ESPN Page 2: Leave the scowl at home, Kobe - By Tim Keown
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by outacontrol music,
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^^ tmoney85, your avy is fake/an act
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Plays a part?
You don't really believe this do you? You can't just be a fan of the game? A fan of an athlete because of his skills?
Kobe isn't my favorite nor is he my least favorite... i'm just a fan because of how he plays on the court.
Same with Boxing, NFL, UFC, Actors, Artists... i'm a fan of many athletes/entertainers... but I don't know shizzz about their life.
pretty toney
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Probably because....we don't know them perhaps?
I know (insert professional athlete here) as just that....an ATHLETE. I don't converse and interact with this person myself in order to formulate anopinion about how I feel about anything he does that doesn't involves playing basketball.
I don't go around forming opinions about cashiers, mailmen, garbagemen, sales associates, etc. that doesn't relate to anything but their jobresponsibilities. Perhaps it's part of the gift and curse of being a celebrity/professional athlete because you're life is put on front street for theworld's view as opposed to any of the people in the professions I just named...but personally, the same theory still applies. If a person says theydon't like Kobe because they don't like his style of play...they think he's a ballhog...they think he's an overrated defender...he gambles toomuch...bad shot selection...I can't argue with that. I can have a different opinion...but I have no problems with it because it's pertaining to whatthese guys do for a living and how we know them...playing basketball. When a person starts trying to decipher his personality, question his mannerisms, andhave well drawn opinions about his personal life...that's just OD to me. It's almost like your looking for these athletes as some sort of role modelsto fill some sort of void in your lives.
I grew up in similar conditions as Allen Iverson. Single mother...rough areas at times...moved around alot during my early stages...had a brief period tryingto follow the wrong individuals. He's been my favorite player (He and Kobe are 1a and 1b to me) since his freshman year of Georgetown...and I can honestlysay his image had NOTHING to do with this. I've never looked at Iverson and I said "I think this guy is a cool dude". If you ask me why I likeAllen Iverson I'll tell you because he's one of the most athletically gifted individuals the sport has seen and I've always marveled at his abilityto score at will with such speed and agility, yet being much smaller than the average sized athlete in the professional ranks. I'm not going to tell yousomething like "He keeps it real, he came from the hood like me, he never changed, he says what he wants, etc."...and that's because Icouldn't care less. Allen Iverson is a man just like myself...and I don't know him. I can't have a legit opinion about the guy if I don't knowhim.
I don't know being a fan of a professional athlete meant that you had to follow every facet of their lives and decipher their mannerisms and off the courtactivity.
I've always kept athletes/entertainers in that regard...
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Vince Carter is another player that strikes me like this. I don't think since perhaps the 2000-2001 season have I seen dude smile. He always looks soannoyed/angry, even after hitting a game winner. One of the reasons I don't like him that much anymore. Come on Vince, you're earning $$$$$$$$ playingbasketball.
Goodness knows what he'd look like if he had to work a dead-end job and was poor.
Goodness knows what he'd look like if he had to work a dead-end job and was poor.
pretty toney
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/\ and here's my problem with that. You're using the fact that you haven't seen him as smile as a reason why you don't like him...and you haveno idea what's going on in Vince's personal life. There could be a reason why he doesn't smile. Money isn't everything. If it was wewouldn't see so many athletes/entertainers/higher ups in the corporate industry breakdown and go crazy.
That thought process just doesn't make sense to me...it's like what exactly are you looking for these dudes to provide for you other thanentertainment?
That thought process just doesn't make sense to me...it's like what exactly are you looking for these dudes to provide for you other thanentertainment?
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where is the logic in that? stay on topic. that has nothing to do with the other
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Bill Simmons did not write the initial article posted but he has been mentioned in this thread alot andinterestingly he did write something about Lebron yesterday. I'm just posting it to show the contrast in how they are perceived by the media.
http://sports.espn.go.com...age=simmons/090513/part3
http://sports.espn.go.com...age=simmons/090513/part3
[h3]SIMMONS[/h3]
Your comparison of my writing to Doug Moe's Nuggets hurts since they never made the NBA Finals. You could have compared me to the '85 Lakers; they averaged 126.5 points in 19 playoff games and won the title. Instead, you compared me to a franchise that tried to contend by playing Kiki Vandeweghe and Alex English together when they were the two worst defensive forwards not just in the league but ever in the history of mankind, and I'm including women, children and the four golden retrievers who played Bud in "Air Bud 2." So that hurts. Anyway, I tackled the All-Time Black/White Finals on Page 1,448 of my book in the second footnote. You haven't gotten there yet. Just know that I refuse to count foreigners as white guys, and you can't make me.
