How Do You Feel Comfortable Celebrating the 4th of July If You're Black?

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hennessy hennessy

1. Why is it so important to you that the flag, " can be reclaimed as a symbol for America?" Why does it matter at ALL to you? You keep defending this flag man. :lol: - If I never saw another Flag in my life, I would be FINE and wouldn't miss a beat.

2. What exactly WAS the flag's reputation before it was "hijacked?" Please be specific.
 

Nouss

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Dude has it reversed. Trump didnt change how the flag is viewed. He joined that right wing ultra conservative contingent that loves overzealous displays of nationalism. Those folks were always there and some of us have always associated the flag with those type of people. Long before Trump, long before Kaep.

I always say that in America, theres a very thin line between nationalism and fascism.
 
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hennessy hennessy

1. Why is it so important to you that the flag, " can be reclaimed as a symbol for America?" Why does it matter at ALL to you? You keep defending this flag man. :lol: - If I never saw another Flag in my life, I would be FINE and wouldn't miss a beat.

2. What exactly WAS the flag's reputation before it was "hijacked?" Please be specific.

1. Our flag, the symbol of our country, is important to ANYONE living in America. We wouldn’t be having this convo if it wasn’t. You understand the I’m not pressed on waving the flag dude I just wanna make sure my shorts are kosher. As shallow as it is, that was my main concern when I initially posted :lol: My focus isn’t on preserving the current design. Macy Gray recommended a new flag design and I’m not opposed to it. A new flag would be dope. I do feel that having a flag to represent our country. If we lived in a world without flags, I think you would definitely miss some beats. Do you enjoy the concept of the olympics? Different countries competing against each other in sport? How would we differentiate the field without flags. Every sports team you root for, has a flag (mascot).

2. I’d really have to think about the is more. Because I only ever thought of it from my POV. You definitely opened my eyes and have made me try to understand what it means to other groups of people. One things for sure though, I feel differently about it after Trump presidency.
 
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Dude has it reversed. Trump didnt change how the flag is viewed. He joined that right wing ultra conservative contingent that loves overzealous displays of nationalism. Those folks were always there and some of us have always associated the flag with those type of people. Long before Trump, long before Kaep.

I always say that in America, theres a very thin line between nationalism and fascism.

True.
 
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America is built on racism though. From stealing land from indigenous ppl, to the enslavement of Black ppl, Jim Crow, the unchecked capitalism that exploits Black and Brown ppl, etc. You can reclaim or rebrand the flag all you want, but don’t expect Black ppl to suddenly be waving it around or telling people how proud we are to be Americans :lol:

We just live here man. Most don’t have the means to go anywhere else so we just tryna make the best out of this situation.
 
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1. Our flag, the symbol of our country, is important to ANYONE living in America. W

2. I think you would definitely miss some beats. Do you enjoy the concept of the olympics? Different countries competing against each other in sport? How would we differentiate the field without flags. Every sports team you root for, has a flag (mascot).

3. very sports team you root for, has a flag (mascot).

1. Lies. I don't care about the flag. I am an "anyone" and it isn't important to me.

2. I enjoy the Olympics. Teams listed/presented with the text of the teams would be fine with me man. The absence of the flag or the display of a flag wouldn't affect my viewing experience. Not sure why you thought it would.

3. The conversation is about how EYE feel about the US flag. We aren't talking about Mascots/Symbols/Flags (Team) in GENERAL. My claim is MANY people don't give TWO damns about the US Flag.
 
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America is built on racism though. From stealing land from indigenous ppl, to the enslavement of Black ppl, Jim Crow, the unchecked capitalism that exploits Black and Brown ppl, etc. You can reclaim or rebrand the flag all you want, but don’t expect Black ppl to suddenly be waving it around or telling people how proud we are to be Americans :lol:

We just live here man. Most don’t have the means to go anywhere else so we just tryna make the best out of this situation.

every letter.
 
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my guy's post deserved its own double platform, but let's really crank up the microscope here...the entire edifice of power on which the United States of America rests is fundamentally illegitimate and borderline offensive just as a fact of everyday life.

each of its major assets stolen, all of its unconscionably massive resources filtered through blood.

major events in US history include:

-a France/Spain-backed revolution against Britain which gained full independence for land-owning white men only.

