"You have damaged your own race" Philadelphia mayor to black youth

[mo matik]

Some excellent posts I'm glad I made this thread.

A point I want to make to those critical of the Mayor is that they should also consider unemployment is currently a national issue, and is the number 1 concern of most Americans today. Federal budget cuts have also led to fewer summer jobs (look up HR-1, which caused Philadelphia to lose 60% of their youth summer job funding). Our current federal drug policy effectively keeps drugs in urban areas by the inflated profits due to prohibition. It also doesn't help when these kids are getting locked up or have records for simple possession of cannabis either.

 

[dipsetgeneral]

Originally Posted by o fenomeno

hes completely right tho.

Totally.

 

[fran215kill]

i have lived in philly all my life. im 18 and i hate this city. theres simply no excuse for any behavior like this and anyone that feels as though flashmobs can be justified would certainly feel differently about the situation if they or a loved one were caught in the middle of a flashmob. based off what i have seen, growing up here almost forces you to become racist. being a victim of a random crime whether it is based off race or its someone elses idea of fun makes it easy for small gangs and race wars to start. mayor nutter was wrong though about parents being involved in their kids lives, i have personally seen parents either driving the kids around to jump someone or helping them beat some kids. its ridiculous that this is okay in anyones eyes especially an adults. no one believes in a fair fight anymore it almost always end turning into a handful of kids fighting over nothing. No one grows up and the fighting never ends kids fight in the winter because theres never anything to do and in the summer because they have nothing else to do or worry about. race is not the issue its the city as a whole from the almost non existant police force and punishment for criminals to the ignorant citizen who dont see anything wrong with what is going one. if you know anyone from here with half a brain and isnt stung out on something they will tell you pretty much the same thing.

 

[mrmac9]

There is a positive tho at least we ninjas can unite for a cause ......now lets just make ir positve

 

[ervinsb91]

Originally Posted by vq35dett

I've been a teacher in a public school in Philly for a few years now and I deal with a lot of these kids everyday.  From my point of view, a large portion of the blame is on the kids and an even larger portion of the blame is on the parent(s).  The term kid or child here is used loosely seeing as quite a few of the minors arrested during these flash mobs were very close to 18 (some even older).  At some point, these kids have to start taking full responsibility for their actions, ESPECIALLY when parenting is transient or non-existent (not a popular sentiment).  It's not a good situation to be in where children are taking care of children, but it becomes a very tribal and evolutionary struggle where the strong survive.  Of course, many of our youths who are caught up in these situations think that being "strong" means being aggressive and violent to display prowess.  Unfortunately, this face-value approach to evolution simply doesn't work in modern society where true strength is most directly derived from intellectual ability and mental robustness.  This is hard to recognize without strong leadership (PARENTING) so children without this support often rely on the more convenient and socially acceptable behaviors such as acting out and being violent. 

Broadly, the flash mob issue in Philadelphia (and probably in Chicago and other urban areas) is an acute symptom of a very chronic illness with our youth.  The causes of this illness are very deeply rooted in societies and cultures and simply cannot be changed overnight.  I agree with Mayor Nutter's sentiment in that the actions, especially those that are repetitive, of a few bad apples allow the masses to form generalizations of a whole demographic.  Nutter is absolutely correct in saying that flash mobs, rude behavior, tattoos, sagging pants, etc. are triggers for people to look at African Americans a certain (negative) way.  Whether you like it or not, this perception is true.

In terms of trying to fix the flash mob problem right here, right now in the Summer of 2011 in Philadelphia, I think that Nutter is doing what he needs to do.  He is putting himself out in front of cameras and radio stations so that the kids in the city know that people are watching.  While there may not be an infinite amount of organized activities to participate in, there are things for kids to do.  Did everyone here really go to summer camp or play sports or have a job?  I didn't.  My dad never paid for me to go to camp or to play sports.  When I was too young to work, I just stayed at home or maybe went outside to play.  Why is that such a hard task these days?  I'm not sure and it's a tough question to answer.  Even tougher is the question of why boredom or frustration leads to such random acts of violence.  I'm from the school of thought where I think that this behavior should be treated similarly to PTSD (but that another discussion).

As a slight aside, and hopefully to stir up some positive discussion/brainstorming, I think that the overall trend of handouts needs to be ramped down.  Some kids are now growing up in a world where they get THREE full meals a day at school, free/subsidized housing, Accesscards (food stamps), and just a general lifestyle of handouts.  I understand the concept of welfare, I get why this great country has it.  Welfare needs to be a means to an end, not an end.  I honestly believe that generations of families who live off of welfare lead to societies where handouts are expected and all of a sudden, when something isn't easily attainable, excuses start flying.  Give an inch, take a mile.

Life's about getting real, getting down to business, and working hard to support your (hopefully positive) lifestyle.  Excuses don't mean anything.  Kick habits.  Stop fighting.  It's hard, trust me, I know.  What are the other options though? 

this post is perfect

 

[vq35dett]

Thanks for the positive comments on my post.

Just to offer a less elegant thought on this situation, I really think that a kid is going to get killed out there in center city one day when he messes with the wrong person or the wrong person sees a flash mob beating someone else up. With the pseudo-strict gun laws in the city (and almost non-existent in the state), a child will get shot. People are starting to see these incidents in the news more often now and are going to be more prepared to fight back. As a person who goes out in CC, flash mobs in the summer are things that I think about and I refuse to be the lone victim in a news article.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

Like my man Miyagi said, "No such thing as bad student, only bad teacher." If kids aren't taught how to act, how can they be expected to know how to act. We failed as older generations. Whether it is allowing our kids to be raised by entertainment, not being there as fathers, not taking a more active role in raising kids in our neighborhoods. The kids are the victims here. They raise each other.