Let's wrap things up by tackling LeBron James. As the 2009 postseason rolls on, the King has become its most compelling story, not just because of his insane numbers, that Jordan-like hunger in his eyes, even the fact that he's still on cruise control to some degree. (Note: I would compare him to Nigel Tufnel's amp. He alternated between "9" and "10" in the regular season, and he's been at 10 in the playoffs, but I can't shake the feeling that he has an "11" in store for Kobe and the Finals. An extra decibel level, if you will. In my lifetime, Jordan could go to 11. So could Bird. Shaq and Kobe could get there together, but not apart. And really, that's it. Even Magic could get to 10 3/4 but never quite 11. It's a whole other ball game: You aren't just beating teams, you're destroying their will. You never know when you'll see another 11. I'm just glad we're here. End of tangent.) But his relationship with his teammates continues to fascinate me; because of his character and the spirit of the players that surround him, it's like watching a more animated/funny/bombastic version of Duncan's Spurs, or even last season's Boston team. I really get a kick out of them. Only LeBron and Magic could foster a climate like that just by being themselves.
We had lunch a few weeks ago and discussed the parallels between music and basketball. The structure is fundamentally the same: You have a lead singer (the NBA alpha dog, like LeBron or Kobe), the lead guitarist (the sidekick, like Pippen or McHale), the drummer (an unsung third wheel, like Parish or Worthy), the bassist (a solid, reliable and ultimately disposable role player: like Byron Scott or Anderson Varejao); and then everyone else (the other rotation guys). Bands can go different ways just like successful basketball teams. McCartney and Lennon were two geniuses who ultimately needed one another (like Young Magic and Older Kareem, or Shaq and Young Kobe), whereas MJ and LeBron were more like Sting or Springsteen (someone who could carry the band by themselves). And if you want to drag hip-hop or rap into it, the best parallel would obviously be Jordan's post-baseball Bulls: MJ was Chuck D, Pippen was Terminator X, and there is no effing doubt that Rodman was Flavor Flav.
[+] Enlarge
Gregory Shamus/Getty ImagesCould winning a title this year dull LeBron's desire for future dominance?
But you mentioned watching a documentary about the Police and realizing that Sting carried that band; the others were talented in their own right, only it bugged the hell out of them that Sting was better, and he was a blowhard to boot, so that led to many of their problems (and the band's ultimate demise). Then you look at U2: same four guys grow up together with a natural pecking order in place; everyone understands their own limitations; everyone gets that Bono is the alpha dog; and really, over everything else, that explains why they have chugged along for three solid decades without ever breaking up. (Hell, none of them ever even made a solo album. They were and are a band. Period.) Well, I thought about this. I analyzed it from every angle. And in my opinion, LeBron has a chance to be U2 or Springsteen in Cleveland. Now that he's winning, and now that the Cavs know how to build around his personality -- in a nutshell, finding complementary players who won't be threatened by him, enjoy basketball, enjoy life and aren't afraid of failing -- this could just go on and on for as long as he wants. Other stars will take less to play with him. Older players will take the minimum just to play with them for one season. Basically, it will be like Bruce deciding, "Hey guys, we're going on tour again," and the rest of the E Streeters dropping whatever they were doing to join him. Why? Because you don't turn down Bruce Springsteen. I don't believe LeBron can replicate Jordan's force of personality, and I don't think he can match his ferocious day-to-day competitiveness, because nobody can. But he's more fun to play basketball with, and he's more fun to hang out with. Like a cross between Jordan and Magic, if you will.
Considering LeBron is only 24 right now, considering how indestructible he is … I mean, where in God's name is this going? We always hear the word "genius" thrown around. Hell, B.J. Armstrong read up on geniuses once just to figure out how to play with Michael Jordan. Is there a certain genius in LeBron's ability not just to play basketball, but to connect with teammates? And are there parallels to Springsteen and Bono? Where do you see this headed? Those are my last three questions for you before you can return to feeding strawberries to Anne Hathaway on your yacht.
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grittyman20 wrote:
I like this response from another thread...
