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Ghetto Basketball??? Those Crazy Germans...
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by dvdjamm5150,
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i kind of feel like everywhere i look people are telling me it's wrong to hate on lebron. Now you got the racist angle. After the finals, ESPN has been pumping out numerous articles basically chastising people who root against lebron. It's annoying. This guy is so protected.
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Why? In what way is the use of a heavily racialized stereotype to epitomize "what's wrong with basketball" not racist?
If you think ghettos= black OK, but I think it's about heritage, not colour.
From the original article:
He actually explained the dress code rule by David Stern and the NBA and why they introduced it.
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Explain to me how it's "about heritage" when neither Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, nor Chris Bosh grew up in a ghetto environment.
This article doesn't function without the deployment of racial stereotype.
You claimed the article made no comment about "street gangs," but that passage quite clearly attempts to connect the dots between race, "street gangs," "ghetto basketball," and the Miami Heat.
Seriously, this is what the Miami Heat's players are supposed to represent? Dressing up like gang members? Dwyane Wade was recently named GQ's best dressed player in the NBA and made Esquire's Best Dressed List. Like Wade, LeBron James has also appeared on the cover of GQ. Both players routinely rank among the top of NBA fashion polls. To claim that they, or what they supposedly "represent," caused the NBA to revise its dress code is contrary to all reason - but, then, that's to be expected of racist hatred.
Who's making that claim?
One author does not represent the entire nation of Germany, in all its diversity. I think the point being argued here is that 1) the line of thought presented by the article is patently racist 2) although it's generally expressed via code speak (i.e. dog whistle racism) in the United States, the attitude expressed by this particular article is, sadly, more pervasive than people would like to believe.
You're not defending Germany by defending this article. You'd only be defending bigotry.
Thanks for the kind words.
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Method Man responding to people at 5 AM on a sunday morning is kind of strane
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I don't defend this article, I think it's poorly written but I still don't see race played a factor in this article.
The heritage remark by me was very mistakable, sorry.With that I meant the celebration of Dirk.
Thats why I tried to compare that with Lance Armstrong.I got the impression, he was celebrated after the Tour de France win.
The quintessence of this article was I think Rick Carlisles verdict:
Es gehe darum, den Mitspielern zu vertrauen, um Teamgeist, gemeinsamen Willen, gemeinsamen Kampf. Und nicht um Einzelspieler.
It's about having faith in his teammates, team spirit, common will, common battle.And not about a single player .
The heritage remark by me was very mistakable, sorry.With that I meant the celebration of Dirk.
Thats why I tried to compare that with Lance Armstrong.I got the impression, he was celebrated after the Tour de France win.
The quintessence of this article was I think Rick Carlisles verdict:
Es gehe darum, den Mitspielern zu vertrauen, um Teamgeist, gemeinsamen Willen, gemeinsamen Kampf. Und nicht um Einzelspieler.
It's about having faith in his teammates, team spirit, common will, common battle.And not about a single player .
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Technically, Lebron James spent some time in the projects and his mom was in and out of jail, Wade also spent some time in a rough area of the South Side of Chicago before he moved to the suburbs. But obviously they have both transcended those meager beginnings and never have displayed the ignorant and destructive mentality we see from many people that came from those environments.
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A naive journalist is trying to make a story out of something that is not what he sells it as to people who rather have a simple explanation based on stereotypes than having to understand the complex picture. That's cracker-barrel journalism, but it's especially sad to see a reputable newspaper like Die Welt reverting to such methods.
The author, Peter Schelling, obviously does not understand much about NBA basketball, let alone the element of race in the US. If he understood anything about these issues, he would realize that the stereotypes he tries to establish in his argument fail miserably in this context. He wants egomaniacal basketballers to lose against solid teamwork? The Lakers did beat the Spurs regularly in the playoffs. Huh. He wants to portray Dirk Nowitzki, without a doubt a brilliant basketballer, as the shy, team-oriented guy that lead the Mavs to victory? Do your homework, for god's sake. As already pointed out in this thread, start with the salaries, and then draw your own conclusions. Your story does not hold up, as neatly as it masturbates with the ingrained stereotypes. Yes, let us grant the black man athleticism and talent in sports, but realize that it conflicts directly with intelligence and thoughtfulness. We all know from our own experience that this polarization is true!
