originally Posted by ThunderChunk69

Originally Posted by Joseph Camel Jr

the issue is that its still around, the orator in the video says its "white privilege" to believe that its already gone, and even if it was, its about 2 generations or less ago... sounds pretty important.

and i acknowledged that a few posts back.

saying whites enjoy privileges over minorities in most cases in the us is like saying grass is green. dude comes at me like i denied its existence.


nobody's offered a single real response to my question.

I think where racism orginated and white privilage are 2 different discussions.

 

[retr0sxual]

Dude sounded like he was at Def Poetry Jam.

 

[optimusprimeaphia]

Originally Posted by retr0sxual

Dude sounded like he was at Def Poetry Jam.

Besides that lame ignorant comment

I'll derail any comments suggesting that he is a baptist christian or anything resembling a preacher


in a talk he made this year he actually ID's himself as an agnostic male with an agnostic family. So dude is as impartial as one can be...

 

[i be john mayer]

This is a debate between Time Wise and well respected White Nationalist Jared Taylor.



Just go to� part 2 in "related videos" and so on.� Very interesting debate.

 

[raptors29]

Originally Posted by GTEK

This really makes me mad.

I know black leaders who have been saying the same thing for years and years...

But people only want to hear and give credit when a white guys says it???

But as long as the messages gets out. then cool.

Even though it's wrong, it's better for the message to get out.

 

[air kalo]

I knew haze would be in the building.

 

[i be john mayer]

Joseph Camel Jr wrote:

---

Originally Posted by abeautifulhaze

I knew this was Tim Wise before I clicked on this thread

Good bidness OP.

Joseph Camel Jr wrote:

---

i guess from a historical perspective that's interesting and all, but i don't see why it matters how or why or where racism originated.

not trying to say it's meaningless, but how does that help?

[h1]irony[/h1]- 5 dictionary results

[h2]i⋅ro⋅ny[/h2]1   /ˈaɪ

rə

ni, ˈaɪ

ər-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-] Show IPA
Use irony in a Sentence

-noun, plural -nies.

8. an objectively or humorously sardonic utterance, disposition, quality, etc.

Perfect example of white privilege.

Not even having to think about why knowing the origin of racism is important.


typical response from you.

i asked how it helps. don't give me the "those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it" garbage either.

and you want to talk irony? let's talk about your� black empowerment rhetoric that crosses into the territory of the racism you preach against, or your primitive, bigoted views on homosexuality.�

get outta here.


You know how this helps?

Most of the political points of the�Right Wing�involving the subject of race's impact of economics and education is based on the notion that Whiteprivilege does not exist.� If you have someone out there on an actual college lecture circuit disproving this, there are alot of conversations taking placeafter those lectures amongs educated Whites.� Let's face it, Black people talk about this until faces get blue, but when does this conversation reallyenter the White collective conciousness? And not even the idea of "White Privilege", but the idea that racism is really just a tool used by the Eliteto control poorer Whites, rather than just for the Elite to control people of color.� There are alot of Whites who think that they are progressive, and thisguy travelling the country challenging just how progressive these rich educated Whites think they are is going to do alot.

 

[superantigen]

Originally Posted by I Be John Mayer

Joseph Camel Jr wrote:

---

Originally Posted by abeautifulhaze

I knew this was Tim Wise before I clicked on this thread

Good bidness OP.

Joseph Camel Jr wrote:

---

i guess from a historical perspective that's interesting and all, but i don't see why it matters how or why or where racism originated.

not trying to say it's meaningless, but how does that help?

[h1]irony[/h1]- 5 dictionary results

[h2]i⋅ro⋅ny[/h2]1   /ˈaɪ

rə

ni, ˈaɪ

ər-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-] Show IPA
Use irony in a Sentence

-noun, plural -nies.

8. an objectively or humorously sardonic utterance, disposition, quality, etc.

Perfect example of white privilege.

Not even having to think about why knowing the origin of racism is important.

typical response from you.

i asked how it helps. don't give me the "those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it" garbage either.

and you want to talk irony? let's talk about your� black empowerment rhetoric that crosses into the territory of the racism you preach against, or your primitive, bigoted views on homosexuality.�

get outta here.


�
Haze -- +1
J.Camel -- +1

Considering both of you were, in fact, on point with your exchanges...

On another note, am I the only who is somewhat saddened by the fact that Tim Wise is receiving "air time" on Niketalk only after his video was postedon WorldStarHipHop...

