Doctors are the #1 Cause of Death in the United States

[typerpinoy]

if were thinking idealistically though we would eliminate all disease and the need for doctors all together

 

[wr]

if were thinking idealistically though we would eliminate all disease and the need for doctors all together

Not to get all hippy and all, but I think that's the point.

Death, disease, war, hunger are sort of like necessary evils in a world like this. They will never be stopped because they are the actual driving mechanisms for a functioning society.
Honeslty, I think we are no less barbaric than the depictions of the societies that had to cut out peoples hearts as offerings for prosperity. Just do it in a more coveted and modern way.

 

[futuremd]

Rashi? 

 

[longstroke]

This thread rocks. Please allow me to share my very recent story about my doctor.

I must say, I have had a wonderful relationship with my GP for many years. He's been my grandmother's physician as well, who just recently turned 90 years old. 

So a few weeks ago, I'd been experiencing some bad gas pains, and then some serious heartburn, serious enough to think that I was having a heart attack. The pressure that was building up in my chest was simply ridiculous. Afraid that something was seriously wrong, I called my Doc, and he then told me to come in. As soon as he saw me, he began laughing.

Oh, you thought you were dying, didn't you!  

He then ushers me into his office.

So he asks me what I'm feeling, and I explain. He takes my blood pressure, which was elevated, but understandably so. He listens to my heart and lungs, then gives me the cup to pee in.

All the while, he was laughing.

Now, I know this cat and he only laughs like that with me when he already knows the answer. There was a time when I was teen that I thought that I got burned by this chick, and once I pulled my pants down, he even laughed then, making me laugh, then immediately telling me to change my laundry detergent.

We, have a relationship of sorts.

So with each test, he explains to me what he is looking or listening for. He also tells me what I should look for, if there is really any trouble or cause for concern. We also talk about how to prevent things from happening. He says, and I quote, outside of congenital issues, a human being if he practices good hygiene, both mental and physical, getting enough rest, then practicing proper eating habits, exercising regularly, should be able to live a good, healthy, productive life. 

So the first thing he asked me, in regard to my most recent issues, is if I am doing anything differently, or if I have added anything new to my diet.

I hadn't added anything new eating wise, but after thinking for a minute, I was using some new mouthwash and tooth paste.

He immediately started laughing again, then telling me that many people are suffering from acid reflux, due to the peroxides and bleaching agents that are now being used in mouthwashes and toothpastes.

Since I brush and rinse before going to bed, that is when the attacks got really bad.

He then filled a script for some stuff like Prilosec, then told me to find a toothpaste without Peroxide or any bleaching agents, then explained to me how those agents effect the upper digestive tract. I could only use salt water for rinsing and gargling.

Before he sent me on my way, he laughed again. 

He called me by my name, then asked, don't you think that I know when people are about to die? I can see it. One thing you don't want to do when you don't feel well, is to panic.

I then let out the biggest fart ever, and all the gas and chest pain ceased immediately. I kid you not.

I love my doctor, and I wish that everyone had one like him.

Bedside manner is of the utmost importance.

 

[hankmoody]

Name a field of study or graduate program that doesn't involve intense memorization. Law? Business? Humanities? Seminary? Dance? Theater? The cello? 

Intense memorization is an essential part of the accumulation of any kind of expertise, knowledge or trade.

 

[whywesteppin]

Would be a better story if your fart kills him. As he lay gasping his final breath on the floor, you chuckle and say, "bet you didn't see that one coming!"

 

[longstroke]

Would be a better story if your fart kills him. As he lay gasping his final breath on the floor, you chuckle and say, "bet you didn't see that one coming!"

Naw, but he did ask me if I crapped my pants!

 

[whywesteppin]

Would be a better story if your fart kills him. As he lay gasping his final breath on the floor, you chuckle and say, "bet you didn't see that one coming!"

Naw, but he did ask me if I crapped my pants!

He does sound like a good doctor and a good man.

 

[pleasurephd]

if were thinking idealistically though we would eliminate all disease and the need for doctors all together

Working on it

I definitely didn't say it's all memorization. I said it's "basically a ton", by which I meant that at its core its memorization but it requires other skills as well. Now, if you wan to convince me that it's not actually mainly memorization, you'll have to give me a better example than the one you gave me, which is CLEARLY something that you can pretty easily memorize and then apply to different situations using other memorized material and some common sense. Oh, and all the articles written regarding memorization in med school or articles by doctors criticizing the way med school relies so much on memorization aren't exactly helping either.
As for why med students should at least be familiar with things outside of their field, it's because you can't understand or hope to cure the human body if you're looking at it from only one perspective. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's a lot of research coming out that indicates that ADHD might be caused by (in addition to, of course, genetics) certain environmental factors. For years, ADHD was simply treated with medications, and that approach has proved to be a failure. Approaching the problem with a broader perspective might have avoided that failure.
I'm not too familiar with electricians (although a quick google search shows that many electricians also deal with fridges...), but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that, with so many interdisciplinary fields being created recently, there must be a good reason for doing so. It takes a psychologist to explain why a subject in an experiment being run by the Economics department isn't behaving in a "rational" manner.