-two or three separate genocides. lots of strangely Mexican and Native-sounding US place-names give up game on that.

-entire industries built on centuries of coercive labor. rape, mutilation, murder, destruction of records. the profits exist today.

-forceful suppression of nonwhite-dominant societies worldwide. from Haiti then to Palestine now, and Cuba along the way.

-the ****ing AIRPLANE being invented before women ever got to vote for anything in this country.

-people dying in the streets for their (and your) right to a weekend. cops did the killing, too.

-openly gouging their "Allies" to seize THEIR (violent, colonial) military bases around the world during World War II.

-fighting the greatest war in history with black soldiers, then still expecting them to come home and suck on segregation.

-going as far as the Moon with a racist, warfaring space program.


Independence Day, my black ***.
 
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Present

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America is built on pride & greed.

Capitalism, Racism, Sexism, Classism, etc are all just a means to an end.

Useful tools in the hands of architects.

 
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in my experience, most civilians who bring out a flag in a country they already live in is either siding with an oppressor or a rebel. There’s absolutely no other reason to remind us of where we all live in other than to make some type of political statement, and more often than not, it’s a threat or show of dominance. “Remember whose country you’re in” type of vibe
True.
I hope that we can reclaim the flag as a symbol for America. Just how Trump didn’t say or do anything to stop the insurrection, he never made a statement condemning those people that highjacked our flag for their own divisive uses. Like I said before, Trump has stained the flag. And he’s allowed other groups to do the same, because they supported him.
I don't think me showing up at work with the version of the US flag with the panafrican colors on it would go as well as my conservative coworkers rocking a tee with the thin blue line version of the flag. They get a pass, but my tee would be called "subversive" and "problematic."
That is to say, Trump was the catalyst for overt jingoism, and catalysts are ineffective when there's nothing in the mix to be accelerated.

Anytime minorities in this country have claimed the American flag (and the ideals it represents) in ways that do not result in explicit and/or immediate benefits for the White majority, the backlash has been swift; in contrast, Far-Right wingers/Dixiecrats/Segregationists/Slavers have always enjoyed the ability to reshape the flag to match their beliefs with no push back from society at large (which was understandable back when "society at large" basically meant white people, as they made up about 90% of the population 60 years ago).

Now, as minority voices have grown louder in the last 20 years (culminating with the unthinkable - a black president with a Muslim name :lol:), we can see how the backlash has manifested itself in the Tea Party movement, the gutting of the Voting Rights Act, the election of Trump, and the attempt to keep him in power by circumventing the constitution. Furthermore, the GOP plan to control enough statehouses to trigger a constitutional convention and rewrite the constitution is well under way, as they control just under half of the state legislatures and governor mansions (23 IIRC).

The thing is that nowadays, the demographics are not quite in their favor: White people will still be the largest group in the next 20-30 years, but they will no longer constitute the majority of the country. In such an environment, it is becoming harder for the GOP and its affiliates to impose their understanding of the country symbols on rest of the population, and without a dialogue in good faith about the history of this country and the meaning of its symbols (something the conservative leadership is still not willing to partake in) we will have plenty of instability in the coming years.

IMO, the saving grace of this country is that, excluding Native Americans, ethnicity/race is not yet strongly tied to particular regions of the country. I'll be worried when all those KKK dudes moving to Idaho decide to create a new language to avoid the AAVE corruption of the English language and start teaching it in their local schools.
 
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-two or three separate genocides. lots of strangely Mexican and Native-sounding US place-names give up game on that.
I recently came across a question on r/Askhistorians about how Native Americans approached land ownership and trade. One particular aspect of the answer got my attention: the Discovery Doctrine ( which was also used in the Middle East and in Africa - pay attention the next time someone tells you that the land was unoccupied when Dutch and French settlers landed on the Cape of Good Hope, or that there was nothing West of the Mississippi river).



This is part 2 of 4 of the answer, but all the 3 other parts were very informative, especially on the extent of the trade networks in pre-Colombus America and how American diplomats conducted negotiations with Native leaders (and the extent to which they understood each other).
 