 

[-Red-]

Originally Posted by sreggie101

Originally Posted by vq35dett

I've been a teacher in a public school in Philly for a few years now and I deal with a lot of these kids everyday.  From my point of view, a large portion of the blame is on the kids and an even larger portion of the blame is on the parent(s).  The term kid or child here is used loosely seeing as quite a few of the minors arrested during these flash mobs were very close to 18 (some even older).  At some point, these kids have to start taking full responsibility for their actions, ESPECIALLY when parenting is transient or non-existent (not a popular sentiment).  It's not a good situation to be in where children are taking care of children, but it becomes a very tribal and evolutionary struggle where the strong survive.  Of course, many of our youths who are caught up in these situations think that being "strong" means being aggressive and violent to display prowess.  Unfortunately, this face-value approach to evolution simply doesn't work in modern society where true strength is most directly derived from intellectual ability and mental robustness.  This is hard to recognize without strong leadership (PARENTING) so children without this support often rely on the more convenient and socially acceptable behaviors such as acting out and being violent. 

Broadly, the flash mob issue in Philadelphia (and probably in Chicago and other urban areas) is an acute symptom of a very chronic illness with our youth.  The causes of this illness are very deeply rooted in societies and cultures and simply cannot be changed overnight.  I agree with Mayor Nutter's sentiment in that the actions, especially those that are repetitive, of a few bad apples allow the masses to form generalizations of a whole demographic.  Nutter is absolutely correct in saying that flash mobs, rude behavior, tattoos, sagging pants, etc. are triggers for people to look at African Americans a certain (negative) way.  Whether you like it or not, this perception is true.

In terms of trying to fix the flash mob problem right here, right now in the Summer of 2011 in Philadelphia, I think that Nutter is doing what he needs to do.  He is putting himself out in front of cameras and radio stations so that the kids in the city know that people are watching.  While there may not be an infinite amount of organized activities to participate in, there are things for kids to do.  Did everyone here really go to summer camp or play sports or have a job?  I didn't.  My dad never paid for me to go to camp or to play sports.  When I was too young to work, I just stayed at home or maybe went outside to play.  Why is that such a hard task these days?  I'm not sure and it's a tough question to answer.  Even tougher is the question of why boredom or frustration leads to such random acts of violence.  I'm from the school of thought where I think that this behavior should be treated similarly to PTSD (but that another discussion).

As a slight aside, and hopefully to stir up some positive discussion/brainstorming, I think that the overall trend of handouts needs to be ramped down.  Some kids are now growing up in a world where they get THREE full meals a day at school, free/subsidized housing, Accesscards (food stamps), and just a general lifestyle of handouts.  I understand the concept of welfare, I get why this great country has it.  Welfare needs to be a means to an end, not an end.  I honestly believe that generations of families who live off of welfare lead to societies where handouts are expected and all of a sudden, when something isn't easily attainable, excuses start flying.  Give an inch, take a mile.

Life's about getting real, getting down to business, and working hard to support your (hopefully positive) lifestyle.  Excuses don't mean anything.  Kick habits.  Stop fighting.  It's hard, trust me, I know.  What are the other options though? 

One of the strongest most asinine posts i've read on NT so far.

Fixed.

To address the post though...

Originally Posted by vq35dett

I've been a teacher in a public school in Philly for a few years now and I deal with a lot of these kids everyday.  From my point of view, a large portion of the blame is on the kids and an even larger portion of the blame is on the parent(s).  The term kid or child here is used loosely seeing as quite a few of the minors arrested during these flash mobs were very close to 18 (some even older).  At some point, these kids have to start taking full responsibility for their actions, ESPECIALLY when parenting is transient or non-existent (not a popular sentiment).  It's not a good situation to be in where children are taking care of children, but it becomes a very tribal and evolutionary struggle where the strong survive.  Of course, many of our youths who are caught up in these situations think that being "strong" means being aggressive and violent to display prowess.  Unfortunately, this face-value approach to evolution simply doesn't work in modern society where true strength is most directly derived from intellectual ability and mental robustness.  This is hard to recognize without strong leadership (PARENTING) so children without this support often rely on the more convenient and socially acceptable behaviors such as acting out and being violent. 

Nothing of value was stated here.  It's easy to simply blame these young people for their actions with no further examination or analysis of the issues really affecting their lives AND the lives of their parents (and no, I'm not talking about the simple "blame the parents" routine which you also cited).  Of course everyone is responsible for their own actions, however, we as a society are responsible for ensuring that our young people grow up with their basic needs met and with the necessary resources and opportunities to achieve their full human potential.  That is the elephant in the room and that's why the mayor's words are a joke.  He, like you and like most people in this country, pick the easiest targets and place full blame and responsibility on them for actions which grew out of horrible situations that they had no hand in creating.

Also, these young people don't have the resources to develop their intellectual abilities and "mental robustness" that many others do.  They're simply trying to adapt and survive in an area of our society where those things are not valued in the traditional sense because opportunities to develop and to subsequently utilize them by way of making a living have been extremely impinged by structural and institutional factors.

Originally Posted by vq35dett

Broadly, the flash mob issue in Philadelphia (and probably in Chicago and other urban areas) is an acute symptom of a very chronic illness with our youth.  The causes of this illness are very deeply rooted in societies and cultures and simply cannot be changed overnight.  I agree with Mayor Nutter's sentiment in that the actions, especially those that are repetitive, of a few bad apples allow the masses to form generalizations of a whole demographic.  Nutter is absolutely correct in saying that flash mobs, rude behavior, tattoos, sagging pants, etc. are triggers for people to look at African Americans a certain (negative) way.  Whether you like it or not, this perception is true.

You seem to be delving into slightly more nuanced thinking here, although the "chronic illness" you describe lies within our broader society and has infected and negatively affected our youth.  The causes of this are deeply rooted in social and institutional structures and practices as well as "cultural" adaptations that simply saying "everyone has to take full responsibility for their actions" alludes to a complete and utter failure to grasp these larger forces at work.

Originally Posted by vq35dett

In terms of trying to fix the flash mob problem right here, right now in the Summer of 2011 in Philadelphia, I think that Nutter is doing what he needs to do.  He is putting himself out in front of cameras and radio stations so that the kids in the city know that people are watching.  While there may not be an infinite amount of organized activities to participate in, there are things for kids to do.  Did everyone here really go to summer camp or play sports or have a job?  I didn't.  My dad never paid for me to go to camp or to play sports.  When I was too young to work, I just stayed at home or maybe went outside to play.  Why is that such a hard task these days?  I'm not sure and it's a tough question to answer.  Even tougher is the question of why boredom or frustration leads to such random acts of violence.  I'm from the school of thought where I think that this behavior should be treated similarly to PTSD (but that another discussion).

