Are you an Atheist? What Promted Your Choice?

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by RamZs8906

Just a few things.

1. Add Religious/ Spiritual beliefs to things NEVER to be discussed on #NT

2. Believe what you believe, you really can't convince someone how you believe something is correct because what's true to them is FOR them.

We are just discussing. I actually like these discussions on NT and to read different viewpoints. No different than discussing world issues and politics.

3. As a Non-Religious Christian (yes that is possible, and yes I do go to church; Religions = cults) I know for myself, first hand the power of prayer and seeing what my faith has done in my life and why certain things occur in my life. I know for myself that my faith in something I can not explain is what helps me keep going many days. And that's good enough for me, I don't need to convince anyone else that my faith belief is right, because it sits right in my soul.


Whatever fulfills you and brings you peace, all the more power to you. Infact, I see that when I became more of a non-religious Muslim and then now turned into an Agnostic, I am so much more tolerant of everyone's beliefs and faith systems. When I was a believer, I was more judgmental and intolerant because I believed Islam was the correct and true religion and the only way of life while everyone else is doomed to Hell for being unbelievers. Such an inferiority complex and quite prejudice thinking to me.

As for the power of prayer, again, that is cool you believe it works for you. As my opinion about it?All superstition. Why can't it work for some and not others to have their prayers answered? I remember as a young girl, praying every single night to God asking him to cure my grandpa of his leukemia. I would sit there and cry and beg and beg with all my belief. My grandpa still died. But then...Oh yea, it was his time to go. :S Why God did you not answer my prayers and why make my beautiful grandfather suffer agony and pain while dying? Why did He take my Grandpa away when I was still young, to the point that I will miss out on seeing me grow up with him around and share my life with him and it and even be at my wedding like I used to imagine as a little girl?Why did my prayer fail?

Maybe its me, but I often find that many people who are Athiest (IMO) have a very pessimistic way of looking at life. I prefer to have that hope, that faith that when I pass I'll move on to a place better than here.

4. And just for the record, I'd rather live life believing in a Higher Power and die to find out he doesn't exist, than to live life as if God didn't exist, die, and be sitting there at the moment of Judgement about to go to Hell.

How are Atheists pessimist because they do not believe in an afterlife? It is just realistic to them. We just decompose and die and are gone. That's it. Why does there need to be an afterlife for our purpose?Actually, why is it that us humans, as the most evolved and intelligent beings believe there should be our purpose to be here on earth?How about the other species?Is there an afterlife for animals?Why just us?

You are a Christian and your chances of going to Hell using your logic is the same as everyone else's then. What if your religion is not the true one?There are ten thousands of religions that exist, and so you have ultimate faith yours is the right and truthful one? Your chances are the same as an Atheist then.

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by RamZs8906

Just a few things.

1. Add Religious/ Spiritual beliefs to things NEVER to be discussed on #NT

2. Believe what you believe, you really can't convince someone how you believe something is correct because what's true to them is FOR them.

We are just discussing. I actually like these discussions on NT and to read different viewpoints. No different than discussing world issues and politics.

3. As a Non-Religious Christian (yes that is possible, and yes I do go to church; Religions = cults) I know for myself, first hand the power of prayer and seeing what my faith has done in my life and why certain things occur in my life. I know for myself that my faith in something I can not explain is what helps me keep going many days. And that's good enough for me, I don't need to convince anyone else that my faith belief is right, because it sits right in my soul.


Whatever fulfills you and brings you peace, all the more power to you. Infact, I see that when I became more of a non-religious Muslim and then now turned into an Agnostic, I am so much more tolerant of everyone's beliefs and faith systems. When I was a believer, I was more judgmental and intolerant because I believed Islam was the correct and true religion and the only way of life while everyone else is doomed to Hell for being unbelievers. Such an inferiority complex and quite prejudice thinking to me.