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1. Lies. I don't care about the flag. I am an "anyone" and it isn't important to me.

2. I enjoy the Olympics. Teams listed/presented with the text of the teams would be fine with me man. The absence of the flag or the display of a flag wouldn't affect my viewing experience. Not sure why you thought it would.

3. The conversation is about how EYE feel about the US flag. We aren't talking about Mascots/Symbols/Flags (Team) in GENERAL. My claim is MANY people don't give TWO damns about the US Flag.

Ok. Appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the flag. Was a thought provoking discussion for me. I’ll definitely keep what I learned today in mind when thinking about the flag in the future. Tbh… thought I was in the clear but now I’m conflicted on these shorts again :lol:
 
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You can always just remove the flag you know...

Or put another patch over it
 
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Nobody cared about the flag just like nobody cared about the national anthem until dudes started taking a knee. Before then the national anthem was just a good time to take a piss. All this abuse of symbolism is just BS ways to say KKK without getting looked at funny. Just like the “war in drugs” and the trump slogan of “law and order”.
 
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Idk what defines celebrating Independence

This is just another day off to enjoy time with my family and friends over drinks, BBQ and maybe a game of bones.

We celebrate each other on days like this. That's about it


/thread. they can have another federal holiday called freedom day. idc about any of that. but it would be another day off to link up and kick it. that's all I care about.
 
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You can always just remove the flag you know...

Or put another patch over it

Yeah I might. It’s actually just a small piece of the American flag that patches a ripped area of the shorts. It’s not screaming America at all. The brand has come out with the same shorts since but used a different cloth instead of the american flag, and it looks dope. Maybe I will stitch something else over it.
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hennessy hennessy

You've had 3 hours+ to think about it.

What prestige did the flag have before Trump?

What needs to be reclaimed?

Believe it or not I’ve been focused on work and not replying to this thread :lol: I like the points you raised and thanked you for participating in the discussion with me. Again, this is really about my pants as I barely give two damns about the flag either.

I’ll try to answer your question though. I haven’t thought much on the prestige the flag had before trump. Aside from representing us in war, the olympics, and (related to war) I mentioned earlier how when 9/11 happened I felt like most Americans wanted to rep the flag to unite against the war on terror. TBH I never really thought of it as good or bad before Trump. Was just the American flag to me and I’m American so I always repped it. It’s been ingrained since I was a kid. Never really questioned it and never considered your POV until now. I always was proud of the American flag until Trump was president. And I guess that’s what I felt needed to be reclaimed. Any semblance of pride for the flag. Instead of trying to reclaim that maybe I should’ve just looked deeper into it’s history and dismissed it completely like you have. Idk man.


Now you’re saying some people have NEVER been a fan of the flag so there is nothing to reclaim. I understand that a little better now. It’s something I never considered.

I hope I haven’t offended you I’m trying to understand where you’re coming from. Think I get it a little better now.
 

RustyShackleford

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I am sympathetic to the argument that America is an idea, and a country whose people are in a near-constant war between those who what America to be strictly a country for white Christians, and Americans who want the country to be a multiracial multicultural democracy. Each group wants the flag to represent something different. But one group has used the American flag way more to represent their cause.

Trump wasn't the thing that caused racial polarization around the American flag. Like any other form of racial resentment, it was there and he just made more of it rise to the surface. I remember when Obama got into office, white nationalists calling them themselves the Tea Party was protesting in downtown DC shortly after the first black president got sworn it. They were calling him all kinds of n-word, monkey, claiming they were going to take back their country and.....they were flying the American flag proudly.

Bush also did a bunch too, because conservatives used the flag in their Iraq War propaganda. People were down to go after the Taliban, but folk forget neocons used this to push a BS war in Iraq. And when folk pushed back, they were hit with a large dose of "why aren't you supporting American" ****ery. Remember Freedom fries because they were mad the French didn't sign up for the nonsense? I mean look at the banner here...
GQV5TTR76YI6RFQBTHKUNPXYAY.jpg


Ole boy convinced a Nation to let him piss away trillions on a nonsense war that turned into a cluster**** because folk were being shamed by for not being "patriots" and supporting the flag.