So what the mayor "needs to do" is pose in front of cameras and talk on the radio about bashing young people?  That's going to solve or alleviate the situation?  You can't really think that

Tell us all what there is for young people who are 16, 17, 18 years old to do during summer months?  Tell us where they can go.  You ask why is it a hard task for young people to "stay at home or maybe go outside to play."  It's hard to stay at home when you're living in inadequate housing and there are seven people in a two-bedroom apartment with no air conditioning.  And these young people ARE going outside to "play" but there is little to nothing constructive for them to direct their energies.

Do you really think it's just "boredom" or simply "frustration" that leads young people to doing these things?  And what are the roots of this "frustration?"  Many young people in these communities DO have PTSD and are NOT being treated for it.  Don't you think that's an issue??

Originally Posted by vq35dett

As a slight aside, and hopefully to stir up some positive discussion/brainstorming, I think that the overall trend of handouts needs to be ramped down.  Some kids are now growing up in a world where they get THREE full meals a day at school, free/subsidized housing, Accesscards (food stamps), and just a general lifestyle of handouts.  I understand the concept of welfare, I get why this great country has it.  Welfare needs to be a means to an end, not an end.  I honestly believe that generations of families who live off of welfare lead to societies where handouts are expected and all of a sudden, when something isn't easily attainable, excuses start flying.  Give an inch, take a mile.

Life's about getting real, getting down to business, and working hard to support your (hopefully positive) lifestyle.  Excuses don't mean anything.  Kick habits.  Stop fighting.  It's hard, trust me, I know.  What are the other options though? 

You really have a problem that young people who come from impoverished families get free or reduced price meals in school?  Honestly, what the hell is wrong with you?  Would you rather have kids hungry all day?  How will they learn ANYTHING?  And God forbid we subsidize their family's housing to ensure that they have a roof over their heads.  Or provide them with resources to buy food to feed themselves.  You can think what you want about the parents in these situations (although that's another discussion) but what about the children??  What is the alternative when living wage employment isn't attainable (because it's not)??

 

[vq35dett]

Originally Posted by red mpls

To address the post though...

Originally Posted by vq35dett

I've been a teacher in a public school in Philly for a few years now and I deal with a lot of these kids everyday.  From my point of view, a large portion of the blame is on the kids and an even larger portion of the blame is on the parent(s).  The term kid or child here is used loosely seeing as quite a few of the minors arrested during these flash mobs were very close to 18 (some even older).  At some point, these kids have to start taking full responsibility for their actions, ESPECIALLY when parenting is transient or non-existent (not a popular sentiment).  It's not a good situation to be in where children are taking care of children, but it becomes a very tribal and evolutionary struggle where the strong survive.  Of course, many of our youths who are caught up in these situations think that being "strong" means being aggressive and violent to display prowess.  Unfortunately, this face-value approach to evolution simply doesn't work in modern society where true strength is most directly derived from intellectual ability and mental robustness.  This is hard to recognize without strong leadership (PARENTING) so children without this support often rely on the more convenient and socially acceptable behaviors such as acting out and being violent. 

Nothing of value was stated here.  It's easy to simply blame these young people for their actions with no further examination or analysis of the issues really affecting their lives AND the lives of their parents (and no, I'm not talking about the simple "blame the parents" routine which you also cited).  Of course everyone is responsible for their own actions, however, we as a society are responsible for ensuring that our young people grow up with their basic needs met and with the necessary resources and opportunities to achieve their full human potential.  That is the elephant in the room and that's why the mayor's words are a joke.  He, like you and like most people in this country, pick the easiest targets and place full blame and responsibility on them for actions which grew out of horrible situations that they had no hand in creating.

As a society, to what lengths must we go to "ensure" that our young people grow up with everything they need to reach their full potential?  What needs are not being met?  Are we still talking about a lack of summer activities?  This is a big time cop out.  Are we talking about food?  Not in Philadelphia  (maybe here...http://www.cnn.com/2011/H...g.ahmed.gupta/index.html ).  Are we talking about housing?  Are we talking about parks?  Are we talking about schools?  The school I work at is very well equipped with the latest technology and a surplus of supplies.  We also had a student:teacher ratio of roughly 14:1.  What does society need to do?  The huge issue is parenting.  Bad parenting (children raising children, one parent households, etc.) is becoming a generational problem in these communities.  Has this issue spawned due to a lack of societal assistance?  Is this a birth control issue?  There would be no way that any politician would be able to continue his/her career if they started to address issues of true birth control and bad parenting.   

Also, these young people don't have the resources to develop their intellectual abilities and "mental robustness" that many others do.  They're simply trying to adapt and survive in an area of our society where those things are not valued in the traditional sense because opportunities to develop and to subsequently utilize them by way of making a living have been extremely impinged by structural and institutional factors.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a good number of my students with a 3.0 GPA and an SAT score around the 60th percentile or higher have a legitimate shot at a 4 year college.  Funding is always available for those who need it (merit, need, private, etc).  I've seen it happen time and time again.  Unfortunately, when you're in school and decide to go out of your way to get yourself kicked out of school then there's no way you can get grades.  What can society do about this?  Force students, regardless of behavior, to sit in a classroom?  Do we need better teachers?  Probably, but everyone in every district could use better teachers.  Can you clarify what factors you are talking about, maybe I am missing something.

Originally Posted by vq35dett

Broadly, the flash mob issue in Philadelphia (and probably in Chicago and other urban areas) is an acute symptom of a very chronic illness with our youth.  The causes of this illness are very deeply rooted in societies and cultures and simply cannot be changed overnight.  I agree with Mayor Nutter's sentiment in that the actions, especially those that are repetitive, of a few bad apples allow the masses to form generalizations of a whole demographic.  Nutter is absolutely correct in saying that flash mobs, rude behavior, tattoos, sagging pants, etc. are triggers for people to look at African Americans a certain (negative) way.  Whether you like it or not, this perception is true.

