***Official Political Discussion Thread***

dacomeup said:
"Abolitionists" say that Camden isn't a good example, FYI.
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Why?

Edit: I used Camden as an example of radical police reform, not as an example of police abolition. My point is that it took action above the local level to drastically change the culture of law enforcement in that city. The gradual replacement of the police force that osh kosh bosh osh kosh bosh suggested still leaves in place some of the gatekeepers who can still perpetuate the current police culture through selection of hires and training. That approach has a higher potential for failure than a fire-and-replace approach IMO.
 
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gry60 said:
Why?

Edit: I used Camden as an example of radical police reform, not as an example of police abolition. My point is that it took action above the local level to drastically change the culture of law enforcement in that city. The gradual replacement of the police force that osh kosh bosh osh kosh bosh suggested still leaves in place some of the gatekeepers who can still perpetuate the current police culture through selection of hires and training. That approach has a higher potential for failure than a fire-and-replace approach IMO.
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There's a few articles on it being a false misportrayal. I read them a while ago (I think after it being discussed in this thread), so I can't remember what I actually read. I'll drop a few links below.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...t-is-being-misused-debate-over-police-reform/

https://jacobinmag.com/2020/07/camden-new-jersey-police-reform-surveillance

https://www.salon.com/2020/06/13/camden-is-not-a-blueprint-for-disbanding-the-police_partner/
 
RustyShackleford said:
You seriously think LA, San Fran, NYC, DC, Seattle and other deep blue cities are in danger of being lost to the GOP if police reform is tied to rising crime?

Because if you are asking people to consider the political environment, then you are saying this one issue will swing an area by 10-40 points.

Hmmmm, ok. Find that hard to believe though.

But since everyone from Fox News to NYT are already doing that. I guess liberal-controlled cities will mostly turn red in 2021 and 2022.
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Being lost to the gop? no

Reactionary pro police Democrats getting elected in a backlash and undoing any reforms you do enact I think is a risk.
 
osh kosh bosh said:
Being lost to the gop? no

Reactionary pro police Democrats getting elected in a backlash and undoing any reforms you do enact I think is a risk.
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Personal experience - Portland elected the "pro cop" mayor and he's been an abject failure from top to bottom. And this has been since pre-COVID conditions, and before pro-reform discourse. The Portland Police Bureau is a violent right-wing joke of a boys club that's only seen more funding, more lawsuits, and more calls for reform over the past few years.

I havent spoken to a single person, informed or not, that's happy with the mayor and leadership. I would bet this city and others who have seen the same failings the past few years will vote in a Pro-Reform mayor as backlash to the growing rate of violence from the police and citizens alike. Backlash cuts both ways. Let's hope we get the correct reactionary votes next time around.
 
kingfoamnyc said:
1632761554076.png
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this seems like an obvious yes or no question

but as i am not American, I’ll leave it to dwalk31 dwalk31 to give his views
 
osh kosh bosh said:
Being lost to the gop? no

Reactionary pro police Democrats getting elected in a backlash and undoing any reforms you do enact I think is a risk.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but isn't this a goal post-move?

Because it seems like this completely removes the party considerations from local liberals and progressives.

So they shouldn't push policy to make things better, which is being blocked by pro-cop Dems, because it might cause backlash from voters who will vote in elect all pro-cop Dems, that will repeal the little regulations on the books that have proven to be inadequate to keep the police in check.

Like I am not saying progressive should indulge in self-sabotage, but in practice, you are pretty much saying that they should give up on enacting positive change.

Basically progressive need to fight to protect the status quo? That's it.

Uhhh ok.
 
RustyShackleford said:
Sorry, but isn't this a goal post-move?

Because it seems like this completely removes the party considerations from local liberals and progressives.

So they shouldn't push policy to make things better, which is being blocked by pro-cop Dems, because it might cause backlash from voters who will vote in elect all pro-cop Dems, that will repeal the little regulations on the books that have proven to be inadequate to keep the police in check.

Like I am not saying progressive should indulge in self-sabotage, but in practice, you are pretty much saying that they should give up on enacting positive change.

Basically progressive need to fight to protect the status quo? That's it.

Uhhh ok.
Click to expand...

I don't think I said that at all

I said they should push to make things better in a politically durable way.

instituting accountability reforms without targeted investments for crime reduction and solving is imo not politically durable.

using activist rhetoric around police issues like defund, abolish or purge or whatever is not politically durable and only empowers police unions.


thankfully "defund the police" has been pretty thoroughly exposed that most people and politicians have dropped it totally.
 
osh kosh bosh said:
I don't think I said that at all

I said they should push to make things better in a politically durable way.

instituting accountability reforms without targeted investments for crime reduction and solving is imo not politically durable.

using activist rhetoric around police issues like defund, abolish or purge or whatever is not politically durable and only empowers police unions.


thankfully "defund the police" has been pretty thoroughly exposed that most people and politicians have dropped it totally.
Click to expand...
-You didn't say it, but seem not willing to grapple with another political environment outside of what you think supports your argument. Like here you just circled back to your original point but that was when you made it seem like the blowback we would see would be on the national level.