As for the power of prayer, again, that is cool you believe it works for you. As my opinion about it?All superstition. Why can't it work for some and not others to have their prayers answered? I remember as a young girl, praying every single night to God asking him to cure my grandpa of his leukemia. I would sit there and cry and beg and beg with all my belief. My grandpa still died. But then...Oh yea, it was his time to go. :S Why God did you not answer my prayers and why make my beautiful grandfather suffer agony and pain while dying? Why did He take my Grandpa away when I was still young, to the point that I will miss out on seeing me grow up with him around and share my life with him and it and even be at my wedding like I used to imagine as a little girl?Why did my prayer fail?

Maybe its me, but I often find that many people who are Athiest (IMO) have a very pessimistic way of looking at life. I prefer to have that hope, that faith that when I pass I'll move on to a place better than here.

4. And just for the record, I'd rather live life believing in a Higher Power and die to find out he doesn't exist, than to live life as if God didn't exist, die, and be sitting there at the moment of Judgement about to go to Hell.

How are Atheists pessimist because they do not believe in an afterlife? It is just realistic to them. We just decompose and die and are gone. That's it. Why does there need to be an afterlife for our purpose?Actually, why is it that us humans, as the most evolved and intelligent beings believe there should be our purpose to be here on earth?How about the other species?Is there an afterlife for animals?Why just us?

You are a Christian and your chances of going to Hell using your logic is the same as everyone else's then. What if your religion is not the true one?There are ten thousands of religions that exist, and so you have ultimate faith yours is the right and truthful one? Your chances are the same as an Atheist then.

 

[acts65]

Originally Posted by ABC

I stopped following God after being forced to go to church/take theology classes from basically birth to the end of high school... I went to a catholic H.S. that was a lot of fun, but there was a lot of forcing ideas onto students. Once I experienced freshman year of college I just didn't care anymore 

 kanyeshrug
Also, another turning point that pretty much cemented my status was when my cousin died last summer... he was 32 and died from cancer and religious folks were trying to tell me "it's part of God's plan, it was his time to go, it's all in the grand scheme of things..." etc, etc, bs, etc. How is it God's plan to take away a young man who was engaged with a good accounting job in downtown Chicago?? PLEASE, jesus freaks, explain this to me... because as far as I can tell, cancer is random and so is death. People die because of chance and poor luck. It's not some dude pushing buttons in the sky that turns off your life like a light switch, my cousin had the poor fortune to become sick and he passed. NOTHING beneficial happened from his death, it only ruined lives and made things a lot worse. If I have God to thank for all of the bad things in the world, then he sucks. 

The Problem of Evil has been one of the greatest areas of debate and confusion.  It is based on three premises:
1) God is good
2) God is in control of all things
3) Evil exists

People ask, "If God exists and is good and in control of all things, then how come evil exists?"
They form the following conclusions:
1) God is in control but he is not good (some forms of Agnosticism)
2) God is in good but not in control
3) Evil is an illusion (Hinduism, Christian Scientist)
4) God does not exist (Atheist)
5) God is good, in control, evil exists, and God has some purpose for evil, sometimes we can understand why but for the most part it remains a mystery (Christianity)

Personally, I believe in #5

Pain, evil, and suffering are a difficult thing to accept.  My cousin died in college.  He was a good guy, hard-working, helped out those in need, etc.  Why did he have to die?  Honestly, I don't know.  There is not easy answer to this question.

 

[acts65]

Originally Posted by ABC

I stopped following God after being forced to go to church/take theology classes from basically birth to the end of high school... I went to a catholic H.S. that was a lot of fun, but there was a lot of forcing ideas onto students. Once I experienced freshman year of college I just didn't care anymore 

 kanyeshrug
Also, another turning point that pretty much cemented my status was when my cousin died last summer... he was 32 and died from cancer and religious folks were trying to tell me "it's part of God's plan, it was his time to go, it's all in the grand scheme of things..." etc, etc, bs, etc. How is it God's plan to take away a young man who was engaged with a good accounting job in downtown Chicago?? PLEASE, jesus freaks, explain this to me... because as far as I can tell, cancer is random and so is death. People die because of chance and poor luck. It's not some dude pushing buttons in the sky that turns off your life like a light switch, my cousin had the poor fortune to become sick and he passed. NOTHING beneficial happened from his death, it only ruined lives and made things a lot worse. If I have God to thank for all of the bad things in the world, then he sucks. 