I'm sure quite a few people in this thread were already familiar with him--myself included--and that's great. But I can't help but feel a bit sadknowing that a profound and visionary orator like this, speaking on matters that would greatly empower and enlighten young blacks and minorities, (and I'mpurposely emphasizing young blacks and other "minorities", as opposed to young whites, simply because in my opinion, it is the former group that hasthe most to gain by learning about the dynamics of white privilege, among other things, relative to the latter), is probably only now being exposed to thegreater aforementioned community simply because one of his talks ended up on a site dedicated to hip-hop culture, and its consumers--

I suppose this then leads to the question--are certain populations, demographics that have the most to gain from this kind of knowledge, making an activeeffort to seek this kind of information out, not just when their victimization becomes overtly apparent, but at all times. Or do they stumble across this kindof education, the type that is DEFINITELY NOT TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS, only by random chance--word to Tim Wise just popping up on WSHH.

Maybe I'm just thinking too much right now. Heck, everything I'm typing right now is speculative. But in my defense, if it took this long for a threadlike THIS to end up on NT, where race-related threads and debates seem to be standard fare, only after he was "discovered" on WSHH, you can'thelp but wonder whether people are actively venturing forth to seek knowledge, or just waiting for it to drop in on them...

...

 

[aubstuh86]

WHITE POWER

 

[jthagreat]

Originally Posted by Joseph Camel Jr

Originally Posted by ThunderChunk69

Originally Posted by Joseph Camel Jr

the issue is that its still around, the orator in the video says its "white privilege" to believe that its already gone, and even if it was, its about 2 generations or less ago... sounds pretty important.

and i acknowledged that a few posts back.

saying whites enjoy privileges over minorities in most cases in the us is like saying grass is green. dude comes at me like i denied its existence.


nobody's offered a single real response to my question.

if you watch the video, he takes on your question/argument. They did polls on do you think minorities are treated "well?" They answered yes in 1850,1870, 1920, 1950, 1960 and so on. so its not necessarily the true origin of racism, but the whole "repeatin history" argument is not hogwash like youare makin it out to be... just watch the video.

 

[DVMNXK]

That was a good watch.

 

[abeautifulhaze]

Someone who admittedly doesn't know the history of racism accuses me of being racist....should I even acknowledge his statement?

And all of that Blacks would oppress Asians, Asians would oppress Latino's etc...is total ahistorical BS.

 

[joseph camel jr]

Originally Posted by abeautifulhaze

Someone who admittedly doesn't know the history of racism accuses me of being racist....should I even acknowledge his statement?

if i make a sexist comment and someone who hasn't extensively studied the history of sexism accuses me of being sexist, it doesn't matter? bulletprooflogic as always.

ignoring the racism aspect altogether, you've already proved yourself to be a bigot who clings to misinformation as the backing for his arguments.

 

[abeautifulhaze]

When I make a racist statement call me on it...don't be a coward and throw around blanket insults after the fact.

When I speak on race...I chose my words very carefully and back up my arguments with facts.

All of my years on NT...I have never been accused of racism in a race thread because I deal with reality and history.

Sorry if I offended your sense of privilege and innocence.

 

[joseph camel jr]

Originally Posted by abeautifulhaze

When I make a racist statement call me on it...don't be a coward and throw around blanket insults after the fact.

lol i'm a coward now? this is the internet where total anonymity is provided to anyone, that word doesn't even apply. sorry i don'trespond to each and every one of your posts the moment they happen.

Originally Posted by abeautifulhaze

When I speak on race...I chose my words very carefully and back up my arguments with facts.

Originally Posted by Joseph Camel Jr

ignoring the racism aspect altogether, you've already proved yourself to be a bigot who clings to misinformation as the backing for his arguments.

Originally Posted by abeautifulhaze

All of my years on NT...I have never been accused of racism in a race thread because I deal with reality and history.

Sorry if I offended your sense of privilege and innocence.

i'm pretty sure you have, in the "black enlightenment" thread no less. but frankly who cares?

to the last part- lol what?

 

[abeautifulhaze]

I'm not getting into a spitting match with you fam...carry on.

 

[soarin pass the moon]

Living in a white man's world, nothingnew.

 

[iblink]

That was definitely an hour well spent.

Great speaker and the message is one that ought to be heard. I'm impressed most that he didn't come off as someone who's speaking out because ofguilt, but rather a sense of responsibility to seek improvement. That CEO analogy was dead on.

