what do you think of liberals and conservatives?

[sreal]

since people be bringing politics into every thread/topic ever, thought we might as well have a thread that focuses on the main issue.... bipartisanship.

liberals, in my opinion, are headed in the right direction and at heart do want to make changes that are better for the entire nation, but they just don't have the organizational power like the conservatives do which in part has to do with the diversity of the group... conservatives on the other hand(in my opinion) are too set in their ways and seem to fear change... seems to me that liberals are willing to work together for the people, but conservatives mostly only care about themselves and the money...

opinions? thoughts? lets try to keep it as least personal as possible

 

[ninjahood]

liberal society = nanny state

republican society = lassie faire (your rise or fall on your own, no help)

then you mix in religious and environmental zealots and thats basically it.

 

[futuremd]

Labels are distractions.

We are all members of the same continuum...and frankly we agree more than we disagree for the most part.

If you're liberal 100 years ago, you wanted to abolish slavery. 100 years from now are you liberal if you want to introduce slavery? 

Conservative implies just the status quo. Liberal implies a shift from that equilibrium

See what I mean? It depends what you're talking about and what issues you're addressing. 

Also, don't forget that you can be fiscally conservative/liberal and socially conservative/liberal. 

I think fiscal conservatism is an admirable aim at times, but if its marred with the social conservatism then I can't support it only because of the direct and outright infringement on the rights of others.

At least in the US, If you're a conservative you claim to want individual freedoms...but reject things like the freedom to marry who you want...whats conservative about that?

The best way to even "predict" things about people is to look at parties who assert things, not the people themselves.

Its harder to be a liberal democrat than just a democrat. Democrats do things I disagree with and Republicans do things I agree with and vice versa. The parties themselves are not the extent of liberalism or conservatism itself, respectively. 

 

[ninjahood]

this should more or less answer all your questions

 

[Peep Game]

That the majority of one side points out to the other side things that they do themselves, and vice versa. Seems like people always cross their views up depending on what day it is.

 

[futuremd]

this should more or less answer all your questions

Chart is funny...you can tell the "left" made it. 

There are some SLIGHT nuances. 

 

[sreal]

the utopianism "the world can be better" vs the preservation "the world is fine as it is" nails both parties right on the head

 

[lobotomybeats]

Liberals plant trees under whose shades they never expect to sit under.
Conservatives don't care about those who may benefit from sitting under said trees...unless they are fellow conservatives

 

[futuremd]

Liberals plant trees under whose shades they never expect to sit under.
Conservatives don't care about those who may benefit from sitting under said trees...unless they are fellow conservatives

While I think this point simplifies things, it brings light to something I don't really understand.

Why is so much of the modern republican party SO anti-science to the point that they reject efforts to conserve the environment? Or are they afraid of liberal policies that would infringe on their "freedom" to do business? 

 

[ninjahood]

Liberals plant trees under whose shades they never expect to sit under.
Conservatives don't care about those who may benefit from sitting under said trees...unless they are fellow conservatives

While I think this point simplifies things, it brings light to something I don't really understand.

Why is so much of the modern republican party SO anti-science to the point that they reject efforts to conserve the environment? Or are they afraid of liberal policies that would infringe on their "freedom" to do business? 

you answered your own question.

hence why "global warming" is a term you will not see in this election by obama.

 

[futuremd]

Liberals plant trees under whose shades they never expect to sit under.
Conservatives don't care about those who may benefit from sitting under said trees...unless they are fellow conservatives

While I think this point simplifies things, it brings light to something I don't really understand.

Why is so much of the modern republican party SO anti-science to the point that they reject efforts to conserve the environment? Or are they afraid of liberal policies that would infringe on their "freedom" to do business? 

you answered your own question.

hence why "global warming" is a term you will not see in this election by obama.

You can't have it both ways though.

The same companies allowed to exist under conservative ideology have abused their so called responsibility to the environment. 

 

[bandit country]

Liberals value equality over liberty.
Leftists would rather everyone be mediocre, than some rising and some falling.
Leftism is a dynamic religion.
Conservatives want the government out of peoples' lives except when it comes to the war on drugs and abortion and anything else they don't like.
Both parties agree that dissent isn't patriotic.
Libertarians extract ideology to illogical ends.

I love the idea that liberals are the party of racial equality. You forget FDR put the Japanese in interment camps REAL quick. Al Gore's daddy was against integration, and we know how LBJ felt about da blacks.

That chart is a joke. Ask a Pakistani child with his face blown off if Obama's left is pacifistic.

 

[sreal]

You can't have it both ways though.

The same companies allowed to exist under conservative ideology have abused their so called responsibility to the environment. 

sadly, the environment isn't as important as $$

 

[iamyourfather]

 

[SoleByThePound]

Labels are distractions.

/thread

 

[futuremd]

Oh really?

What are the key takeaways from this?

I hope you're not black/hispanic, female, non-religious, or gay either when you answer this. 

 

[futuremd]

Liberals value equality over liberty.
Leftists would rather everyone be mediocre, than some rising and some falling.
Leftism is a dynamic religion.
Conservatives want the government out of peoples' lives except when it comes to the war on drugs and abortion and anything else they don't like.
Both parties agree that dissent isn't patriotic.
Libertarians extract ideology to illogical ends.

I love the idea that liberals are the party of racial equality. You forget FDR put the Japanese in interment camps REAL quick. Al Gore's daddy was against integration, and we know how LBJ felt about da blacks.

That chart is a joke. Ask a Pakistani child with his face blown off if Obama's left is pacifistic.

You're not describing the left and the right.

You're describing democrats and republicans. 

Also, you forget that the parties switched ideologies about 3, maybe 4 depending on what you want to say, times. 