The Problem of Evil has been one of the greatest areas of debate and confusion.  It is based on three premises:
1) God is good
2) God is in control of all things
3) Evil exists

People ask, "If God exists and is good and in control of all things, then how come evil exists?"
They form the following conclusions:
1) God is in control but he is not good (some forms of Agnosticism)
2) God is in good but not in control
3) Evil is an illusion (Hinduism, Christian Scientist)
4) God does not exist (Atheist)
5) God is good, in control, evil exists, and God has some purpose for evil, sometimes we can understand why but for the most part it remains a mystery (Christianity)

Personally, I believe in #5

Pain, evil, and suffering are a difficult thing to accept.  My cousin died in college.  He was a good guy, hard-working, helped out those in need, etc.  Why did he have to die?  Honestly, I don't know.  There is not easy answer to this question.

 

[the yes guy]

I just realized I'd always been pretending to believe.

 

[the yes guy]

I just realized I'd always been pretending to believe.

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by acts65

5) God is good, in control, evil exists, and God has some purpose for evil, sometimes we can understand why but for the most part it remains a mystery (Christianity)

Personally, I believe in #5

Pain, evil, and suffering are a difficult thing to accept.  My cousin died in college.  He was a good guy, hard-working, helped out those in need, etc.  Why did he have to die?  Honestly, I don't know.  There is not easy answer to this question.

But isn't the basis of institutionalized religions to install morality and lead the way of life for the good life? If God is good and in control, then to what extent? When can he or does he intervene in life of humans? Why allow some good people to die such horrible and tragic deaths?

God has purpose for evil? So God created everything, right?Then he did create evil. So God creates and allows maliciousness, evilness,rape,murders,etc. all the while telling us not to commit such sins? Where's God's morality?

You say you can't explain it.I just think it is just all so illogical.

  

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by acts65

5) God is good, in control, evil exists, and God has some purpose for evil, sometimes we can understand why but for the most part it remains a mystery (Christianity)

Personally, I believe in #5

Pain, evil, and suffering are a difficult thing to accept.  My cousin died in college.  He was a good guy, hard-working, helped out those in need, etc.  Why did he have to die?  Honestly, I don't know.  There is not easy answer to this question.

But isn't the basis of institutionalized religions to install morality and lead the way of life for the good life? If God is good and in control, then to what extent? When can he or does he intervene in life of humans? Why allow some good people to die such horrible and tragic deaths?

God has purpose for evil? So God created everything, right?Then he did create evil. So God creates and allows maliciousness, evilness,rape,murders,etc. all the while telling us not to commit such sins? Where's God's morality?

You say you can't explain it.I just think it is just all so illogical.

  

 

[ramzs8906]

Hazeleyed Honey

Well... I don't have all the answers... But I can only speak from my personal beliefs.

As far as people praying that loved ones didn't die, I can't explain it. And I'm speaking from the position of someone who has lost loved ones. I guess for myself, where my faith is concerned, part of my belief is that I will one day see them again. Some may call it delusional. I see it as optimistic. Like I said, I can't tell anyone else what they should believe.

I'm not saying that many Athiest are pessimistic because they don't believe in the afterlife. Many of the ones that I have met (small amount of many) seem to look at life as a glass half empty more than half full... along the lines of the "Life's a B!tch... and then you die" belief. I just refuse to live my life that way.

As far as tens of thousands of religions... well, I was raised to believe that people are not faulted due to ignorance. For example, if someone was never exposed to a belief in a higher power, I personally don't believe God faults them for it. I do not believe in this misconception that their is an "Ultimate religion." Thats the reason I left the Catholic Church. I believe that what we are taught to believe in has been diluted as time has progressed so we don't get everything as we are intended. 