It does not even matter if Mr Schelling deliberately deceived his readers or if he wrote the piece oblivious of the factors that actually mattered during the finals. What matters is the fact that the article is likely to be perceived as factually correct and easily digestible by its readers. I have no doubt that it is. It fits the stereotypes and does not impose any cognitive dissonance onto the consumer. That is an obvious symptom that this kind of thinking is pervasive in the public, and that is the issue I have with this article. The task of an established newspaper (albeit on the conservative side, but that's a question of value, not of objectivity) with usually well-researched articles is to deliver differentiated information that is dissociated from punch lines. For these reasons, this article is - intended or not - racist.
Ced
The author, Peter Schelling, obviously does not understand much about NBA basketball, let alone the element of race in the US. If he understood anything about these issues, he would realize that the stereotypes he tries to establish in his argument fail miserably in this context. He wants egomaniacal basketballers to lose against solid teamwork? The Lakers did beat the Spurs regularly in the playoffs. Huh. He wants to portray Dirk Nowitzki, without a doubt a brilliant basketballer, as the shy, team-oriented guy that lead the Mavs to victory? Do your homework, for god's sake. As already pointed out in this thread, start with the salaries, and then draw your own conclusions. Your story does not hold up, as neatly as it masturbates with the ingrained stereotypes. Yes, let us grant the black man athleticism and talent in sports, but realize that it conflicts directly with intelligence and thoughtfulness. We all know from our own experience that this polarization is true!
It does not even matter if Mr Schelling deliberately deceived his readers or if he wrote the piece oblivious of the factors that actually mattered during the finals. What matters is the fact that the article is likely to be perceived as factually correct and easily digestible by its readers. I have no doubt that it is. It fits the stereotypes and does not impose any cognitive dissonance onto the consumer. That is an obvious symptom that this kind of thinking is pervasive in the public, and that is the issue I have with this article. The task of an established newspaper (albeit on the conservative side, but that's a question of value, not of objectivity) with usually well-researched articles is to deliver differentiated information that is dissociated from punch lines. For these reasons, this article is - intended or not - racist.
Ced
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And everyone loved Harry Belafonte when he was just singing the Banana Boat song and not protesting for civil rights. Point being: LeBron was "loved" up until he asserted his right to self-determination. The moment he sloughed aside his loyalties and unapologetically demonstrated that he had his own personal goals and was not, as it turned out, the property of Cleveland, Ohio, he was treated the way a people treat a dog unsatisfied with living on table scraps or how people in many parts of the world still treat women who desire self-sufficiency through education and employment. He rejected the "bargain," the veneer of love that encases servitude, and, thus, came across as an "ingrate," as one who chose to "bite the hand that feeds him." (Never mind how much money he made for Dan Gilbert and, to a certain extent, for the city of Cleveland and how, ultimately, ungrateful they were when all was said and done.)
These types of incidents merely bring to the surface qualities that were always present within the status quo. Just as the oxygen present in a room feeds a fire, the racism that permeates our society carries with it an explosive potential. The conflagration, the conflict, does not create it but, rather, merely consumes it as fuel.
You just said a whole lot of nothing with a few big words sprinkled in there to add complexity. Your comparing apples to oranges at that. Lebron is no Harry Belafonte, and this situation really lacks any similarity's. People in Cleveland might hate him for leaving Cleveland, but the rest of the world doesn't. He is hated for the way he went about things and for joining another superstars team, thus taking what many see to be the easy road out or towards a championship. Had he joined a different team sure Cleveland would still hate, but no one else would care. So how anything your saying in this Ghostface'%%@ paragraph is relevant to my response or even what I was replying to is beyond me.
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Ceddie, it's always great to see you post. You realize, of course, that you hadn't done so in two years. Hopefully I'll live long enough to see you reach 6,600 posts.