Back when our Attorney General said that the US was a nation of cowards in regards to tackling issues of race, I agreed with him 100%. Hopefully Tim Wise'smessage can reach a more broad audience.

 

[i be john mayer]

*notices Joe Camel Jr. chooses with whom he debates with startling consistency*

 

[abeautifulhaze]

Originally Posted by I Be John Mayer

This is a debate between Time Wise and well respected White Nationalist Jared Taylor.



Just go to� part 2 in "related videos" and so on.� Very interesting debate.

 

[zerogravity23]

good watch.

 

[airmaxpenny1]

Saw Tim Wise speak a couple years ago at my high school, great speaker. And he has been doing this his whole life, he has written many books, I would suggestreading "White Like Me".

 

[-Red-]

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

Originally Posted by red mpls

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

Originally Posted by Essential1

I know there are more whites than blacks or Hispanics in this country (for now. I believe by 2044 1 study says there will be less whites than every other race combined) but I am making the point of it happens and I'm glad you can see that. It is just to prove wait a minute no 1 race does things.

best way is to keep saying it is no longer acceptable to have this in society and keep speaking up. No matter what the consequence. I almost lost my first job over speaking up. But whether it being that you are called a complainer because you are black and trying to show people your pain.. Or like me being called names, ridiculed or whatever they want to say because I am white and I have the ability to see the injustices that happen. Things don't change if you say well people are set in their ways and we have to live with it. We did the opposite in the last election and said enough of the bs we need something different, we don't care if you don't like it times change.

People want social progress, they want things to change. But someone has to be the face for such progress because no one wants to do it their selves.

You can't change human nature or the way societies evolve. Point blank. That's the truth.
Humanity thrives on cycles. Nothing really changes permanently.

If it's not white folks oppressing blacks. Then it'll be Blacks oppressing Asians or Latinos oppressing blacks. Or Asians oppressing whites.
We're no better or worse off than humans who lived hundreds and thousands of years ago socially or politically.

I'm telling you that the modern day US is the closest thing you will get to "equality". Whether that be gender equality, ethnicity equality, etc.
Equality, in any sense, is a fallacy. It has never existed and will never exist for anybody. The human condition will not allow for it because human intelligence will not allow for it. In essence, we're too smart for our own good.
Racism, oppression, and inequality are too useful as tools in societies for humans to give up. Every ethnicity practices or has practiced this in various forms throughout human history.

Slavery did not end because Whites felt bad about what they were doing. Slavery ended because it outlived it's usefulness in America specifically when it came to the Northern states wanting to impose their will on the South at the end of the civil war. What better way to dominate the South than to cripple them economically for decades to come? It was not because the Northern political elite wanted to end any injustice.
Although there was a small subset who had noble intentions that was not why Slavery was abolished.

Same goes for Jim Crow. The Jim Crow laws were abolished because the risk was getting to be too great; namely that of an uprising by oppressed Black Americans ( Black panthers, Malcolm X, Nation of Islam, Student groups, etc) combined with more and more outrage from White America regarding the Vietnam war.
The political elite in the US had to save their own +#@*+ so they diverted attention way from the war and focused it on ending segregation in the South. They didn't do it out of any altruism. It was simply a political decision. Just like Slavery, it had outlived its usefulness as a tool for the political and economic elite.
They sacrificed Jim Crow in order to continue the War in Vietnam. This action alone should tell you what racism is all about in societies and it has very little to do with race.

What I'm trying to say is that a much of the focus regarding racism is directed in the completely wrong direction. Since it is evident that institutional racism is a valuable tool of the political and economic elite across many different societies it is utterly foolish to prescribe any solution in which the common person is labeled as the problem. It plays into the hands of the political and economic elite when people debate the topic of "race relations" or "institutional racism" and it includes the 99% of individuals who are not really the problem.


I'd like to write a ton more because a thorough explanation needs a lot more than a few paragraphs..........

Well thought-out and articulated post, however, I disagree with a lot of what you posted...

People CAN change the way that their society evolves. You made that point yourself later in your own post by (correctly) stating that Jim Crow laws were abolished largely to prevent widespread civil uprising by Black citizens and others who believed in their fight for basic civil and human right and not out of some massive change of heart by whites in power. As you alluded to, power concedes nothing; however, that does not mean that a grassroots movement by a dedicated and significant group of people cannot create effective change.