I believe in one God, and that the same God I believe in is also known as Yahweh and Allah. I believe there is not just one way to get to Heaven. But more importantly, I believe its better to believe i  something higher than your brain can comprehend than to not believe in anything at all because...

All I know, Is I know Nothing - Socrates

 

[ramzs8906]

Hazeleyed Honey

Well... I don't have all the answers... But I can only speak from my personal beliefs.

As far as people praying that loved ones didn't die, I can't explain it. And I'm speaking from the position of someone who has lost loved ones. I guess for myself, where my faith is concerned, part of my belief is that I will one day see them again. Some may call it delusional. I see it as optimistic. Like I said, I can't tell anyone else what they should believe.

I'm not saying that many Athiest are pessimistic because they don't believe in the afterlife. Many of the ones that I have met (small amount of many) seem to look at life as a glass half empty more than half full... along the lines of the "Life's a B!tch... and then you die" belief. I just refuse to live my life that way.

As far as tens of thousands of religions... well, I was raised to believe that people are not faulted due to ignorance. For example, if someone was never exposed to a belief in a higher power, I personally don't believe God faults them for it. I do not believe in this misconception that their is an "Ultimate religion." Thats the reason I left the Catholic Church. I believe that what we are taught to believe in has been diluted as time has progressed so we don't get everything as we are intended. 

I believe in one God, and that the same God I believe in is also known as Yahweh and Allah. I believe there is not just one way to get to Heaven. But more importantly, I believe its better to believe i  something higher than your brain can comprehend than to not believe in anything at all because...

All I know, Is I know Nothing - Socrates

 

[ramzs8906]

Hazeleyed Honey wrote:

You say you can't explain it. I just think it is just all so illogical.   

Serious question: Is everything explainable to you? For something to be beyond your grasp of logic does that mean it doesn't exist, or is it simply your way of saying because it doesn't make sense to you then it can't make sense?
And I mean that without any sarcasm.

 

[ramzs8906]

Hazeleyed Honey wrote:

You say you can't explain it. I just think it is just all so illogical.   

Serious question: Is everything explainable to you? For something to be beyond your grasp of logic does that mean it doesn't exist, or is it simply your way of saying because it doesn't make sense to you then it can't make sense?
And I mean that without any sarcasm.

 

[nicapino]

The BIBLE is the highest selling FICTION book of all time. Basically it is NOT based on facts. whoever owns copyrights to the bible is $$$$BALLIN$$$$.

 

[nicapino]

The BIBLE is the highest selling FICTION book of all time. Basically it is NOT based on facts. whoever owns copyrights to the bible is $$$$BALLIN$$$$.

 

[0cks]

I think the problem with Atheist is that they love life so much. IMO what we "experience" now is just being in the womb, it's not "reality". NDE's have shown that the bright light leads somewhere...

 

[0cks]

I think the problem with Atheist is that they love life so much. IMO what we "experience" now is just being in the womb, it's not "reality". NDE's have shown that the bright light leads somewhere...

 

[acts65]

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Originally Posted by acts65

5) God is good, in control, evil exists, and God has some purpose for evil, sometimes we can understand why but for the most part it remains a mystery (Christianity)

Personally, I believe in #5

Pain, evil, and suffering are a difficult thing to accept.  My cousin died in college.  He was a good guy, hard-working, helped out those in need, etc.  Why did he have to die?  Honestly, I don't know.  There is not easy answer to this question.

But isn't the basis of institutionalized religions to install morality and lead the way of life for the good life? If God is good and in control, then to what extent? When can he or does he intervene in life of humans? Why allow some good people to die such horrible and tragic deaths?

God has purpose for evil? So God created everything, right?Then he did create evil. So God creates and allows maliciousness, evilness,rape,murders,etc. all the while telling us not to commit such sins? Where's God's morality?

You say you can't explain it.I just think it is just all so illogical.  

