***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[dwalk31]

 

[Cashflow]

 

[IATT]

dwalk31 what did Hillary do in 2016 for you to ignore all the scumbaggery again?

AND then spending years ignoring and defending that behavior until he caught an L

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The thing I find so annoying about the whole “Hillary TRIED to warn us” tropes, is that it was obvious that Trump was a racist, it was obvious that the GOP is monomaniacally focused on controlling the US Federal Courts. We all knew this. Clinton was not a doomed prophet, she was a politician hoping to win purely on negative mobilization in the hopes of having a modest and therefore donor-friendly platform and administration.

It did not work.

She and her supporters should take the same advice you all gave after Bernie Sanders was defeated such as “take this L,” “you need to reassess,” and “it’s time for introspection.”

It’s five years on and the consensus take on Clinton’s campaign is that it didn’t fail, it was failed.

The irony is even richer because she lost largely for the same reason that Sanders lost his bid for the Presidency, neither turned out enough black voters in the States that they needed to win. Sanders’ failure is seen as evidence latent white supremacy on the part of him and his supporters and yet, no sinister motives are attached to Clinton’s failures.

All that said, Clinton did get three million more votes than Trump. She was robbed but not by Susan Sarandon, she was robbed by an anti-majoritarian political order. I would describe that order as broken but truthfully, it’s working as intended.

By all means, let’s fight fascism at the ballot box as best we can. But it’s painfully clear, or it should be painfully clear that this existing order has got to go. If we stay in a position where we have to beat the GOP every single time, then the left/liberal/social justice project that we’re currently undertaking is remarkably fragile and we all need to find out how to make it more resilient. I don’t know exactly how to do that but I suspect it will involve a strategy that doesn’t entirely depend on voting for politicians whose will to win is tempered by a desire to placate moneyed interest who benefit from this current political order.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Hilary was a flawed candidate who ran a bad campaign.
and some leftist behaved in irrational and counter productive ways post 2016 primary.


both things can be true.

 

[dwalk31]

 

[aepps20]

Is this **** is supposed to mean something to me?

It means that libs are toast. ROOOOOOOOOOOKIE LET'S GOOOOOO

 

[wavycrocket]

 

[rexanglorum]

Hilary was a flawed candidate who ran a bad campaign.
and some leftist behaved in irrational and counter productive ways post 2016 primary.


both things can be true.

And despite Clinton running a general election campaign designed to embrace Republicans and distance itself from leftist priorities, we still delivered a ton of support for her and you STILL blame us.

We wanted to beat Trump more than she wanted to beat Trump.

 

[rexanglorum]

Honestly, arguing over 2016 is as fun as arguing Kobe versus LeBron. My main issue here is that I’m not allowed to be mad at voters, who would have benefited from a Bernie Presidency, not even for a few days or weeks. Meanwhile that same standard isn’t applied to those who criticize Those voters who would have benefited from Hillary Clinton beating Trump and did not vote for Clinton.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

And despite Clinton running a general election campaign designed to embrace Republicans and distance itself from leftist priorities, we still delivered a ton of support for her and you STILL blame us.

We wanted to beat Trump more than she wanted to beat Trump.

I didn't blame anyone, I think I was pretty clear.

Hillary was a bad candidate, who ran a bad campaign.

And some leftist behaved in counter productive ways post 2016 primary.

Democrats look crazy when they try to argue the former and leftist look crazy when they try to dispute the latter.

And it's equally crazy to act like 2016 was basically the same stakes as 2020.

 

[rexanglorum]

osh kosh bosh As far as Bernie goes, in retrospect, his losing wasn’t the problem.

The problem is how divorced American politics is from public opinion. If Bernie had won the primary and gone on to win the general and assuming he wasn’t denied the presidency by faithless electors, or federal courts willing to listen to spurious claims of voter fraud, or removed in a preemptive coup, he’d have his agenda stalled by the same forces holding up Biden right now.

I think Bernie would have done more with Executive Orders and fought harder against the Senate. He may have organized protests in DC but capital would win in the end.

Without far more robust organizing, that puts pressure directly on Capital, electing Bernie or any other socialist politician won’t change things

 

[osh kosh bosh]

osh kosh bosh As far as Bernie goes, in retrospect, his losing wasn’t the problem.

The problem is how divorced American politics is from public opinion. If Bernie had won the primary and gone on to win the general and assuming he wasn’t denied the presidency by faithless electors, or federal courts willing to listen to spurious claims of voter fraud, or removed in a preemptive coup, he’d have his agenda stalled by the same forces holding up Biden right now.

I think Bernie would have done more with Executive Orders and fought harder against the Senate. He may have organized protests in DC but capital would win in the end.

Without far more robust organizing, that puts pressure directly on Capital, electing Bernie or any other socialist politician won’t change things

This capital vs labour frame work can be illuminating, but it's often limiting.
It obscures realities about the American electorate.



I see literally zero evidence that Americans want the broad base tax increases
that would come with a Nordic style social safety net.

like literally none at all.
and I see little evidence that Americans want a massive upheaval in the structure of American socitey.

America is a rich country, and a lot of yall seem to like living there.
so this idea that capital is standing between you and nordic socialist utopia I think is fantasy.

The voters are as well.

and one of the biggest frustrations facing young Americans, the housing crisis,
doesn't fall neatly into this captial vs labour framework either.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

 

[RustyShackleford]

Those tweets are dumb and pointless

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Those tweets are dumb and pointless

well you won't be surprised to find out
I think they are smart and to the point.