So most young adults in this country have seen the flag used by bad actors to symbolize some of the worse aspects of American life. Racism and war-mongering.

White supremacists have been using it long before him...
Klan-Rally-1925.jpg


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Throughout History white people have also used the flag as a cudgel to beat back any dissent from minority groups for equal rights. Warmongers have used it to shame those who don't support the American war machine raging overseas.

The American flag can be used by groups that want to push America to toward a more progressive equitable society, it can be used by people that want to celebrate the moments of good that has happened in this country, it can be used as a symbol to represent a multinational, multicultural society. It can be those things.

But

The American flag more often has also been used as a symbol of white supremacy. We have a long history of this. So a white person not being able to see why some black people might have an aversion to it just comes as privilege to me. Whenever I hear a self-proclaimed liberal white person talk about the flag as "our flag", the first thing I ask them is who is included in the "our".
 
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I am sympathetic to the argument that America is an idea, and a country whose people are in a near-constant war between those who what America to be strictly a country for white Christians, and Americans who want the country to be a multiracial multicultural democracy. Each group wants the flag to represent something different. But one group has used the American flag way more to represent their cause.

Trump wasn't the thing that caused racial polarization around the American flag. Like any other form of racial resentment, it was there and he just made more of it rise to the surface. But I remember when Obama got into office, white nationalists calling them themselves the Tea Party was protesting in downtown DC shortly after the first black president got sworn it. They were calling him all kinds of n-word, monkey, claiming they were going to take back their country and.....they were flying the American flag proudly.

Bush also did a bunch too, because conservatives used the flag in their Iraq War propaganda. So most young adults in this country have seen the flag used by bad actors to symbolize some of the worse aspects of American life. Racism and war-mongering.

White supremacists have been using it long before him...
Klan-Rally-1925.jpg


C2_1_updated.jpg


Throughout History white people have also used the flag as a cudgel to beat back any dissent from minority groups for equal rights. Warmongers have used it to shame those who don't support the American war machine raging overseas, most recently like Bush and Iraq war supporters.

The American flag can be used by groups that want to push America to toward a more progressive equitable society, it can be used by people that want to celebrate the moments of good that has happened in this country, it can be used as a symbol to represent a multinational, multicultural society. It can be those things.

But

The American flag more often has also been used as a symbol of white supremacy. We have a long history of this. So a white person not being able to see why some black people might have an aversion to it just comes as privilege to me. Whenever I hear a self-proclaimed liberal white person talk about the flag as "our flag", the first thing I ask them is who is included in the "our".

Solid post. Very well put.

If I came off privileged, I can now see why. But I was never posting in this thread to belittle anyone or change their views on the flag. I came in here for a discussion to better understand how people felt about the flag and why. Symbols can be interpreted different ways. Swastika once was a sign for good and then Hitler came. I learned a lot and I thank y’all for having the discussion with me.
 

RustyShackleford

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The core issue is that many black people will not see the flag and a symbol of a multiracial, multiethnic, multicultural country while most people in the biggest racial group in America are claiming the flag is a symbol of white supremacy.

And that has been the case for quite a while
 
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It's a tricky thing, but it seems to me every country has symbolic lies it tells. some more harmful than others.

People in Canada were saying we should "cancel canada day" because of the mass graves of indigenous children recently discovered.
and I remember reading an article where someone said

we need to get rid of this myth of canadians being a country of ultra nice,/accommodating people.


I think the myth is mostly good.
It's good that white canadians think of them as ultra nice and accommodating.

because it allows you to appeal to national identity when Canada falls short of the mythic self conception.
 
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It's a tricky thing, but it seems to me every country has symbolic lies it tells. some more harmful than others.

People in Canada were saying we should "cancel canada day" because of the mass graves of indigenous children recently discovered.
and I remember reading an article where someone said

we need to get rid of this myth of canadians being a country of ultra nice,/accommodating people.


I think the myth is mostly good.
It's good that white canadians think of them as ultra nice and accommodating.

because it allows you to appeal to national identity when Canada falls short of the mythic self conception.
The difference is Americans are loud and proud and will tell you exactly why they dont like you.

Canadians do it the British way. Covertly.
 
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