I think to say that the basis of all institutionalized religion is to install morality and lead the way of life for the good life is oversimplifying and generalizing it.  As a Christian, I certainly want to live a life in obedience to how Jesus and the Bible's instruction, however, salvation is not by living a good and moral life, but rather in faith by grace, recognizing my sin and weaknesses and Christ's perfect life, death on the cross and resurrection.  As a result of my belief in Christ, I would seek to live a life in obedience to Him.  But yes, in some ways, you can say religion installs morality and a way of life for the good life... but I believe there is more to it than that.

I believe God is good and in control to the fullest extent.  Jesus Christ is the ultimate example of God's intervention with man, such that He sees the chaos, evil, pain, and suffering as a result of man's wickedness and sin, and sends His Son to die a provide a means of salvation from this world.

God has a purpose for evil.  He created all things.  My understanding of it is that God created all things, including man.  He created man with the ability to choose between good and evil.  Man chose evil and the world we have today is the consequence of that decision.  Man is responsible but wants to shift the blame to God.

As previously stated, most of the time we don't understand God's purpose for evil, but there are examples in the Bible that seek to explain it... one example in the Bible is the life of Joseph... his brothers are jealous of him, sell him into slavery.. but eventually Joseph becomes Pharaoh's right hand man and God is able to use him to prepare for the famine..  an example when it is unclear is when Job goes through all the suffering... God never explains to him why, but clearly God had a purpose for it...  so yea... I say hard to explain... you say illogical... I think it can go either way (in that I understand why you would say that it is illogical.

Quick question about your question about why bad stuff happens to good people.  How do you define "good"?  At what point does someone go from being defined as "good" to "bad"?  What is the standard and line?

 

[acts65]

Originally Posted by Hazeleyed Honey

Originally Posted by acts65

5) God is good, in control, evil exists, and God has some purpose for evil, sometimes we can understand why but for the most part it remains a mystery (Christianity)

Personally, I believe in #5

Pain, evil, and suffering are a difficult thing to accept.  My cousin died in college.  He was a good guy, hard-working, helped out those in need, etc.  Why did he have to die?  Honestly, I don't know.  There is not easy answer to this question.

But isn't the basis of institutionalized religions to install morality and lead the way of life for the good life? If God is good and in control, then to what extent? When can he or does he intervene in life of humans? Why allow some good people to die such horrible and tragic deaths?

God has purpose for evil? So God created everything, right?Then he did create evil. So God creates and allows maliciousness, evilness,rape,murders,etc. all the while telling us not to commit such sins? Where's God's morality?

You say you can't explain it.I just think it is just all so illogical.  

I think to say that the basis of all institutionalized religion is to install morality and lead the way of life for the good life is oversimplifying and generalizing it.  As a Christian, I certainly want to live a life in obedience to how Jesus and the Bible's instruction, however, salvation is not by living a good and moral life, but rather in faith by grace, recognizing my sin and weaknesses and Christ's perfect life, death on the cross and resurrection.  As a result of my belief in Christ, I would seek to live a life in obedience to Him.  But yes, in some ways, you can say religion installs morality and a way of life for the good life... but I believe there is more to it than that.

I believe God is good and in control to the fullest extent.  Jesus Christ is the ultimate example of God's intervention with man, such that He sees the chaos, evil, pain, and suffering as a result of man's wickedness and sin, and sends His Son to die a provide a means of salvation from this world.

God has a purpose for evil.  He created all things.  My understanding of it is that God created all things, including man.  He created man with the ability to choose between good and evil.  Man chose evil and the world we have today is the consequence of that decision.  Man is responsible but wants to shift the blame to God.

As previously stated, most of the time we don't understand God's purpose for evil, but there are examples in the Bible that seek to explain it... one example in the Bible is the life of Joseph... his brothers are jealous of him, sell him into slavery.. but eventually Joseph becomes Pharaoh's right hand man and God is able to use him to prepare for the famine..  an example when it is unclear is when Job goes through all the suffering... God never explains to him why, but clearly God had a purpose for it...  so yea... I say hard to explain... you say illogical... I think it can go either way (in that I understand why you would say that it is illogical.