the reason most doctors don't strive to improve upon the recipe is because a lot of us are not into research and development. do you know how tedious it is to get new drugs or surgical techniques or other therapies approved? it's not easy at all. and any deviation from the standard of care is grounds for litigation and potential loss of license

These are the types of things which individuals in my field do. This is what we specialize in and what we are here for, innovation of new therapies. Leave it to us to try and translate our research into clinical application for MDs to use. We are getting better at bridging the gap.

There are MDs which do, do both. My old PI was an MD/PhD and he was chair of his dept., ran a very large lab, and he was also chief of hem/onc. But, those are rare cases, I think. My main point though is that PhDs in biomedical sciences are the ones which are trying to push forth and innovate new treatments and cure, which includes everything from chemical drugs down to making their subjects run, etc...

The problem is we dedicate this our time to this researching and novel innovation, and we have the ability to study and incorporate many unique aspects into our mode of treatment, but it's a whole different story when thinking about translating these into the clinic, especially when they are things like asking a patient to run for example. An MD treating people with current/conventional therapies DOES NOT have the luxury that we have. If our therapy fails it's okay, if there's does then you have people like Pig Love posting articles like the one he did. We can also completely, for the most part, control our subjects and they can not do this with their patients. So taking that into consideration, it's much harder unfortunately for MDs to PRESCRIBE outside the box, I'm sure MANY of them do THINK outside the box, but when it comes to actually dealing with patients (tons of them daily) and trying to give them something to quickly make them better, and which is easy to follow (unlike a diet plan or a exercise regimen) I would imagine it to be much much much more difficult.

It's not their fault so much as the system and OUR societies views on health and fitness.

Can't blame the doc for sitting on your couch, eating fried chicken all day, and then getting heart disease, diabetes and bunch of other complications.

Lastly, everyone should watch this TED talk. It highlights both sides of the argument in a good light, I think, but it's sad to think that this might never be the way we think in the US, and it's not the docs faults. I'm sure they wish they could prescribe a diet and exercise plan.

 

[typerpinoy]

God forbid a doctor does think outside the box and prescribe a medicine for an off label use. He's met with resistance from all angles, most notably the patient who is pissed that it costs $400/week and insurance won't cover it. Who is the one that gets the blame there? Somehow it's always the doctors fault

 

[hodog16]

Just scanned through the thread. Pretty entertaining from both sides.

On one hand you have the absolute paranoia of the general population towards medicine and on the other the unbridled enthusiasm of the younger members of the medical community to protect it.

 

[relli45]

Doctors get by because of there degrees. I watched my Gpops battle leukemia day in and day out for a year. I lived at the hospital with him for a month at a time, and I've never heard "I don't know", said in some many different forms so many damn times in my life. When they say people died from the complications of cancer that usually means the treatment killed them. The doctor gave him something to bust his cells in his bone marrow and it shut his kidneys down and he was dead in three days

 

[typerpinoy]

no offense but your grandfather had leukemia. the choices were either do nothing and die from some miserable opportunistic infection or give something a shot that may or may not buy a little more time

 

[futuremd]

Doctors get by because of there degrees. I watched my Gpops battle leukemia day in and day out for a year. I lived at the hospital with him for a month at a time, and I've never heard "I don't know", said in some many different forms so many damn times in my life. When they say people died from the complications of cancer that usually means the treatment killed them. The doctor gave him something to bust his cells in his bone marrow and it shut his kidneys down and he was dead in three days

What do you expect them to do? 

Sometimes "I don't know" IS the only answer. Do you want to be lied to? 

Medicine and therefore science only knows so much. Its only learning so quickly. 

They know enough to keep him alive as long as he lived in the first place. 

Also bone marrow procedures are REALLY tricky. They don't always work. 

This is what I don't get. Do you think they weren't trying? Do you think you know something they dont? Do you think they weren't trying to keep your "Gpops" alive? 

I understand your frustration, but damn what is your expectation here? Your "Gpop" was old AND had Leukemia. Would you trust him to live longer without the intervention? 

On top of that, saying "well I didn't need the doctor" doesn't mean anything. More power to you. Sometimes stats are all Drs have to refer to when making predictions. Every set of statistics has data points that fall outside of the boundaries. That doesn't change our knowledge of how things work systemically nor does it hinder the progress made thus far in treatment. 

I'm sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience. 