You seem to be delving into slightly more nuanced thinking here, although the "chronic illness" you describe lies within our broader society and has infected and negatively affected our youth.  The causes of this are deeply rooted in social and institutional structures and practices as well as "cultural" adaptations that simply saying "everyone has to take full responsibility for their actions" alludes to a complete and utter failure to grasp these larger forces at work.

What is the absolute bottom line though?  As a human being, what course of action can you take if the deck is stacked against you?  Do you wait for help from society or do you try to persevere?  It's not supposed to be easy and, perhaps unfortunately, using the age old "life isn't fair" statement may be the most humbling yet appropriate line to describe the circumstances of certain people.

Originally Posted by vq35dett

In terms of trying to fix the flash mob problem right here, right now in the Summer of 2011 in Philadelphia, I think that Nutter is doing what he needs to do.  He is putting himself out in front of cameras and radio stations so that the kids in the city know that people are watching.  While there may not be an infinite amount of organized activities to participate in, there are things for kids to do.  Did everyone here really go to summer camp or play sports or have a job?  I didn't.  My dad never paid for me to go to camp or to play sports.  When I was too young to work, I just stayed at home or maybe went outside to play.  Why is that such a hard task these days?  I'm not sure and it's a tough question to answer.  Even tougher is the question of why boredom or frustration leads to such random acts of violence.  I'm from the school of thought where I think that this behavior should be treated similarly to PTSD (but that another discussion).

So what the mayor "needs to do" is pose in front of cameras and talk on the radio about bashing young people?  That's going to solve or alleviate the situation?  You can't really think that

Tell us all what there is for young people who are 16, 17, 18 years old to do during summer months?  Tell us where they can go.  You ask why is it a hard task for young people to "stay at home or maybe go outside to play."  It's hard to stay at home when you're living in inadequate housing and there are seven people in a two-bedroom apartment with no air conditioning.  And these young people ARE going outside to "play" but there is little to nothing constructive for them to direct their energies.

If you enjoy sports, football camps are already up and running.  I am personally involved in a youth baseball league where turnout is scarce (interest in baseball in urban areas has been horrible).

If you enjoy the arts, the Mural Arts program in Philadelphia is huge.

If you want to work, the guidance counselor at my school was literally giving out jobs to students (and still had more forms).  Our neighboring charter HS was doing the same.  I'd say that less than 10% of my students actually started work though.  Who's fault is this?

Just a few examples.  The whole nation is hurting right now.  Lots of things are being cut.  The strong will survive, what you think "strong" means will guide your life.

Do you really think it's just "boredom" or simply "frustration" that leads young people to doing these things?  And what are the roots of this "frustration?"  Many young people in these communities DO have PTSD and are NOT being treated for it.  Don't you think that's an issue??

The whole PTSD thing is an issue but, as I mentioned, I didn't want to get into a discussion about a huge problem that is very much going untreated.  My thesis work is on treating school violence as a public health issue and is somewhat focused on this concept of PTSD.  In terms of boredom or frustration, yes, I think that this is one of the last triggers that cause these kids to go out to South St. or CC to cause problems.  What leads to this boredom is a lack of involvement.  What leads to frustration is a deeper issue.  Again, looking at the end result, however, can we let kids off the hook because this boredom, frustration, or even anger is causing them to act out (REGARDLESS of the source of these feelings)?  We'll never get anywhere if we accept these excuses.

Originally Posted by vq35dett

As a slight aside, and hopefully to stir up some positive discussion/brainstorming, I think that the overall trend of handouts needs to be ramped down.  Some kids are now growing up in a world where they get THREE full meals a day at school, free/subsidized housing, Accesscards (food stamps), and just a general lifestyle of handouts.  I understand the concept of welfare, I get why this great country has it.  Welfare needs to be a means to an end, not an end.  I honestly believe that generations of families who live off of welfare lead to societies where handouts are expected and all of a sudden, when something isn't easily attainable, excuses start flying.  Give an inch, take a mile.

Life's about getting real, getting down to business, and working hard to support your (hopefully positive) lifestyle.  Excuses don't mean anything.  Kick habits.  Stop fighting.  It's hard, trust me, I know.  What are the other options though? 

You really have a problem that young people who come from impoverished families get free or reduced price meals in school?  Honestly, what the hell is wrong with you?  Would you rather have kids hungry all day?  How will they learn ANYTHING?  And God forbid we subsidize their family's housing to ensure that they have a roof over their heads.  Or provide them with resources to buy food to feed themselves.  You can think what you want about the parents in these situations (although that's another discussion) but what about the children??  What is the alternative when living wage employment isn't attainable (because it's not)??

Now you're starting to lose your gusto here a little bit.  I never stated that I don't want hungry kids to eat.  I said that the program needs to be ramped down.  Do I have a problem with kids getting free food if they need it?  Absolutely not.  Do I have a problem when kids come to school with nice clothes, parents are driving nice cars, and then they get free food?  YES.  Moreover, I have a huge issue with kids developing a thought process whereby food is just given out...endlessly...for generations.  I very very clearly stated that I understand why welfare exists.  I agree with welfare but if you work in these communities then you have to recognize that the welfare system is being severely abused.  The long-term consequences, though, will (and have) fallen on the shoulders of the abusers.

Just a small technical point regarding free meals, at my school and all schools like it (Title 1, high-need, persistently dangerous, yadda yadda...), every single child gets free food.  This is without applying, without supplying information, it is literally handed out.  What kind of lesson is this teaching children about school?  Is it a place for learning or is it a place you go for the day to eat and hang out with friends.  Picture what three meals per day at school looks like for a second.  It's either three trips to the cafeteria (which is a mess at every school) or it means a combination of eating in the classroom (

) and trips to the cafeteria.  All of this deters from the actual purpose of school.  Yes, kids need to be fed and focused in order to learn.  Yes, some kids need and deserve free food.  But, not only is this one example leading kids into a lifestyle of handouts, it is intruding upon educational time.  Instead of school being a very serious place of learning, it becomes a place of countless breaks for food, transitioning for the disbursement of food, and some teaching thrown in there.  Maybe I'm starting to sound like a bitter teacher in this paragraph, but this is the situation in our schools.

I appreciate the critique and, frankly, understand the two trains of thought on this issue.  We can agree to disagree though.