Quick question about your question about why bad stuff happens to good people.  How do you define "good"?  At what point does someone go from being defined as "good" to "bad"?  What is the standard and line?

 

[brettthejett]

As a kid they told me if I did something wrong I'd burn in hell for ever.

Seems like pretty crappy way to live right? Because.. I mean, the guy WILL forgive you as long as you go talk to a priest.

BTW why do you guys confess your sins to a priest.

makes absolutely no sense.


Oh, and for every miracle where someone says "NOW TELL ME THERE AINT NO GOD AFTER SEEING THAT", there is a natural disaster, terrorist attack, and 1.5 million kids die from bad water and no food in developing countries.

Your god seems lke a show boat power hungry jerk

I'm too much of a realist to put up with that

 

[brettthejett]

As a kid they told me if I did something wrong I'd burn in hell for ever.

Seems like pretty crappy way to live right? Because.. I mean, the guy WILL forgive you as long as you go talk to a priest.

BTW why do you guys confess your sins to a priest.

makes absolutely no sense.


Oh, and for every miracle where someone says "NOW TELL ME THERE AINT NO GOD AFTER SEEING THAT", there is a natural disaster, terrorist attack, and 1.5 million kids die from bad water and no food in developing countries.

Your god seems lke a show boat power hungry jerk

I'm too much of a realist to put up with that

 

[acts65]

Originally Posted by nicapino

The BIBLE is the highest selling FICTION book of all time. Basically it is NOT based on facts. whoever owns copyrights to the bible is $$$$BALLIN$$$$.

It is easy to make a statement like yours but please explain why you say it so that you can contribute to the discussion... is it because of the "supernatural" stuff that occurs? because the teaching that it contains? what brought you to that conclusion?

 

[acts65]

Originally Posted by nicapino

The BIBLE is the highest selling FICTION book of all time. Basically it is NOT based on facts. whoever owns copyrights to the bible is $$$$BALLIN$$$$.

It is easy to make a statement like yours but please explain why you say it so that you can contribute to the discussion... is it because of the "supernatural" stuff that occurs? because the teaching that it contains? what brought you to that conclusion?

 

[acts65]

Originally Posted by brettTHEjett

As a kid they told me if I did something wrong I'd burn in hell for ever.

Seems like pretty crappy way to live right? Because.. I mean, the guy WILL forgive you as long as you go talk to a priest.

BTW why do you guys confess your sins to a priest.

makes absolutely no sense.


Oh, and for every miracle where someone says "NOW TELL ME THERE AINT NO GOD AFTER SEEING THAT", there is a natural disaster, terrorist attack, and 1.5 million kids die from bad water and no food in developing countries.

Your god seems lke a show boat power hungry jerk

I'm too much of a realist to put up with that

As a kid they told you if you did something wrong you would burn in hell forever... did they also explain how you could avoid it?  Confessing your sins to a priest is a Catholic thing and is not found in the Bible.
I agree that it seems lopsided when people attribute all the good things to God and make no attempt to explain all the suffering in the world.

 

[acts65]

Originally Posted by brettTHEjett

As a kid they told me if I did something wrong I'd burn in hell for ever.

Seems like pretty crappy way to live right? Because.. I mean, the guy WILL forgive you as long as you go talk to a priest.

BTW why do you guys confess your sins to a priest.

makes absolutely no sense.


Oh, and for every miracle where someone says "NOW TELL ME THERE AINT NO GOD AFTER SEEING THAT", there is a natural disaster, terrorist attack, and 1.5 million kids die from bad water and no food in developing countries.

Your god seems lke a show boat power hungry jerk

I'm too much of a realist to put up with that

As a kid they told you if you did something wrong you would burn in hell forever... did they also explain how you could avoid it?  Confessing your sins to a priest is a Catholic thing and is not found in the Bible.
I agree that it seems lopsided when people attribute all the good things to God and make no attempt to explain all the suffering in the world.

 

[stockholm patriot]