This is the time of year when everyone becomes an amateur psychiatrist and tries to psychoanalyze Bryant's body language, shot attempts, lack of shot attempts, etc. We saw this phenomenon rear its ugly head during the 2008 Finals and it is cropping up again now. I just read an entire article devoted to criticizing Bryant for scowling. When Bernard King did this everyone praised his "game face"; when Michael Jordan screamed at teammates, punched Steve Kerr in the face or trash talked with opponents and/or courtside fans everyone raved about how singularly competitive he is. How about this: instead of getting sidetracked by Bryant's scowl or about how Houston's Daryl Morey is going to revolutionize the usage of basketball statistics, let's look at the real story of this series, the story that no one is talking about: despite all of Houston's scouting and all of Houston's detailed statistics--and despite having two All-Defensive Team players in Shane Battier and Ron Artest--Kobe Bryant is averaging 29.2 ppg versus the Rockets while shooting .475 from the field and .391 from three point range and he has his Lakers on the brink of advancing to the Western Conference Finals for the second year in a row. Scoring averages and shooting percentages tend to decline in the playoffs because the competition is tougher and because each team can zero in on their opponent's tendencies but whatever advantage the Rockets claim to have in terms of statistical preparation is not showing up where it counts the most: Bryant's raw individual numbers and, even more significantly, wins and losses. Instead of focusing on a scowl or on one play or on one game, it would be nice if members of the media who discuss this series had the necessary attention span/analytical ability/intellectual honesty/communication skills to not bury the lead under a mountain of gibberish.
well said...i dont care if ppl hate kobe for his play on the court...as a Laker fan i can get very frustrated at him a lot...but to hate him because of what he does off the court is ridiculous...mycousin and my friends have met the guy (two of them met him numerous times) and they say hes good to his fans but his wife is the b-word...correct me if imwrong NT, but i really havent any negativity of kobe being an a-hole to his fans...then again athletes arent supposed to be a role model word to chuck
^^ tmoney85,your avyis fake/an act
tmoneys Laker fan card has been turned in...why dont you start that Laker offseason thread
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Pretty Toney wrote:
Probably because....we don't know them perhaps?
I know (insert professional athlete here) as just that....an ATHLETE. I don't converse and interact with this person myself in order to formulate an opinion about how I feel about anything he does that doesn't involves playing basketball.
I don't go around forming opinions about cashiers, mailmen, garbagemen, sales associates, etc. that doesn't relate to anything but their job responsibilities. Perhaps it's part of the gift and curse of being a celebrity/professional athlete because you're life is put on front street for the world's view as opposed to any of the people in the professions I just named...but personally, the same theory still applies. If a person says they don't like Kobe because they don't like his style of play...they think he's a ballhog...they think he's an overrated defender...he gambles too much...bad shot selection...I can't argue with that. I can have a different opinion...but I have no problems with it because it's pertaining to what these guys do for a living and how we know them...playing basketball. When a person starts trying to decipher his personality, question his mannerisms, and have well drawn opinions about his personal life...that's just OD to me. It's almost like your looking for these athletes as some sort of role models to fill some sort of void in your lives.
I grew up in similar conditions as Allen Iverson. Single mother...rough areas at times...moved around alot during my early stages...had a brief period trying to follow the wrong individuals. He's been my favorite player (He and Kobe are 1a and 1b to me) since his freshman year of Georgetown...and I can honestly say his image had NOTHING to do with this. I've never looked at Iverson and I said "I think this guy is a cool dude". If you ask me why I like Allen Iverson I'll tell you because he's one of the most athletically gifted individuals the sport has seen and I've always marveled at his ability to score at will with such speed and agility, yet being much smaller than the average sized athlete in the professional ranks. I'm not going to tell you something like "He keeps it real, he came from the hood like me, he never changed, he says what he wants, etc."...and that's because I couldn't care less. Allen Iverson is a man just like myself...and I don't know him. I can't have a legit opinion about the guy if I don't know him.
I don't know being a fan of a professional athlete meant that you had to follow every facet of their lives and decipher their mannerisms and off the court activity.
I've always kept athletes/entertainers in that regard...
So well said dog for real, i started to put everything in giant font but that wouldve been OD....
So many good points in there, MUCH RESPECT 4 THAT POST...[ from me anyway]
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Can we stop with the "everyone is arrogant!" comments? The thread is about Kobe's FAKENESS, not his ARROGANCE. The original article makes a pointabout how difficult it is to relate to Kobe, how ingenuine his act is, how desperate sometimes he seems to prove a point, to appease a certain crowd. It is NOTabout his arrogance or cockiness (per se)! So enough with the "everyone does it, why you hatin" comments... that really has little to do withwhat's actually being debated. You can go ahead and feel everyone is arrogant, everyone trash talks, everyone is cocky, sure. But that's not even thepoint of this thread. Read a little deeper, people.
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well said.
pretty toney = inmymind?