Also, I don't think that there is ample evidence to suggest that, especially in the last 100 years, racial oppression will occur whenever any racial group has the power to inflict such oppression. This has been a largely European phenomenon, and I think it is highly inaccurate and harmful to excuse whites' oppression of colored peoples across the world as simply human nature and conclude (with little to no evidence) that any racial or ethnic group would act in the same fashion given the same opportunity. Racial oppression is not human nature and different cultures have values which differ from those of many Europeans, who highly value colonizing other countries and exploiting others in order to garner excess wealth and material goods.

You also claim that modern U.S. society is the closest any nation will ever come to true "equality." However, in the last 150 years, U.S. society has undergone drastic transformations in regards to equality for citizens who are Black, women, homosexuals, etc. Given these drastic changes, what leads you to the conclusion that truer equality cannot be achieved in our society? The Suffrage Movement, Labor Movements, and Civil Rights Movement prove otherwise.

As for oppression being too useful to be done away with, I agree that those in power will probably never willingly eradicate injustice or oppression. Also, as long as people in this country buy into the illusion (perpetuated by the true elite and mindlessly internalized by the massess) that free-market capitalism = democracy = equality, oppression and injustice will always exist. However, as we have both acknowledged, change can be brought about by social movements, and given that fact, there is always potential for change. I do think that it will take people questioning our society's misguided values (individualism, greed, materialism, etc.) for something close to true equality to be achieved in this country.

That was a great video, by the way...

You're right in that there were those who fought against Jim Crow for altruistic reasons and specifically for more equality but that was not the reason that segregation was abolished.
It was done purely for political reasons. Threats of an uprising do not always work out as they did during the Crow era. More often than not, the minority who is threatening an uprising gets put down fairly violently.

The US does have more of a propensity to change because it is a young nation (in the historical sense) and the number one "tradition", above all else, is business (wealth). However, "true equality" can never be attained because it poses a big problem for the political and economic elite (in any society). Ethnic and class warfare are the two most powerful tools used by the elites to initiate conflict between the "commoners". Divide and conquer is a proven strategy. Instead of the underclasses focusing on how those with real power abuse that power they are too busy fighting each other believing that a solution can be achieved. When in reality the problem did not originate with those whom they are fighting.

Lets put it this way. Say you work 80 hrs per week to make ends meet. I come to you and start telling you how hard I work putting in 90 hrs/week and how much it sucks. Would you really have muchy sympathy? Probably not. At the very least you'd be annoyed. You'd be thingking "#+$? just ++#%. Everybody works hard. Ain't nothing special about you."
Same goes for for the concept of "white privelege". Explain the concept to the average white American and they'll just go, "#+$? you think I'm living like a trust fund baby?". Of course, in a certain sense, most Whites know that Black Americans face more obstacles throughout their lifetime but they don't want to hear it because life isn't all too peachy for most Whites either.

Say the Elite is at the top; 100. The average White may be around 50. While the average Black American may be around 35. Realitevly speaking, 50 to 100 seems about the same as 35 to 100. Of course it's not technically, but humans operate on a relative basis. That's why many Whites seem apathatic to something that they may even acknowledge as the truth.
Furthermore, all that these arguments serve to do is actually inflame prejudice and racism rather than resolve it. Naturally, people do not like being blamed for somethign that they have no control of and are not respnsible for.

If you really look at what has changed in terms of race relations since the inception of the US there hasn't beem much change at all. The facade or the public face may have changed but things aren't all that different.If it isn't slavery then it's Jim Crow. If it isn't Jim crow then it's the judicial/prison system.

There is a solution to this and it doesn't have much to do with demanding equality from those (the elites) who have no interest in granting that demand. Just as an example, Jews were persecuted and oppressed for centuries in Europe. There was never a movement to demand equality from those that oppressed you because it's nonsensical. The aim was always to become self sufficient where the inequality didn't matter much either way.

In regards to racism being a "White phenomenon" that is entrely untrue. It may seem like that today because for the past 400 or so years Europeans have experienced their "golden age" and have been dominating the world but sooner or later, that will end. All civilizations have used Racism because it is a powerful economic and political tool. It is not exclusive to any ethnicity.

