Official DragonBall Z Thread. R.I.P Akira Toriyama. You will be missed

Rico x Hood said:
Explain why Goku only used Ssj3 to fight with Future Trunks, Ssj2 to fight with present Zamasau, and didn't even bother to transform to fight "Monaka".

I love DB Super but the show is clearly not making sense at this point.
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Whats there not to make sense? how many forms does goku have at his disposal? goku has transformations like NTers have shoes. Whats the problem with him chosing to fight in whatver form he feels like? we know their sparring match only happened because go said he wants to see where he stacks up to black. trunks says black is stronger than ssj2 so goku says "ill be stronger too" and transforms furter. other than that goku uses the form he wants to feel out his opponent in. the only time id start having questions is the scalling is completely off. like if someone beats goku in ssb and then is beaten by lets say goten, then you can be confused. other than that chalk it up to creative freedom and be happy its not contradicting anything previously established.
 
The point of transforming is to get stronger to defeat your opponent. This has always been the case. So based off the transformation you got the impression that the opponent was insanely stronger.

Goku started fighting 17 as a super saiyan and transformed to Blue. Any seasoned dbz fan would take that to mean that 17 is a lot stronger than regular ssj, which we've all agreed is already insanely powerful due to Goku's base being stronger. And then you have 17 not getting absolutely washed by SSJB Goku? That would lead one to believe that 17 is on par with SSJB Goku, which is completely ridiculous and that's why people are mad.


You say chalk it up to personality or creative license, but DB Super Goku does wash people when sparring. He manhandled Future Trunks and Present Zamasau. It was made clear that he was much stronger. So once again that fight made no sense.

The only time until the tournament that we should ever see Blue is if he's training or fighting with Whis, Beerus, Vegeta, or Hit.
 
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Rico x Hood said:
The point of transforming is to get stronger to defeat your opponent. This has always been the case. So based off the transformation you got the impression that the opponent was insanely stronger.

Goku started fighting 17 as a super saiyan and transformed to Blue. Any seasoned dbz fan would take that to mean that 17 is a lot stronger than regular ssj, which we've all agreed is already insanely powerful due to Goku's base being stronger. And then you have 17 not getting absolutely washed by SSJB Goku? That would lead one to believe that 17 is on par with SSJB Goku. Which is completely ridiculous and that's why people are mad.


You say chalk it up to personality, but DB Super Goku does wash people when sparring. He manhandled Future Trunks and Present Zamasau. It was made clear that he was much stronger. So once again that fight made no sense.

The only time until the tournament that we should ever see Blue is if he's training or fighting with Whis, Beerus, Vegeta, or Hit.
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Context matters and you can't ignore the nuances. On more than one occasion goku has transformed simply to show that he can. Not every time goku fights is a crisis level scenario. the fight with 17 told me that in the 12+ years of his absence SOMETHING happened, whether it be some kind of training, some kind of enhancement, SOMETHING took place that made him stronger. 12+ years is a long a** time considering freiza went from being revived weaker than 17 by a large margin to being practically stronger than SSB goku. any and all limitations you perceive either of the androids to have are literally placed there by you. We know absolutely nothing about their maximum potential or what happens when they train to make themselves stronger. We know nothing about what has happened or where 17 has been for the past 12+ years aside from the family hes started and becoming a park ranger. People are getting themselves mad because at some point they decided to define the androids potential for growth without any of the source material to back it up. From what I saw im not going to draw any conclusions past the fact 17 is atleast past the weakest level of the SSB threshold. It was stated that they were BOTH holding back but we know for a fact that goku can and does get much stronger than that. As for the last part, i didnt say chalk it up to personality i said chalk it up to creative freedom, as in writer's choice. Chances are a proffesional basket ball player can cross me up whether he's wearing low top beat up vans or the highest end performance basket ball sneakers you can buy if hes facing me, but i bet he'll lace up his best shoes against another professional player. so why does it matter which form he used against trunks or zamasu if he didnt have to be at his absolute best to beat them? Heck he could have even decided to go SSB if he wanted and it wouldnt have made a difference. 

you can be mad once the anime gives an explanation. if they say did the one punch  man workout and now hes as strong as goku, then you can have a problem. 
 
What's Puar up to? At this point he can probly go 1 on 1 with SSB Goku and be fine. If he and Oolong fuse they might be able to take Whis.
 