So much salt. I'm not going to address the childish insults, because the rest of us were enjoying a respectful discussion, so I'll simply say this:
Did people hate the US Olympic team for taking the "easy way out?" If LeBron, DWade, and Chris Bosh vs. the rest of the NBA is unfair, what about LeBron, DWade, Chris Bosh, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, Deron Williams, Jason Kidd, and Carmelo Anthony vs.... Pau Gasol and Ricky Rubio?
People don't seem to mind when star players combine to serve their interests, but they do take issue when star players place their own interests ahead of franchise loyalty. These days, they hate you if you DON'T play for USA Basketball, because you have the nerve to recover from the long season and spend your summer the way you want to rather than accept the honor of playing for Team USA for free and making millions for USA Basketball and its corporate sponsors.
That's the purpose of the Harry Belafonte analogy. He's "loved" when he does what you want him to do. When his needs and yours diverge, however, all of that "love" is exposed for what it really is.
Rarely is the world so simplistic as to offer us a clean, single cause explanation for every phenomenon. As I said earlier, "We need to move beyond understanding racism as an all or nothing proposition, wherein someone is either an overtly racist person or wholly innocent." It's foolish to argue that the overwhelming hatred of LeBron James boils down to racism OR ego.
LeBron's self-aggrandizing approach to "The Decision" irritated a lot of fans, but I'd argue that racism intensified their reaction. White players seem to enjoy greater latitude in demanding trades, abandoning franchises, and calling attention to themselves and I don't think we can easily account for that without at least acknowledging the influence of racism.
So much salt. I'm not going to address the childish insults, because the rest of us were enjoying a respectful discussion, so I'll simply say this:
Did people hate the US Olympic team for taking the "easy way out?" If LeBron, DWade, and Chris Bosh vs. the rest of the NBA is unfair, what about LeBron, DWade, Chris Bosh, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, Deron Williams, Jason Kidd, and Carmelo Anthony vs.... Pau Gasol and Ricky Rubio?
People don't seem to mind when star players combine to serve their interests, but they do take issue when star players place their own interests ahead of franchise loyalty. These days, they hate you if you DON'T play for USA Basketball, because you have the nerve to recover from the long season and spend your summer the way you want to rather than accept the honor of playing for Team USA for free and making millions for USA Basketball and its corporate sponsors.
That's the purpose of the Harry Belafonte analogy. He's "loved" when he does what you want him to do. When his needs and yours diverge, however, all of that "love" is exposed for what it really is.
Rarely is the world so simplistic as to offer us a clean, single cause explanation for every phenomenon. As I said earlier, "We need to move beyond understanding racism as an all or nothing proposition, wherein someone is either an overtly racist person or wholly innocent." It's foolish to argue that the overwhelming hatred of LeBron James boils down to racism OR ego.
LeBron's self-aggrandizing approach to "The Decision" irritated a lot of fans, but I'd argue that racism intensified their reaction. White players seem to enjoy greater latitude in demanding trades, abandoning franchises, and calling attention to themselves and I don't think we can easily account for that without at least acknowledging the influence of racism.
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Care to share any examples of this?
The problem with your whole argument is that there is no evidence to prove that the hate towards Lebron has anything to do with racism. However, there is an abundance of evidence pointing to it having to do with his arrogance and how he embarrassed an entire city on national television and how he tried to take the easy road to the top. His race is irrelevant. Arrogance is arrogance no matter what color you are
This. And I don't understand the Olympics argument at all. Comparing sending all of our best players to represent the country is completely different than abandoning your team/city and joining up with other superstars, and basically throwing a championship parade before the season even starts.
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Ich will nur handeln wie ich Deutsch zu kennen.
eine ernste Angelegenheit dieser Thread
eine ernste Angelegenheit dieser Thread
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LeBron was arrogant when he was in Cleveland, though. The guy had a 5 story billboard and an arena of people who were "witnesses" to his purported greatness even though he'd never won a title. He has a tattoo that says "Chosen One" on his back. He refers to himself as "the king." All of that was true when his popularity was at its zenith.
Some people didn't like him at that time, but it doesn't account for the increase.
As for examples: Brett Favre, as I already mentioned, jerked everyone around for the last few years with his "will he or won't he" act, which was like "The Decision" the series.