Minority uprisings (or the threat of them) are more often than not (across the world) repressed violently. This is actually true of the modernCivil Rights Movement in the U.S. as well, although on a (comparatively) more moderate scale; this repression was carried out on the personal level (lynchings,bombings, etc.) as well as on the institutional level (COINTELPRO, police brutality, martial law, dismantling of the Black Panthers, assassination of King andMalcolm X, etc.). But at the end of the day, the movement was (largely) effective in what it was trying to accomplish. I'm not sure what "purelypolitical" reasons de jure segregation was abolished you're referring to; distracting the U.S. populace from the Vietnam War makes sense to a certaindegree but it Brown vs. Board of Education was passed in 1954, before the war even started. Also, the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964 and the VotingRights Act in 1965, before opposition to the war had become a widespread political "problem." The grassroots movement(s) known as the Civil RightsMovement effectively brought about the end of de jure segregation in this country; while other factors certainly contributed to these changes, the movementitself was without question the major catalyst.

I am unsure whether "true equality" can ever be achieved or not because, as you said, ethnic and class warfare are proven tactics used by the eliteto maintain power. However, I know that change is constant, and with this knowledge, I know that movement towards equality and justice is certainly possible. At the same token, change which exacerbates oppression and inequality is just as, if not more, likely. Thus, education, constant vigilance, and the ability tomobilize are necessary to ensure that change moves in the direction of equality and justice and not the opposite.

As for your argument about European Jews attaining self-sufficiency to offset persecution and oppression, I agree that this is a necessary part of the solutionfor Blacks in the U.S. (and Latinos for that matter) as far as achieving "equality." One dollar in the Jewish community is passed 26 times withinthe community before leaving while that same dollar is passed only 3 times in the Black community. That is definitely a problem. However, economicself-sufficiency did not stop the Holocaust from occurring. Without laws put in place to ensure the protection of historically (and currently) oppressedgroups, such a possibility is always possible (although likely never on the same scale). This is also where education of citizens becomes critical as wellbecause well-informed people who understand and can empathize with their fellow human beings are less likely to participate or stand idly by when suchpersecution occurs (which is where this video comes into play).

Also, I never intended to communicate that I thought racism is a "White phenomenon"; however, Europeans have utilized racism and imperialism fortheir own material benefit (as you acknowledged) more effectively and on a wider scale than any other group of people. While racism (or nationalism to be moreaccurate) have been utilized across the globe in the past, there is simply no evidence to prove that all (or even most) ethnic groups would oppress and exploitother racial groups as Europeans have done. Thus, to claim otherwise is largely hypothetical and not really based in fact.

 

[wawaweewa]

Originally Posted by red mpls



As for your argument about European Jews attaining self-sufficiency to offset persecution and oppression, I agree that this is a necessary part of the solution for Blacks in the U.S. (and Latinos for that matter) as far as achieving "equality." One dollar in the Jewish community is passed 26 times within the community before leaving while that same dollar is passed only 3 times in the Black community. That is definitely a problem. However, economic self-sufficiency did not stop the Holocaust from occurring. Without laws put in place to ensure the protection of historically (and currently) oppressed groups, such a possibility is always possible (although likely never on the same scale). This is also where education of citizens becomes critical as well because well-informed people who understand and can empathize with their fellow human beings are less likely to participate or stand idly by when such persecution occurs (which is where this video comes into play).

Also, I never intended to communicate that I thought racism is a "White phenomenon"; however, Europeans have utilized racism and imperialism for their own material benefit (as you acknowledged) more effectively and on a wider scale than any other group of people. While racism (or nationalism to be more accurate) have been utilized across the globe in the past, there is simply no evidence to prove that all (or even most) ethnic groups would oppress and exploit other racial groups as Europeans have done. Thus, to claim otherwise is largely hypothetical and not really based in fact.

The thing is nothing would have stopped the holocaust from happening barring all Jews fleeing Germany.
By the 1930's Jews were an integral part of German society. There were Jews at the highest levels of politics , commerce, entertainment, and the sciences.That didn't matter though.
Most of Germany's Jews were extremely nationalist. They thought of themselves as Germans first and Jews second. They did this because they believed thatthe discrimination would end if only they showed that they weren't different.

The holocaust actually provides a great example of how minority rights are always temporary. When it becomesconvenient from a political standpoint to oppress a minority again it is done fairly easily.
A minority can never attain true equality. Any equality that a minority attains can eb take away just as quickly ( of course it may take a bit longer in somesocities than in others ).

What I'm trying to say is that Black Americans can better spend their time negating inequality then by arguing moot points especially towards people (theaverage White who wasn't born wealthy, never owned slaves, etc.) who naturally ahve very little sympathy for such arguments.