 

[mikeu]

Originally Posted by Mr DragonFly Jones

Originally Posted by rashi

What if the mayor was White?

..he'd still be right.

lol true if he was white i wouldn't seriously not take this offensive @ all i can't stand these hoodrats in my hood they ruin everything
  

 

[stay lurkin]

I do not disagree one bit.

 

[jhova718]

Originally Posted by vq35dett

I've been a teacher in a public school in Philly for a few years now and I deal with a lot of these kids everyday.  From my point of view, a large portion of the blame is on the kids and an even larger portion of the blame is on the parent(s).  The term kid or child here is used loosely seeing as quite a few of the minors arrested during these flash mobs were very close to 18 (some even older).  At some point, these kids have to start taking full responsibility for their actions, ESPECIALLY when parenting is transient or non-existent (not a popular sentiment).  It's not a good situation to be in where children are taking care of children, but it becomes a very tribal and evolutionary struggle where the strong survive.  Of course, many of our youths who are caught up in these situations think that being "strong" means being aggressive and violent to display prowess.  Unfortunately, this face-value approach to evolution simply doesn't work in modern society where true strength is most directly derived from intellectual ability and mental robustness.  This is hard to recognize without strong leadership (PARENTING) so children without this support often rely on the more convenient and socially acceptable behaviors such as acting out and being violent. 

Broadly, the flash mob issue in Philadelphia (and probably in Chicago and other urban areas) is an acute symptom of a very chronic illness with our youth.  The causes of this illness are very deeply rooted in societies and cultures and simply cannot be changed overnight.  I agree with Mayor Nutter's sentiment in that the actions, especially those that are repetitive, of a few bad apples allow the masses to form generalizations of a whole demographic.  Nutter is absolutely correct in saying that flash mobs, rude behavior, tattoos, sagging pants, etc. are triggers for people to look at African Americans a certain (negative) way.  Whether you like it or not, this perception is true.

In terms of trying to fix the flash mob problem right here, right now in the Summer of 2011 in Philadelphia, I think that Nutter is doing what he needs to do.  He is putting himself out in front of cameras and radio stations so that the kids in the city know that people are watching.  While there may not be an infinite amount of organized activities to participate in, there are things for kids to do.  Did everyone here really go to summer camp or play sports or have a job?  I didn't.  My dad never paid for me to go to camp or to play sports.  When I was too young to work, I just stayed at home or maybe went outside to play.  Why is that such a hard task these days?  I'm not sure and it's a tough question to answer.  Even tougher is the question of why boredom or frustration leads to such random acts of violence.  I'm from the school of thought where I think that this behavior should be treated similarly to PTSD (but that another discussion).

As a slight aside, and hopefully to stir up some positive discussion/brainstorming, I think that the overall trend of handouts needs to be ramped down.  Some kids are now growing up in a world where they get THREE full meals a day at school, free/subsidized housing, Accesscards (food stamps), and just a general lifestyle of handouts.  I understand the concept of welfare, I get why this great country has it.  Welfare needs to be a means to an end, not an end.  I honestly believe that generations of families who live off of welfare lead to societies where handouts are expected and all of a sudden, when something isn't easily attainable, excuses start flying.  Give an inch, take a mile.

Life's about getting real, getting down to business, and working hard to support your (hopefully positive) lifestyle.  Excuses don't mean anything.  Kick habits.  Stop fighting.  It's hard, trust me, I know.  What are the other options though? 

Post of the year.

 

[bboy1827]

The idea of social Darwinism has caused the problems we face today. Our strongest are our smartest, or the people most efficient at life, the ones who make their lives as easy as possible while enjoying perfect liberty and all the necessaries and conveniences life has to offer. You know the best way to do that? By %*@%*+% over a bunch of other people. Our strongest are our corporate elite, our lawyers, judges politicians etc., Instead of a tribal society, These parentless kids need what all people need, stability and structure. Restricting their freedoms wont help. More pressure on the parents,kids and city.

while it is true, sagging looks sloppy, but less tattoos, people typically clean up their act for interviews, court etc. of course there are a few people who look crazy in interviews, this is not the norm. Not to pull this card, but without someone to teach them, kids dont know what is appropriate to wear. To the way people look in their leisure time !%%% you judgmental hypocrites, its leisure n Im to do whatever I want.

People act high and mighty in their old age. I would like to go on record saying I did dumb stuff as a kid, because I was a kid. Alot of people have fantasies of their youth, they think they were awesome and that when they got in trouble it was devastating. Reality, kids are...well kids they do dumb $#!% for dumb reasons, not grounds to condemn or condone..

Do riots work? Im a kid in ks my mom, my friends and I are talking about the working conditions in Philly ;the school system, their politics etc. you be the judge of whether they are effective.

Life is about living. Whats the point of,grinding if you never get to kickflip over a chick, drink some brews smoke a little bud n enjoi your youth/life

 

[cedric ceballos 1995 lakers]

it is what it is. anyone who makes excuses for these kids is just as bad as they are.

 

[-Red-]

Originally Posted by vq35dett

As a society, to what lengths must we go to "ensure" that our young people grow up with everything they need to reach their full potential?  What needs are not being met?  Are we still talking about a lack of summer activities?  This is a big time cop out.  Are we talking about food?  Not in Philadelphia  (maybe here...http://www.cnn.com/2011/H...g.ahmed.gupta/index.html ).  Are we talking about housing?  Are we talking about parks?  Are we talking about schools?  The school I work at is very well equipped with the latest technology and a surplus of supplies.  We also had a student:teacher ratio of roughly 14:1.  What does society need to do?  The huge issue is parenting.  Bad parenting (children raising children, one parent households, etc.) is becoming a generational problem in these communities.  Has this issue spawned due to a lack of societal assistance?  Is this a birth control issue?  There would be no way that any politician would be able to continue his/her career if they started to address issues of true birth control and bad parenting.   

We must go to WHATEVER LENGTHS ARE NECESSARY to ensure that our young people grow up with everything they need to reach their full potential.

What needs are not being met you ask?  Damn near all of them for a lot of young people

Many youth from marginalized communities are lacking almost everything listed in Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs other than the most basic of Physiological Needs (and even then often food and shelter may be in question).