John Elway can demand a trade after being drafted by the Baltimore Colts, no problem. Eli Manning refuses to play for the Chargers and forces a trade to the Giants? Eh, no big deal. When Steve Francis decided he'd rather not work 3,000 miles from home, in a country with a higher tax rate, everyone breaks out torches and pitchforks.
Again, it's not all or nothing - but it's not much of a stretch to believe that racism holds some influence here, just as it does in billions of other situations. Maybe racism isn't THE reason why you got pulled over, but it could be the reason why the officer decided to give you lip in the process and suspect you had weed in the car. Should you tell anyone this, naturally those who've never been on the receiving end of racial profiling will say, "but how do you KNOW that, though? I mean, I know that racism's alive, they just be concealing it, and everything - I do listen to rap - but... there's just no PROOF, you know? He's gotta at least call you a racial slur.... on tape. Then I'll believe it."
For the record I hated Lebron for his arrogance when he was in Cleaveland as did many, many others. What accounts for the recent increase in negativity is the tremendous amount of media attention "The Decision" and the welcoming party and the Heat in general garnered over the last year. This unprecedented press coverage exposed the type of person Lebron is on a larger scale than ever before, causing more people to dislike him.
If you blame racism for this situation without the slightest shred of evidence, where do you draw the line? Under this logic, you can blame just about anything that happens on racism. "The lady at the grocery store was rude to me this morning. She must be racist! That explains it! The shoe store didn't have my size. Those damn racists are probably saving it for their white customers." See how ridiculous that sounds?
Don't get me wrong, I know racism still exists and I'm sure there are some morons out there who hate Lebron because he is black, but I just feel like blaming the recent spike in Lebron hatred on anything other than his own childish, arrogant behavior is giving him a pass that he does not deserve.
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on the real, blacks get hit harder when they slip up, it is wat it is though
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LeBron was arrogant when he was in Cleveland, though. The guy had a 5 story billboard and an arena of people who were "witnesses" to his purported greatness even though he'd never won a title. He has a tattoo that says "Chosen One" on his back. He refers to himself as "the king." All of that was true when his popularity was at its zenith.
Some people didn't like him at that time, but it doesn't account for the increase.
As for examples: Brett Favre, as I already mentioned, jerked everyone around for the last few years with his "will he or won't he" act, which was like "The Decision" the series.
John Elway can demand a trade after being drafted by the Baltimore Colts, no problem. Eli Manning refuses to play for the Chargers and forces a trade to the Giants? Eh, no big deal. When Steve Francis decided he'd rather not work 3,000 miles from home, in a country with a higher tax rate, everyone breaks out torches and pitchforks.
Again, it's not all or nothing - but it's not much of a stretch to believe that racism holds some influence here, just as it does in billions of other situations. Maybe racism isn't THE reason why you got pulled over, but it could be the reason why the officer decided to give you lip in the process and suspect you had weed in the car. Should you tell anyone this, naturally those who've never been on the receiving end of racial profiling will say, "but how do you KNOW that, though? I mean, I know that racism's alive, they just be concealing it, and everything - I do listen to rap - but... there's just no PROOF, you know? He's gotta at least call you a racial slur.... on tape. Then I'll believe it."
You're making two different arguments. The point I was addressing referred to LeBron "taking the easy way out."
Nobody said that about the Olympic team. Nobody (in the US at least) complained that it was anti-competitive.
You comparing them to the olympic team still doesn't add up. And most of what your saying doesn't either. No salt, just saying. I understand what your saying, but like I said it doesn't add up and honestly it doesn't make for a valid argument. Your going off conspiracy, which concealed racism for the most part boils down to, but the difference is nothing that your saying is really enough to show there's even a subconscious, underlying racial tone in what's going on with the heat. There's a whole lot more pointing towards the other side of the debate, then what your tossing in there is what I'm saying. And on top of everything, a VERY large portion of the anti-heat folk were of color. Btw Brett Favre probably isn't your best bet to help your argument
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You guys are acting like you didn't just read an entire newspaper article about how White knight Dirk Nowitzki defeated "ghetto basketball."
As I already wrote:
The only people making this out to be "all or nothing" are those denying the influence of racism.