 

[bandit country]

You're not describing the left and the right.

You're describing democrats and republicans. 

Also, you forget that the parties switched ideologies about 3, maybe 4 depending on what you want to say, times. 

Absolutely, 100% wrong. Leftism is the same, regardless of what country it's manifested. That definition is fixed. The definition of 'right' becomes a little unclear depending on context. Europe has numerous Nazi parties, but that doesn't mean that Europe is more 'right' than the United States, does it?

Did you copy and paste your response? Nothing you wrote has ANYTHING to do with what I wrote.

I'm not describing left v. right? So when Francois Hollande of France says that homework is immoral because students have differing degrees of support at home, that's not valuing equality over everything, including quality?

Miss me with that parties changed ideology meme. That has nothing to do with this conversation. We're not talking about Dixicrats.

I really cant' get over that chart. It labels Communism as the natural extension of leftists policies, but has the audacity to say Leftism is pacifistic. How many deaths did Mao cause?

I will agree that the political ideology spectrum is more a circle than a line. Radical leftists and radical right wingers ultimately support similar policies.

 

[futuremd]

You're not describing the left and the right.

You're describing democrats and republicans. 

Also, you forget that the parties switched ideologies about 3, maybe 4 depending on what you want to say, times. 

Absolutely, 100% wrong. Leftism is the same, regardless of what country it's manifested. That definition is fixed. The definition of 'right' becomes a little unclear depending on context. Europe has numerous Nazi parties, but that doesn't mean that Europe is more 'right' than the United States, does it?

Did you copy and paste your response? Nothing you wrote has ANYTHING to do with what I wrote.

I'm not describing left v. right? So when Francois Hollande of France says that homework is immoral because students have differing degrees of support at home, that's not valuing equality over everything, including quality?

How the hell do you say that with a serious face? There is no absolute "left" either. 

And you're failing with that "you want everyone to be mediocre line"

Really?

I think EQUAL ACCESS is what I'd say leftists/liberals in the US/Canada prefer...not equal outcomes. 

On top of that, when you describe Nazism, that doesn't relate to WHAT Nazism does. Are we talking Facism? Then you're not separating social from economic differences between these labels.

Miss me with that parties changed ideology meme. That has nothing to do with this conversation.

Says the guy who tries to pin "liberalism" with interning the Japanese and resisting civil rights.

Thats not liberalism. That was the democratic party. A party whose views have changed since the 1940s. 

 

[mp3911]

I think liberals have it half right with their lax social policies, but I don't agree at all with their economic policies and the expansion of the federal government. I don't agree with any of the conservative positions; on social issues, they want their opinion to be supreme, and on economic issues, they're not really adhering to their conservative ideal, since they still want to spend money, just in different areas of the government.

 

[bandit country]

How the hell do you say that with a serious face? There is no absolute "left" either. 

And you're failing with that "you want everyone to be mediocre line"

Really?

I think EQUAL ACCESS is what I'd say leftists/liberals in the US/Canada prefer...not equal outcomes. 

On top of that, when you describe Nazism, that doesn't relate to WHAT Nazism does. Are we talking Facism? Then you're not separating social from economic differences between these labels.


Says the guy who tries to pin "liberalism" with interning the Japanese and resisting civil rights.

Thats not liberalism. That was the democratic party. A party whose views have changed since the 1940s. 

LOL. Ok. FDR wasn't a liberal, just a Democrat right? He didn't define liberalism in this country?

The logical end to leftism is Communism. The logical end of the right is anarchy, not Facism. That's why European political sentiments cannot be described in the same terms as American.

I'm glad you addressed the pacifism issue as well.

Equality of opportunity is impossible.

 

[futuremd]

How the hell do you say that with a serious face? There is no absolute "left" either. 

And you're failing with that "you want everyone to be mediocre line"

Really?

I think EQUAL ACCESS is what I'd say leftists/liberals in the US/Canada prefer...not equal outcomes. 

On top of that, when you describe Nazism, that doesn't relate to WHAT Nazism does. Are we talking Facism? Then you're not separating social from economic differences between these labels.


Says the guy who tries to pin "liberalism" with interning the Japanese and resisting civil rights.

Thats not liberalism. That was the democratic party. A party whose views have changed since the 1940s. 

LOL. Ok. FDR wasn't a liberal, just a Democrat right? He didn't define liberalism in this country?

The logical end to leftism is Communism. The logical end of the right is anarchy, not Facism. That's why European political sentiments cannot be described in the same terms as American.

I'm glad you addressed the pacifism issue as well.

Stop confusing party ideology with philosophical absolutes. 

 

[secretzofwar]

Couldn't have said it better than Future MDs first post. Liberal/conservative are meant to distract people from the fact that the "left" and "right" in America aren't all that different. In marketing, that's known as product differentiation. An iPhone and a Samsung Galaxy have slightly different nuances, but at the end of the day, they are still smartphones.

Terrible people on both sides of the aisle as well.

Paul Ryan :x

Barney Frank

 

[bandit country]

Most people would agree that the DEMOCRATIC PARTY in America is center right and the REPUBLICAN PARTY is far right.

What does that have to do with leftism?

There are extreme leftists in the DEMOCRAT PARTY and there are moderates.

That does not change the idea of leftism, though.

If the definitions of Liberal and Conservative are constantly changing as you posite, what's the point of using them?

This thread is about left v. right. If you want to pretend it's about anything else, that's on you.

Liberal/conservative are meant to distract people from the fact that the "left" and "right" in America aren't all that different. {

In America, yes. But just because America doesn't bear out the severe differences between the two ideologies doesn't mean those differences don't exist.

 

[ninjahood]

bottom line is when you go TOO far left and TOO far right is all bad either way.