How are our young people supposed to reach Self-Actualization when they are missing most of their more basic needs, especially Safety and Esteem?

Take a look at this report that shows the United States lack of investment in our young people compared to other "first-world" countries: http://argative.net/combined.pdf.

Contrary to your and many others' severely misguided beliefs, everything does not simply boil down to "bad parenting."

By the way, I'm not sure if you think your school is indicative of urban school in this country or not but I can assure you it is NOT.

Originally Posted by vq35dett

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a good number of my students with a 3.0 GPA and an SAT score around the 60th percentile or higher have a legitimate shot at a 4 year college.  Funding is always available for those who need it (merit, need, private, etc).  I've seen it happen time and time again.  Unfortunately, when you're in school and decide to go out of your way to get yourself kicked out of school then there's no way you can get grades.  What can society do about this?  Force students, regardless of behavior, to sit in a classroom?  Do we need better teachers?  Probably, but everyone in every district could use better teachers.  Can you clarify what factors you are talking about, maybe I am missing something.

Like I said above, I don't know what kind of school you work in but it doesn't sound that rough to me.  Two years ago I worked in a Chicago high school in which the senior class of about 120 students had literally 6 students with 3.0 GPA's or higher and 1 student score a 20 on the ACT (the school average was 14).

And as for students "going out of their way to get kicked out" I'm completely clueless to what you're referring.  I do know that Black students are referred, suspended, expelled, and arrested at much higher rates than their white counterparts FOR THE SAME OFFENSES.  Also, inner-city schools with high populations of Black and Latino students are much more likely to have destructive "zero-tolerance" policies.

Restorative justice program are a tangible alternative to reducing the number of suspensions, expulsions, and in-school arrests, and eventually referrals.  Through the use of Peace Circles and a Peer Jury (as well as mentoring, college and career readiness, etc.) we were able to reduce referrals by 16%, suspensions by 40%, expulsions by 67%, and in-school arrests by 82% over a three-year period at the high school I described above.  Also in that time the graduation rate more than doubled from 32% to 66%.

Originally Posted by vq35dett

What is the absolute bottom line though?  As a human being, what course of action can you take if the deck is stacked against you?  Do you wait for help from society or do you try to persevere?  It's not supposed to be easy and, perhaps unfortunately, using the age old "life isn't fair" statement may be the most humbling yet appropriate line to describe the circumstances of certain people.

You definitely try to persevere, no question.  But you also don't simply accept the %+#@%@ up circumstances that you were presented with by simply saying "life isn't fair."  That's some bull #$%$ people in power came up with to make the people at the bottom complacent.  After the %+#@%@ up hand they've been dealt, do you really think that these young people need to be further humbled??

Originally Posted by vq35dett

If you enjoy sports, football camps are already up and running.  I am personally involved in a youth baseball league where turnout is scarce (interest in baseball in urban areas has been horrible).

If you enjoy the arts, the Mural Arts program in Philadelphia is huge.

If you want to work, the guidance counselor at my school was literally giving out jobs to students (and still had more forms).  Our neighboring charter HS was doing the same.  I'd say that less than 10% of my students actually started work though.  Who's fault is this?

Just a few examples.  The whole nation is hurting right now.  Lots of things are being cut.  The strong will survive, what you think "strong" means will guide your life.

So you just names three things.  Great.  As for the job piece, once again, I don't know what kind of school this is but I do work on youth employment and if there's one thing that every teenager in the ghetto wants, it's a JOB.  I don't know if you all didn't get the word out or what but every single young person or youth worker I know personally or professionally from St. Louis to Chicago to Minneapolis says the same thing.  Our youth employment programs fill up immediately.  If I had the jobs to provide, I could literally put thousands of young people who want a job to work within a month.  Literally.

So maybe it's the counselor's fault.  As for the baseball, if young people don't like baseball and aren't participating, why not ask them what they would prefer and provide activities that they are interested in?  That's not meant as a personal attack on you, I think it's great that you're doing something.

Originally Posted by vq35dett

The whole PTSD thing is an issue but, as I mentioned, I didn't want to get into a discussion about a huge problem that is very much going untreated.  My thesis work is on treating school violence as a public health issue and is somewhat focused on this concept of PTSD.  In terms of boredom or frustration, yes, I think that this is one of the last triggers that cause these kids to go out to South St. or CC to cause problems.  What leads to this boredom is a lack of involvement.  What leads to frustration is a deeper issue.  Again, looking at the end result, however, can we let kids off the hook because this boredom, frustration, or even anger is causing them to act out (REGARDLESS of the source of these feelings)?  We'll never get anywhere if we accept these excuses.

It's not about "letting kids off the hook," it's about addressing the issues underlying young people's sense of marginalization, helplessness, hopelessness, worthlessness, lack of self efficacy, lack of social capital, etc.

When a young person does something, they should be held accountable just as anyone should for anything they do.  But that is not addressing the root of the issues so the dynamics remain in place for these destructive and self-destructive behaviors to be repeated by them and others.

Originally Posted by vq35dett

Now you're starting to lose your gusto here a little bit.  I never stated that I don't want hungry kids to eat.  I said that the program needs to be ramped down.  Do I have a problem with kids getting free food if they need it?  Absolutely not.  Do I have a problem when kids come to school with nice clothes, parents are driving nice cars, and then they get free food?  YES.  Moreover, I have a huge issue with kids developing a thought process whereby food is just given out...endlessly...for generations.  I very very clearly stated that I understand why welfare exists.  I agree with welfare but if you work in these communities then you have to recognize that the welfare system is being severely abused.  The long-term consequences, though, will (and have) fallen on the shoulders of the abusers.

Just a small technical point regarding free meals, at my school and all schools like it (Title 1, high-need, persistently dangerous, yadda yadda...), every single child gets free food.  This is without applying, without supplying information, it is literally handed out.  What kind of lesson is this teaching children about school?  Is it a place for learning or is it a place you go for the day to eat and hang out with friends.  Picture what three meals per day at school looks like for a second.  It's either three trips to the cafeteria (which is a mess at every school) or it means a combination of eating in the classroom (

) and trips to the cafeteria.  All of this deters from the actual purpose of school.  Yes, kids need to be fed and focused in order to learn.  Yes, some kids need and deserve free food.  But, not only is this one example leading kids into a lifestyle of handouts, it is intruding upon educational time.  Instead of school being a very serious place of learning, it becomes a place of countless breaks for food, transitioning for the disbursement of food, and some teaching thrown in there.  Maybe I'm starting to sound like a bitter teacher in this paragraph, but this is the situation in our schools.