 

[RustyShackleford]

well you won't be surprised to find out
I think they are smart and to the point.

Of course

A hot take that over inflates the importance of a topic,and distorts what is actually happening just to criticize Progressives seems like something you would love.

Sorry for spoiling your fun

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Of course

A hot take that over inflates the importance of a topic, and distorts what is actually happening just to criticize Progressives seems like something you would love.

Sorry for spoiling your fun

The tweets didn't make any value judgment on how important or not the phraseology drama is or isn't'

it's merely an observation on how quickly corporations adopted the language.
and then a joke/criticism at the expense of a certain kind of progressive.

i don't really see what's being inflated or distorted.

 

[RustyShackleford]

The tweets didn't make any value judgment on how important or not the phraseology drama is or isn't'

it's merely an observation on how quickly corporations adopted the language.
and then a joke/criticism at the expense of a certain kind of progressive.

i don't really see what's being inflated or distorted.

You either think I don't have or know how to use Google on my PC.

Before I checked, I knew what happened to motivate those tweets, a Politico article that just dropped.

I doubled checked before I made my first post regarding the tweets and I was right.

He is responding to the Politico article. Which deals with the words and how it affects Dems prospects with voters...

You also didn't include the entire Twitter thread.






So yeah Osh, in context it doesn't seem like it is just a take on corporations adopting a certain language, and a joke about a certain type of progressive.

It went beyond that. It even passed judgment on the words themselves

-And I know what is coming now. Your transition to, "oh yeah, I think it hurts Democrats too" steez

 

[elpablo21]

 

[rexanglorum]

This capital vs labour frame work can be illuminating, but it's often limiting.
It obscures realities about the American electorate.



I see literally zero evidence that Americans want the broad base tax increases
that would come with a Nordic style social safety net.

like literally none at all.
and I see little evidence that Americans want a massive upheaval in the structure of American socitey.

America is a rich country, and a lot of yall seem to like living there.
so this idea that capital is standing between you and nordic socialist utopia I think is fantasy.

The voters are as well.

and one of the biggest frustrations facing young Americans, the housing crisis,
doesn't fall neatly into this captial vs labour framework either.

First off, I love how you spell labour but since I’m an uncultured American, I’ll spell it without the “u.”

I totally agree that the electorate does not vote as workers, they vote as homeowners, as white people concerned with “crime,” as Christians, as parents concerned with violent video games. Meanwhile, a lot of POC vote as people trying to stave off the worst of white supremacy although a noticeable minority of POC voters, vote as homophobes, transphobes, self-hating POC, and muscle car owners or muscle car owning aspirants.

Bernie’s campaigns got a few of us frequent voters voting as workers or as people desirous of a multi-racial working class coalition to take hold of the State. But since the electorate is overwhelmingly middle-upper class, American voters tend to come to socialism for moral reasons rather than as members of an organized, self-aware working class.

My contention that I make on here, and I apologize for not being clear about this in the past, is that Capital controls the ship of State, the electorate is too middle class and white to challenge that hegemony through the ballot box. IMO what we need is a far more organized working class that both changes the composition of the electorate and is able to have a direct confrontation with capital through sectoral strikes.

Where I have not been clear has been in emphasizing two major corollaries.

1.) I am not saying that capitalism is not the only firm of oppression nor am I establishing a ranking of oppressions with capitalism at the top.

2.) challenging capital with an engaged working class working, on lines of dual power, is not just for the purposes of securing higher wages and better working conditions and an expanded social safety net. Although those things are important. The bigger goal of wresting power from capital is to open up policy options to reduce and eliminate inequality that exists due to white supremacy, patriarchy, ableism, xenophobia, and Empire.

So yes, as it stands right now, even Nordic socialism is a fantasy. With a sufficiently mobilized working class, social democracy becomes an inevitability.

 

[IATT]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

You either think I don't have or know how to use Google on my PC.

Before I checked, I knew what happened to motivate those tweets, a Politico article that just dropped.

I doubled checked before I made my first post regarding the tweets and I was right.

He is responding to the Politico article. Which deals with the words and how it affects Dems prospects with voters...

You also didn't include the entire Twitter thread.






So yeah Osh, in context it doesn't seem like it is just a take on corporations adopting a certain language, and a joke about a certain type of progressive.

It went beyond that. It even passed judgment on the words themselves

-And I know what is coming now. Your transition to, "oh yeah, I think it hurts Democrats too" steez

oh, I hadn't read the politico piece when i posted that. so i didn't realize it was a response to anything.

i didn't include the second tweet because it felt redundant. i didn't think omitting it changed the context.

 

[RustyShackleford]

oh, I hadn't read the politico piece when i posted that. so i didn't realize it was a response to anything.

i didn't include the second tweet because it felt redundant. i didn't think omitting it changed the context.

Whatever, Fair enough

 

[RustyShackleford]

I mostly agree with J.Bouie's point about the whole Latinx thing in the context of Democrats' issues with Latino voters. At the end of the day, it won't make a difference because there are much more powerful forces that are squeezing the Dems. Some they might be able to fight back against, some they might not







Complaining about progressive using certain words in certain situations and the alienating effects it might have on some people might seem like you are addressing a core issue, but really it is punching left for the sake of punching left. People should not use language that alienates their audience in all situations, but fixing that won't do much.