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I totally respect that. But with great power comes great responsibility! And yes, there are kids out there that look up to athletes as rolemodels. And no, no one looks up to Chuck anyways... Haha. In regards to Kobe, personality and mannerism are certainly part of the on court issues that someKobe haters have with the guy. Kobe is a real confident dude and he will display that with his "trash talking." However, when he is off the court butduring interviews and other off the court but still NBA related activities, he sounds like a real respectful dude. Kobe is an enigma. It's hard tocheer/hate on Kobe for 24/7 when he's not the same person 24/7.
Once again, much respect on how you view athletes/entertainers. Sadly, their mistakes are always so publicized by the media, it is hard to not to have anopinion on them on and off the court. And honestly, personality, the underdog story, "hood" life, and etc. are very marketable. AI, as you mentioned,would not have sold so many Questions and Answers without that "thug" persona that the media helped put on him. Unless you truly thought he inventedthe cross-over I guess...
There is really no right or wrong on how we should view athletes/entertainers. At the end of the day, they are just humans like you and me.
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Thank you.
And also, can we cut out the "Who else was he supposed to pattern his game after other than MJ" comments? No one is even talking about his ACTUALGAME being similar to MJ's. We're talking about his weird obsession with walking, talking, acting, sounding etc EXACTLY like MJ. Thankfully he tonedthat down over the years. In his younger days it was borderline psychotic.
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exactly..
please check out the 1:12 mark here
see, this fool truly believes he's MJ
i bet when he looks back and visualizes the game he played the other night he sees himself wearing a red bulls uniform with 23 on it
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I'll never forget that PLAYOFF game when Kobe took just 2 shots in the 2nd half just to prove a point. Or how about letting his team lose a 20 point leadin a FINALS game. What about when he lost by 30 in a FINALS closeout game. Oh yeah, how about being so "GREAT", that you're the last player inthe league people would wanna play with. Get over Laker stans, dude is a fraud and yall know it. No more championships for the Lakers, at least not while Bronplaying.
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That was against the Suns after Shaq was gone.
^
Yup, yup, thas right. I was thinking of the game with Shaq back when they were winning and some players were upset over not getting shots or something and hewas mad at them for it. So he didn't shoot in that game vs the Kings.
You're right though, he did only take 2 shots in that game 7. You do remember though that he shot lights out in the first half, had like 27 hit the 3 atthe half buzzer, but they were still down by 15+? This was the series where early in it, they had done well going thru Kwame, and Walton, and Cook and Odomdown low to slow the pace down, but in game 7 nothing was working except him. In the second half, Phil asked him to try and run through those guys again, itdidn't work, they got smoked.
Yup, yup, thas right. I was thinking of the game with Shaq back when they were winning and some players were upset over not getting shots or something and hewas mad at them for it. So he didn't shoot in that game vs the Kings.
You're right though, he did only take 2 shots in that game 7. You do remember though that he shot lights out in the first half, had like 27 hit the 3 atthe half buzzer, but they were still down by 15+? This was the series where early in it, they had done well going thru Kwame, and Walton, and Cook and Odomdown low to slow the pace down, but in game 7 nothing was working except him. In the second half, Phil asked him to try and run through those guys again, itdidn't work, they got smoked.
pretty toney
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Comments like these are why it's hard to have a legit debate in this forum...because alot of people fuel their comments with pure hatred instead of legitand honest criticism. Obviously the game where he purposely didn't shoot was a selfish act...but to single him out for the Lakers losing a lead...or forlosing by 30...and then to pull a statement out of your !%% that "he's the last player people would want to play with"....that's ridiculous.
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Cmon man seriously, you calling people STANS while guaranteeing championships to somebody that doesnt have them yet..
I've never seen a player guaranteed so much success before actually accomplishing something..
I watch LEBRON every chance i get, BUT LET HIM EARN HIS ROYALTY STATUS...Dont just hand it to him...YOU SOUND LIKE A STAN!
*NT needs a new word for stan*
its way overused..
november33rd
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Originally Posted by tilberg
exactly..
please check out the 1:12 mark here
see, this fool truly believes he's MJ
i bet when he looks back and visualizes the game he played the other night he sees himself wearing a red bulls uniform with 23 on it
Welcome to NT... now shut your mouth. Kobe does not believe he is MJ and the rest of the @@##!%$ world certainly doesn't believe that either. If the dudewanted to be wearing a Bulls uni he would have done it already. Get out of here with that crap. Anyone who grew up in the late 80's-90's andplayed/plays ball wanted to do everything like MJ and any shooting guard emulated his game after his airness.
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Originally Posted by tilberg
exactly..
please check out the 1:12 mark here
see, this fool truly believes he's MJ
i bet when he looks back and visualizes the game he played the other night he sees himself wearing a red bulls uniform with 23 on it