 

[pleasurephd]

Doctors get by because of there degrees. I watched my Gpops battle leukemia day in and day out for a year. I lived at the hospital with him for a month at a time, and I've never heard "I don't know", said in some many different forms so many damn times in my life. When they say people died from the complications of cancer that usually means the treatment killed them. The doctor gave him something to bust his cells in his bone marrow and it shut his kidneys down and he was dead in three days

Actually, when they say people died from the complications of cancer, it does not mean that the treatment killed them. For the most part it means that people die from secondary effects from having cancer and being weaker. The distinction is that the tumor growth or malignant cells themselves aren't the direct cause of death.

And, yes of course the treatment would bust his cells in his bone marrow. That's where your hematopoietic stem cells reside, which give rise to all of your blood cells, including your white blood cells (leukocytes), hence the term "leukemia."

There is an inherent risk when doing harsh chemo- or radiation therapy to kill off the malignant cells which are 'causing' the leukemia. Especially as an old man, it will be very harsh on your body. Whether he died from other complications secondary to the disease (including kidney failure) or from the actual treatment, would you rather him not have took a chance at being cured and just stayed in the hospital suffering, finally succumbing to the "complications of the disease?"

I'm sorry though, I lost my Grandfather to lung cancer, but you can't blame the doc for trying to save his life with the only tools he had.

 

[futuremd]

Just scanned through the thread. Pretty entertaining from both sides.

On one hand you have the absolute paranoia of the general population towards medicine and on the other the unbridled enthusiasm of the younger members of the medical community to protect it.

I wouldn't say people are trying to "protect" it as much as they are trying to explain it.

Doctors (decent ones at least) are competent enough to know the criticisms people have about their profession. Depending on where they work, they hear it all the time. From dealing with administrators to belligerent patients to their overworked co-workers...all while trying to maintain a standard of quality and adequate care. Its tough. 

Theres a lot of misinformation being spread and there is are quite a few hardline opinions being taken by those who have had negative experiences.

We have one guy who thinks Doc's didn't want to save his already super sick and super old grandfather. We have another guy who got a UTI but thinks the medicine will kill him. We have another guy who keeps posting articles saying how doctors really aren't doctors. 

I think medicine is hard to change radically because of the stakes involved. The sheer consistency of it all is what attracts many to the field, besides those obvious cases where you might experience something completely novel. In any case, Dr's face many more risks than anyone here is taking credit for. 

I don't think anyone is opposed to changing things for the better. But some of the criticism taking place is ENTIRELY counterproductive.

 

[typerpinoy]

im not sure what there is to protect. part of the reason that many people get into medicine is job security.

 

[il prescelto]

Name a field of study or graduate program that doesn't involve intense memorization. Law? Business? Humanities? Seminary? Dance? Theater? The cello? 

Intense memorization is an essential part of the accumulation of any kind of expertise, knowledge or trade.

The cello, since you decided to name it.

But I agree, most fields do require memorization. It's just that fields like business, dance, theater, and others also require innovation, creativity, etc...or at least I thought so. It seems like what I was perceiving as a lack of these qualities in the field may really just be due to other factors, I guess.

 

[snaggykicks]

All of it cant be a lie

 

[offbad]

Name a field of study or graduate program that doesn't involve intense memorization. Law? Business? Humanities? Seminary? Dance? Theater? The cello? 

Intense memorization is an essential part of the accumulation of any kind of expertise, knowledge or trade.

The cello, since you decided to name it.

not sure if srs.

 

[so nyuh shi dae]

Studies prove that. Wolff's Law tells use that weight bearing exercises can reverse osteoporosis, so why aren't more orthos referring out to physical therapists?

i'm pretty sure there are more factors that contribute to osteoporosis than just a lack of loading on the bone.

 

[typerpinoy]

there are plenty. age, being white, lack of calcium and vitamin d intake, lack of sun exposure, hyperparathyroidism.

 

[hodog16]

I wouldn't say people are trying to "protect" it as much as they are trying to explain it.

Doctors (decent ones at least) are competent enough to know the criticisms people have about their profession. Depending on where they work, they hear it all the time. From dealing with administrators to belligerent patients to their overworked co-workers...all while trying to maintain a standard of quality and adequate care. Its tough. 

Theres a lot of misinformation being spread and there is are quite a few hardline opinions being taken by those who have had negative experiences.

We have one guy who thinks Doc's didn't want to save his already super sick and super old grandfather. We have another guy who got a UTI but thinks the medicine will kill him. We have another guy who keeps posting articles saying how doctors really aren't doctors. 

I think medicine is hard to change radically because of the stakes involved. The sheer consistency of it all is what attracts many to the field, besides those obvious cases where you might experience something completely novel. In any case, Dr's face many more risks than anyone here is taking credit for. 

I don't think anyone is opposed to changing things for the better. But some of the criticism taking place is ENTIRELY counterproductive.

Based on your username and idealistic nature, you must be a 1st year med student or something.

 

[utvol23]

Hey Hodog nice to make an appearance.

I think you were doing fellowships last time i saw you in a thread.

 

[wr]