Who's giving him a pass? It's not as though LeBron James is the only Black player in the NBA. Obviously there was a catalyst. The whole point is that racism is intensifying the hatred of LeBron James.
Most of the reasons people are throwing out to rationalize their hatred are inconsistent at best. They despise LeBron James for doing what plenty of others do in different situations.
That's just a really long way of saying "nuh uh." You're saying I'm wrong because.... you disagree? Okay. It must be nice to just ignore every point you don't like and then write the whole thing off with "it doesn't add up to me." That's sort of majority privilege in a nutshell, isn't it?
"I know some Black people who don't like LeBron James?" And? In 1995, opinions polls showed that 30% of Black respondents believed OJ Simpson was innocent compared to 7% of White respondents. See? Some White people thought OJ was innocent, too! Ergo, race had nothing to do with that case.
Maybe this is all just a figment of our collective imagination... we'll just ignore this German article as a complete outlier.
Oh.... there is one small problem:
According to Q Rating polls, the percentage of NON-Black respondents who DISLIKE LeBron James skyrocketed after he left the Cavs: from 24% to a whopping 44%.
If you're correct, we should see something similar with Black respondents, right? Here's how "The Decision" shifted their opinions:
LeBron's negative Q rating among Black respondents went from 14% to 15%. (If that's "VERY large," what's the White percentage?)
So, to sum up: 20% shift for Whites, nearly half of whom now hate the man vs.... ONE percent shift for Black respondents.
(I'd be willing to bet that racial disparity grew even larger in the Finals.)
Oh, and yes, of course, here are a couple of sources, since I have to take on the burden of proof:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?id=5596310
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....race-played-role-in-backlash-to-his-decision/
But I guess that's all just "conspiracy talk," like every other claim of "concealed racism."
As I already wrote:
The only people making this out to be "all or nothing" are those denying the influence of racism.
Who's giving him a pass? It's not as though LeBron James is the only Black player in the NBA. Obviously there was a catalyst. The whole point is that racism is intensifying the hatred of LeBron James.
Most of the reasons people are throwing out to rationalize their hatred are inconsistent at best. They despise LeBron James for doing what plenty of others do in different situations.
That's just a really long way of saying "nuh uh." You're saying I'm wrong because.... you disagree? Okay. It must be nice to just ignore every point you don't like and then write the whole thing off with "it doesn't add up to me." That's sort of majority privilege in a nutshell, isn't it?
"I know some Black people who don't like LeBron James?" And? In 1995, opinions polls showed that 30% of Black respondents believed OJ Simpson was innocent compared to 7% of White respondents. See? Some White people thought OJ was innocent, too! Ergo, race had nothing to do with that case.
Maybe this is all just a figment of our collective imagination... we'll just ignore this German article as a complete outlier.
Oh.... there is one small problem:
According to Q Rating polls, the percentage of NON-Black respondents who DISLIKE LeBron James skyrocketed after he left the Cavs: from 24% to a whopping 44%.
If you're correct, we should see something similar with Black respondents, right? Here's how "The Decision" shifted their opinions:
LeBron's negative Q rating among Black respondents went from 14% to 15%. (If that's "VERY large," what's the White percentage?)
So, to sum up: 20% shift for Whites, nearly half of whom now hate the man vs.... ONE percent shift for Black respondents.
(I'd be willing to bet that racial disparity grew even larger in the Finals.)
Oh, and yes, of course, here are a couple of sources, since I have to take on the burden of proof:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?id=5596310
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....race-played-role-in-backlash-to-his-decision/
But I guess that's all just "conspiracy talk," like every other claim of "concealed racism."
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Best response in this thread
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Those crazy Germans ?
What about those crazy americans ?
What about those crazy americans ?
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That's what you call proof?Originally Posted by Method Man
According to Q Rating polls, the percentage of NON-Black respondents who DISLIKE LeBron James skyrocketed after he left the Cavs: from 24% to a whopping 44%.
If you're correct, we should see something similar with Black respondents, right? Here's how "The Decision" shifted their opinions:
LeBron's negative Q rating among Black respondents went from 14% to 15%. (If that's "VERY large," what's the White percentage?)