So you don't think that the U.S. should try to ensure that all children eat three meals a day?  And I live and work in the ghetto and I don't recognize that "the welfare system is being severely abused."  People always make that claim with no concrete evidence to back it up.  Do some people who receive government benefits make poor financial decisions?  Sure, but so do the vast majority of Americans.  I would much prefer a society in which people were ensured of living wage employment rather than "government benefits."

As for your last paragraph, the reason that all students in those schools get free lunch is because they don't want to stigmatize the few students who may be financially better off than the rest of their classmates.  That doesn't teach them any "lesson" about school.  Of course they should eat at school, they're there for most of the day.  I really wouldn't characterize breakfast before classes start, lunch in the middle of the day and a snack after school as "countless breaks for food."

Originally Posted by Cedric Ceballos 1995 Lakers

it is what it is. anyone who makes excuses for these kids is just as bad as they are.

It has nothing to do with excuses.  It's about trying to analyze and address the root causes of the issues...

 

[trunks206]

vq35dett: is completely spot on. Well done sir.  I just dont see how posters can make excuses for kids choosing to act like fools just because.

 

[vq35dett]

red mpls wrote:
 
We must go to WHATEVER LENGTHS ARE NECESSARY to ensure that our young people grow up with everything they need to reach their full potential.

So what should we do?  You keep criticizing what I'm saying but you don't offer any real solutions...

By the way, I'm not sure if you think your school is indicative of urban school in this country or not but I can assure you it is NOT.

Like I said above, I don't know what kind of school you work in but it doesn't sound that rough to me.  Two years ago I worked in a Chicago high school in which the senior class of about 120 students had literally 6 students with 3.0 GPA's or higher and 1 student score a 20 on the ACT (the school average was 14).

I work at one of 19 persistently dangerous schools in the state of Pennsylvania.  My school is located in South Philadelphia and has been so bad that the entire staff was laid off and the school was given over to a charter company for the coming year.  As recently as last year, we made it on the national news for racial violence issues.  Maybe my school isn't indicative of urban schools in this country, but it is pretty awful.

And as for students "going out of their way to get kicked out" I'm completely clueless to what you're referring.  I do know that Black students are referred, suspended, expelled, and arrested at much higher rates than their white counterparts FOR THE SAME OFFENSES.  Also, inner-city schools with high populations of Black and Latino students are much more likely to have destructive "zero-tolerance" policies.

Restorative justice program are a tangible alternative to reducing the number of suspensions, expulsions, and in-school arrests, and eventually referrals.  Through the use of Peace Circles and a Peer Jury (as well as mentoring, college and career readiness, etc.) we were able to reduce referrals by 16%, suspensions by 40%, expulsions by 67%, and in-school arrests by 82% over a three-year period at the high school I described above.  Also in that time the graduation rate more than doubled from 32% to 66%.

Ehh good numbers/data, but I guess I can't base too much on a case study.  Are these interventions scalable and sustainable?  These are the main issues with ed reform. 

You definitely try to persevere, no question.  But you also don't simply accept the %+#@%@ up circumstances that you were presented with by simply saying "life isn't fair."  That's some bull #$%$ people in power came up with to make the people at the bottom complacent.  After the %+#@%@ up hand they've been dealt, do you really think that these young people need to be further humbled??

The end result is that you persevere though right?  There's nothing else you can do other than educate yourself and try to change the situation for future generations.  Complaining doesn't help many situations.

So you just names three things.  Great.  As for the job piece, once again, I don't know what kind of school this is but I do work on youth employment and if there's one thing that every teenager in the ghetto wants, it's a JOB.  I don't know if you all didn't get the word out or what but every single young person or youth worker I know personally or professionally from St. Louis to Chicago to Minneapolis says the same thing.  Our youth employment programs fill up immediately.  If I had the jobs to provide, I could literally put thousands of young people who want a job to work within a month.  Literally.

Again, I VERY clearly stated that I just gave a few examples.  Regarding jobs, I guess it's faulty logic to base it off of a case study (my school) but it is fair to point out that permission slips were handed out and simply not returned.  There's not much else that we (teachers, staff, counselors) can do.

So maybe it's the counselor's fault.  As for the baseball, if young people don't like baseball and aren't participating, why not ask them what they would prefer and provide activities that they are interested in?  That's not meant as a personal attack on you, I think it's great that you're doing something.

It's not about "letting kids off the hook," it's about addressing the issues underlying young people's sense of marginalization, helplessness, hopelessness, worthlessness, lack of self efficacy, lack of social capital, etc.

When a young person does something, they should be held accountable just as anyone should for anything they do.  But that is not addressing the root of the issues so the dynamics remain in place for these destructive and self-destructive behaviors to be repeated by them and others.

You keep mentioning this but what kind of interventions do you have in mind.  If not tough love, then what else?

So you don't think that the U.S. should try to ensure that all children eat three meals a day?  And I live and work in the ghetto and I don't recognize that "the welfare system is being severely abused."  People always make that claim with no concrete evidence to back it up.  Do some people who receive government benefits make poor financial decisions?  Sure, but so do the vast majority of Americans.  I would much prefer a society in which people were ensured of living wage employment rather than "government benefits."

I never said that we shouldn't try to ensure that everyone has three meals a day.  This is the second time you've tried to accuse me of saying that I don't think that kids should eat(

).  There is a lively black market for food stamps in my neighborhood.  There are many families who live outside of the city who claim households in housing developments just to receive benefits.  This is a rather open activity here.

As for your last paragraph, the reason that all students in those schools get free lunch is because they don't want to stigmatize the few students who may be financially better off than the rest of their classmates.  That doesn't teach them any "lesson" about school.  Of course they should eat at school, they're there for most of the day.  I really wouldn't characterize breakfast before classes start, lunch in the middle of the day and a snack after school as "countless breaks for food."