They need to advocate for things in a political durable way, yes of course. But first, the backlash would hurt the national party. Then no it wasn't only the national it would hurt their cities. But not to the GOP, to other pro-cop democrats that will somehow win enough power to repeal stuff against the wishes of their base, stuff that is shown to be inadequate to solve the problem. Progressives, not one of them, even on the local level, must never cross some line or calamity will be insured. Honestly, no offense, but you speak like you don't know what has been happening in liberal cities already. People have been asking nicely and voting to increase police budgets for decades, running on that fact, and have gotten little in return. More recently police budgets have been well funded with the slightest uptick in murders (which again was misrepresented as crime).

But still, your theory will be tested, I expect pro-cop Dems that want to let the police off the flimsy leash they are on will sweep into power in the next two years. So I guess we will see.

We live in a world where progressives and liberals were trying to improve policing before George Floyd. And activists existed before Defund the Police became a thing. Because your shining example of "activist language bad" is something that most activist and progressive politicians didn't even indulge in or run on. It is the one bad faith right-wingers signal boosted for political gain. And the answer to this is to hold the progressive coalition to some impossible standard that no other political movement has come close to. And present it as some common sense strategy. Uhhh ok famb.

Add to that the warnings you were making months ago didn't come true, anywhere close to it in fact. But, it still has to be some major concern?

-Locally, the status quo is being defended by a lot of centrist Democrats. It took the international backlash to George Floyd for a few smaller reforms to be put in place.

If a consensus is not formed to make a centrist move, then nothing will get done. Liberals and Progressive can follow your plan to a tee, but centrists will be a roadblock.

So in the end, given history seems like the status quo will remain until people near the center stop the ****

-Also, most politicians never ran on Defund the Police. That is a false claim that you and many others have been making. Like I said, adopting that same framing of 2020 that right-wingers did.

Seemingly in an attempt, the grievances around defund the police seem more legit. Because as you already conceded that the progressive left painted as unifying around a position because of bad faith conservative attacks. So I don't know how one can be thankful for people doing something that we know most politicians didn't do
 
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Dave Wasserman makes it sound like this was good news for Dems that the GOP didn't try to carve out new districts beyond that two that were a lock. :lol:

This is a hellish gerrymander. It basically locks in minority rule if the state ever flips blue
 
So called moderates like Manchin and Sinema are really showing their cards right now.

Their argument is we can’t ever do anything progressive because the median voter won’t like it.

Then when presented with voting rights legislation, which would literally change the median voter into a much more left leaning voter, they refuse to do that. They want gerrymandering and voter suppression because it lets them dress up their conservative revulsion to social spending as pragmatism.

So not only do conservative Democrats push bad policies, they are also extremely bad at building and expanding power for their party.
 
RustyShackleford said:
-You didn't say it, but seem not willing to grapple with another political environment outside of what you think supports your argument. Like here you just circled back to your original point but that was when you made it seem like the blowback we would see would be on the national level.

They need to advocate for things in a political durable way, yes of course. But first, the backlash would hurt the national party. Then no it wasn't only the national it would hurt their cities. But not to the GOP, to other pro-cop democrats that will somehow win enough power to repeal stuff against the wishes of their base, stuff that is shown to be inadequate to solve the problem. Progressives, not one of them, even on the local level, must never cross some line or calamity will be insured. Honestly, no offense, but you speak like you don't know what has been happening in liberal cities already. People have been asking nicely and voting to increase police budgets for decades, running on that fact, and have gotten little in return. More recently police budgets have been well funded with the slightest uptick in murders (which again was misrepresented as crime).

But still, your theory will be tested, I expect pro-cop Dems that want to let the police off the flimsy leash they are on will sweep into power in the next two years. So I guess we will see.

We live in a world where progressives and liberals were trying to improve policing before George Floyd. And activists existed before Defund the Police became a thing. Because your shining example of "activist language bad" is something that most activist and progressive politicians didn't even indulge in or run on. It is the one bad faith right-wingers signal boosted for political gain. And the answer to this is to hold the progressive coalition to some impossible standard that no other political movement has come close to. And present it as some common sense strategy. Uhhh ok famb.

Add to that the warnings you were making months ago didn't come true, anywhere close to it in fact. But, it still has to be some major concern?

-Locally, the status quo is being defended by a lot of centrist Democrats. It took the international backlash to George Floyd for a few smaller reforms to be put in place.

If a consensus is not formed to make a centrist move, then nothing will get done. Liberals and Progressive can follow your plan to a tee, but centrists will be a roadblock.

So in the end, given history seems like the status quo will remain until people near the center stop the ****

-Also, most politicians never ran on Defund the Police. That is a false claim that you and many others have been making. Like I said, adopting that same framing of 2020 that right-wingers did.

Seemingly in an attempt, the grievances around defund the police seem more legit. Because as you already conceded that the progressive left painted as unifying around a position because of bad faith conservative attacks. So I don't know how one can be thankful for people doing something that we know most politicians didn't do
Click to expand...

yah ultimately my perception of this and yours is way way different.


The backlash has hurt the national party. and defund the police absolutely has made common sense reform more difficult.

like ive said a million matter it doesn't matter if democrats didn't put it in their party platform or formally run on it.
and it doesn't matter that activists weren't always calling for defund the police.

you had prominent progressives supporting it and many moderate to liberal dems being not actively and aggressively denouncing it.
the damage is done.
Now going forward, you will never be able to forward any accountability measure no matter how meager without being accused of wanting to "defund the police"


and yes im holding the democrats to very high standards, because the republicans have fox news and the democrats don't.
 
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