So, to sum up: 20% shift for Whites, nearly half of whom now hate the man vs.... ONE percent shift for Black respondents.
(I'd be willing to bet that racial disparity grew even larger in the Finals.)
Oh, and yes, of course, here are a couple of sources, since I have to take on the burden of proof:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?id=5596310
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....race-played-role-in-backlash-to-his-decision/
But I guess that's all just "conspiracy talk," like every other claim of "concealed racism."
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^ That first article Method Man posted seems to point more to the fact that when a problem arises, some black people will defend other black people regardless "guilt" or "innocence." It refers to this as "black protectionism."
Couldn't you say it is this phenomenon that accounts for the survey results just as easily as you could say it's due to racism?
That kind of goes against what you're trying to prove doesn't it?
Couldn't you say it is this phenomenon that accounts for the survey results just as easily as you could say it's due to racism?
That kind of goes against what you're trying to prove doesn't it?
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Let's compare this to your "proof," i.e. "race has nothing to do with it cuz I know Black guys who hate Lebron James, too! SO THERE! What a JOKE!"That's what you call proof?So is their a poll showing how many NBA fans dont bother with these polls? Is there a poll showing how many of those non-caring fans are black? So all them whites didn't hate the black man until he switched sides, but deep down it's cause of his pigment that they have this animosity? This is what your getting at? K Meth
There's a racial disparity here and not only were you unaware of it, but you have no way of explaining it, either. So, instead, you just deny the whole thing. Nice work.
Your questions show that you lack a fundamental understanding of how opinion polling works. Q Scores may not be "the all seeing eye," but nor are they voluntary web polls. You're dealing with large samples drawn so as to be representative, so the self-selection bias doesn't apply. If you want to present a critique of their sampling methodology, be my guest, but simply saying, "they didn't ask EVERYONE" isn't going to cut it.
Racism in today's society often operates within the subconscious. I don't expect many people to say, straight up, that they resent LeBron James because he refused to demonstrate due deference and "know his place," much less that such sentiments have been influenced by racism. All they know is that, now, they just plain don't like the guy. If you ask why LeBron, in particular, is treated this way compared to other athletes, or why they hated Steve Francis for doing exactly what Eli Manning received virtually no backlash for doing, they'll often have difficulty attempting to explain what, for them, was a simply a "gut feeling."
These are prejudices. It's like asking someone to logically explain why they hate gay men or why they tend to have lower opinions of women in authority positions.
The point of the link was simply to offer a citation for the poll results, so people didn't think I just plucked them out of thin air (again, nobody else seems to feel any need to substantiate their opinions, but that's to be expected.) The data are subject to interpretation, of course, but there's no reason to believe that the so-called "White" response to LeBron James is the "correct" one and that ONLY people of color have been influenced by race. Even if we're to take the "Black protectionism" article at full face value, it's nonetheless a reaction to racism. We've seen this sort of lynch mob mentality attack one celebrity after another, and so it's no surprise that, for some, the tendency is to defend a Michael Vick, for example, against his oft-hypocritical detractors.
Racism is a factor. CLEARLY, we see that with this whole "ghetto basketball" stereotype. How often was LeBron James accused of playing "ghetto basketball" for the Cavaliers? Instead, everyone played up how he "made his teammates better" through his passing ability.
I'd argue that LeBron James became "ghetto," to some people, when he rejected the "worker bee" mentality. His game on the court hasn't changed. Really, his personality isn't any different, either. So, what suddenly made him "ghetto?" What does "ghetto" mean in this context?
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never read that dwade aritcle thanks for that. there are some things in life that are too stupid to respond to and this article is one of them. and btw meth u are defending the soft weak minded mentality that so many people hate lebron for. you can rationalize his situation however u want but at the end of the day fans hate him because he has the potential to be the greatest ever but the mentality of a spoiled rich kid who always gets what he wants. thats not the type of qualities people want to see in star athletes. he has made some terrible decisions and has consistently proven just how inferior he is mentally to those he gets compared with. but go ahead blame it on racism thats always easier. and lebron and wade have definitely been exposed to ghetto environments. u dont get that nice playin strictly in the burbs.