Again, maybe a case study of Philly, but in my school and schools I know of in the city, breakfast is served during 1st period.  The reason for this is that this way the schools can claim 100% of the students eat breakfast (counts towards AYP).  When breakfast was served before school started, very few students would actually show up to eat.  The bottom line here is that transitioning between food (very leisure) and instruction is probably the most difficult transition for teachers to make.  This is especially difficult since every teacher has a no eating policy in class and then you start serving sausage/egg/cheese muffins (delicious) and orange juice every morning.

Originally Posted by Cedric Ceballos 1995 Lakers

it is what it is. anyone who makes excuses for these kids is just as bad as they are.

It has nothing to do with excuses.  It's about trying to analyze and address the root causes of the issues...

So let's analyze and address the root causes.  What is the time outlook on something like this?  Surely on the order of generations.

 

[-Red-]

Originally Posted by vq35dett

So what should we do?  You keep criticizing what I'm saying but you don't offer any real solutions...

REAL solutions to real issues are not as simple as the two-word catchphrases ("personal responsibility," "better parenting," "tough love," "life isn't fair," etc.) you and millions of others like to employ as if they will effectively address issues that are the direct byproducts of much larger structural and institutional forces.

If you are asking me for national policy recommendations or "solutions," I would start with ensuring the availability of living wage employment for all adults as well as sufficient employment opportunities for young people.  If you look at the "worst" or "most violent" or "most dangerous" cities in this country, their declines almost directly coincide with their deindustrialization and the loss of millions of manufacturing jobs to outsourcing.  These jobs, which no longer exist in this country, allowed high school graduates in inner-city Black communities (as well as Latino and white neighborhoods) to attain living wage employment through which they could buy a home and a car, support a family, etc.  The loss of these jobs left a tremendous void in these cities which has not been filled to this day and has left entire cities like St. Louis, Detroit, Cleveland, Gary, Flint, as well as large portions of cities like Chicago, Philadelphia, Milwaukee, and Baltimore economically crippled and with tragically high rates of unemployment.  Do you think it's a coincidence that these once-great manufacturing hubs and thriving metropolises are now the absolute worst cities in the nation by almost every measure?  Or is it just that more people decided to stop parenting and stop taking "personal responsibility" in these particular cities?

Originally Posted by vq35dett

I work at one of 19 persistently dangerous schools in the state of Pennsylvania.  My school is located in South Philadelphia and has been so bad that the entire staff was laid off and the school was given over to a charter company for the coming year.  As recently as last year, we made it on the national news for racial violence issues.  Maybe my school isn't indicative of urban schools in this country, but it is pretty awful.

Nothing you stated is outside the norm for any of (literally) dozens of high schools on the Southside and Westside of Chicago or any other ghettos in any city in this country for that matter.  The fact that you all have a 14:1 student to teacher ratio and state of the art technology and an overflow of resources means that you all are working with a hell of a lot more than 95 percent of these other schools.

Originally Posted by vq35dett

Ehh good numbers/data, but I guess I can't base too much on a case study.  Are these interventions scalable and sustainable?  These are the main issues with ed reform. 

I'm sure it could given the proper buy-in, resources, and staffing.

Originally Posted by vq35dett

The end result is that you persevere though right?  There's nothing else you can do other than educate yourself and try to change the situation for future generations.  Complaining doesn't help many situations.

The end result is that the young people persevere AS WELL AS gain an understanding of why their life circumstances are the way they are AND attempt to change those circumstances at all levels (self, family, community, city, state, country, world).  It has nothing to do with complaining.  It has everything to do with attempting to understand the forces that have made the world what it is and speaking out, education others, and organizing around making the world a better place for everyone, especially those most marginalized among us.

Originally Posted by vq35dett

Again, I VERY clearly stated that I just gave a few examples.  Regarding jobs, I guess it's faulty logic to base it off of a case study (my school) but it is fair to point out that permission slips were handed out and simply not returned.  There's not much else that we (teachers, staff, counselors) can do.

Just so I understand what you're saying took place: Students were given permission slips and upon their return they would be granted a job.  And 90 percent of students failed to return them.  Is that correct?

Also

at the assertion that there was "not much else" that you could do to encourage participation other than hand students a form.

Originally Posted by vq35dett

You keep mentioning this but what kind of interventions do you have in mind.  If not tough love, then what else?

PREVENTION.

Originally Posted by vq35dett

I never said that we shouldn't try to ensure that everyone has three meals a day.  This is the second time you've tried to accuse me of saying that I don't think that kids should eat(

).  There is a lively black market for food stamps in my neighborhood.  There are many families who live outside of the city who claim households in housing developments just to receive benefits.  This is a rather open activity here.

You keep reiterating that you have such a big problem with kids receiving free meals yet you offer no alternative or potential solution.  And your anecdotes once again reinforce my assertion that no one can produce hard data on the abuse of government benefits.  You don't know how many people receive benefits who participate in the activities you listed and you have even less of an idea the number of people who receive benefits that don't because.

Originally Posted by vq35dett

Again, maybe a case study of Philly, but in my school and schools I know of in the city, breakfast is served during 1st period.  The reason for this is that this way the schools can claim 100% of the students eat breakfast (counts towards AYP).  When breakfast was served before school started, very few students would actually show up to eat.  The bottom line here is that transitioning between food (very leisure) and instruction is probably the most difficult transition for teachers to make.  This is especially difficult since every teacher has a no eating policy in class and then you start serving sausage/egg/cheese muffins (delicious) and orange juice every morning.

So your solution would be... what?  Or do you just want to complain?

Originally Posted by vq35dett

So let's analyze and address the root causes.  What is the time outlook on something like this?  Surely on the order of generations.

Not necessarily.  However, in your first post in here you accused young people of just doing what's "easy" yet here you are shying away from a true analysis of the issues and any attempts to address them.  Instead just employ "tough love" and blame parents because it's more convenient and offers an "immediate solution."  And you're the teacher.  Come on, man.

 

[vq35dett]

Agree to disagree. Clearly different opinions and perspectives on this situation.