Goku's SSB just looks watered down now

I know he can go KioKen x SSB but still 

I need a explanation along the lines of this

Goku using his SSB (10% of his power) form as a projection of the power levels of other opponents that are going to be  in the tournament 
 
IhaveAQuestion said:
Goku's SSB just looks watered down now


I know he can go KioKen x SSB but still 


I need a explanation along the lines of this

Goku using his SSB (10% of his power) form as a projection of the power levels of other opponents that are going to be  in the tournament 
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I could get down with that explanation.
 
at the end of the day i think we need to learn more about what the adriods are capable of.

as far as gokus power goes the best analogy ive seen compares to a lamp with different brightness settings. each setting being his base, ssj1, ssj2, ssj3. SSB would be the setting that can fluctuate through all of those settings plus its own more intense brightness.  which kind of simulates ki control.

the only i would change to more accurately fit what toriyama said below is that ssj1 can now freely fluctuate between the settings of ssj1 through ssj3.
Toriyama: Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more
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could go ssb and have been fighting 17 in one of those lower levels, sure. do i personally believe that he was? nope. i think 17 some how or some way got strong as hell and im looking forward to finding out how
 
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I am 100% sure that there will never be an explanation, but I thought the consesus was that SSB is not considered a "higher level" of transformation and is in fact a separate "branch" of SSJ transformations accesible to those with god ki.

If you take that, and and add the fact that Toriyama has decided that a SSJ1 can attain levels comparable to 2 or 3 (making 2 and 3 inefficient and obsolete), then the assumption is as follows:

Goku, who is in posession of god ki, transforms into a SSJ, going "blue". This does not mean that he is exercising even a portion of his true power--he is just flexing his muscles, so to speak.

In weightlifting terms, consider it "low weight, more reps" (fighting 17 and Krillin) as opposed to "more weight, less reps" (fighting Black, Hit, etc)

At least that's my explanation. This **** is convoluted. The original manga was pretty consistent with power levels scaling against other power levels, so I don't want to hear that excuse.
 
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SSB is directly related to power. Thus making it a higher transformation.


[Video][/Video]
 
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i mean the simple fact that he didnt use kaioken shows he wasnt going all out. i just dont see why people have such a big problem with 17 meeting atleast the lowest thresh hold of SSB. especially considering dende talking about how strong he got, goku acknowledging how much strength he has, and even 17 admiting that he hasnt just been sitting around. After all of that why is it easier to say goku must not be using SSB level power when half the episode was tripling down on the fact that 17 has gotten a lot stronger
 
Dunno.

Maybe because SSB is supposed to be godly power and the fact that so many "low level" characters not getting washed in a spar with SSB Goku
 
drewsone said:
Dunno.

Maybe because SSB is supposed to be godly power and the fact that so many "low level" characters not getting washed in a spar with SSB Goku
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SSB means goku has the ability to use godly power. Why is he being looked at side ways for not eradicating his friends? 
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lmao

Idk I wasn't really tripping.

He prob using like 1% SSB vs. Krillain and like 10% vs. 17 or something

Think they're just using SSB as a tool to show that the earthlings won't get completely washed by the other universe fighters
 
Beerus still hasn't used his max power. When he's been fighting SSG Goku, he just gauged his level to match Goku's. So Beerus looks weaker to yall? Y'all know if Beerus used his full strength he could kill Goku with 1 punch, and it would be an undodgeable/unblockable punch at that.

SSB Goku is just doing the same, gauging himself to his opponents.
 
drewsone said:
lmao

Idk I wasn't really tripping.

He prob using like 1% SSB vs. Krillain and like 10% vs. 17 or something

Think they're just using SSB as a tool to show that the earthlings won't get completely washed by the other universe fighters
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keep in mind by that math youve got 17 being only 10times stronger than krillin 
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at the end of the day with the context of the episode it doesnt make any sense for dende hype up 17s strength the way he did, or even goku for that matter. krillin clearly couldnt keep up with goku head to head so strategy is important and he witnessed that and thats why goku is happy to have him on the team, but what justice is goku doing universe 7 recruiting 17 for clearly a powerhouse position if he doesnt atleast halfway test his power?

also im surprised no one brought this up....

Is this potentially a major hint? sounds like popo is implying that while goku has been off deaking with other dimentional/time related stuff 17 has been protecting earth. Maybe "whats been happening on earth" is directly related to how strong 17 has gotten
 
Based on one of the filler episodes a few months ago, why not add Arale in the Universe 7 team? she did wash Vegeta with 1 blow after all, and went head to head with SSB Goku :lol:
 
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