Re-Retros Galore

[kingk777]

Originally Posted by illadelALLDAY

Originally Posted by devildoc76

You can say the younger isn't responsible for the decline in quality. I agree, but it doesn't help when you're the ones flocking to scoop em up. Even if it isn't you per say, but what about you're peers? You're missing the whole point, these new Jordans are geared towards the youth, not the older heads who used them for ball. Back then you didn't find Jordans labeled as casual in the eastbay catalog, they were in the basketball section along with every other Nike. You guys grew up in the retro era, so of course you assume you got a handle on it. I was 10 when the 1's came out. I can't fault anyone for being born when they were, but dont talk like we're on the same plane when it comes to the evolution of JB.

You know what, I can't even argue against that. I'm 23, so I'm just a tad bit older than JB target market. Old enough to see the older head's point of view...but also old enough to know when some of your views are skewed. You can't really say it's smart to market sneakers with 20 year old technology as a viable option to actually run ball in. And Retros are still under the basketball section on every site I've ever been on. Just as AM90s are still under the running section. But who is really gonna run in some 90s, when there's 2011s out. Same idea, your average ball player (regardless of age) is going to choose the something else to actually play ball in.

You're right, man. The AVERAGE ball player is going to rock with the new kicks...but what about us? Why can't we rock the kicks we grew up with on the court? These young dudes can rock the kicks they "grew up with" in the mall. That was the same activity they were using them for in '04, '05, '06, etc...

What was the first pair of kicks you laced up for ball? Think back and remember how everything about them was the best thing ever because you had a pair of ____(insert kicks) on your feet. It didn't make all that much sense, but all the sudden you could jump a few inches higher, your fadeaway had a little more lean to it, you had the ill step back game going on...shoot, you were even doing work on guys in the post...as a point guard!

That's the thing, man. You can see why I think all this re retro business is a bunch of herb stuff, right? Dudes are rocking and the "new kicks" and talking about "I remember when these RETROS first dropped, I lined up at 2 am with my dudes in the cut and we waited with our Sidekicks and posted on NT all night in the official post...we had our coats on and beanies and coffee and it was mad cold and-" NO. YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHEN THESE KICKS FIRST DROPPED. RETROS AREN'T ORIGINALS. THAT'S WHAT BOTHERS ME. IT'S THEIR MEMORIES OVER OURS, YOU KNOW?

Maybe the average ball player is cool with some generic colored Hyperdunks, but I want some quality Jordans to hoop in. 

 

[trappedintime]

The older heads useD them for ball. Past tense. It's so hypocritical because let's be real here, all these collectors are the same people who are rocking these J's on the streets just like the younger kids. That's what's hypocritical. It's also hypocritical to call people out for buying inferior quality because it's all they've known. The teenagers online hating on quality just because they've heard it's gone down from older people are just as bad as the kids who don't even know any better, maybe worse. That's what's hilarious - any way you cut it, old and new alike are still buying the shoes and you can't tell me that's not the case by and large. You can't tell me that people like myself who played in jordans from age 6-18 in organized games are collecting Jordans to wear at the park or the Y for pickup games in their 20's and 30's. That just isn't the case. I may buy more of the older retros from places like NT's buy/sell forum, but I still pick up new releases and so do most of the people on this board, even if they rag on quality.

I just think that if you want to get into the negatives of the "scene" in 2011, you need to differentiate those that are fans of Jordan, the brand's history, basketball, and sneakers in general from those that are just wearing them the same way they wear LV, Prada, and other big name brands (aka the hypebeasts). And to be sure, there were hypebeasts wearing Jordans because it was the cool thing to do in the '90's as well, but there wasn't an Internet culture to bring them to the forefront of this community (which largely didn't exist 15 years ago).

I'm 27 and I'll at least be real about things past and present alike. Is the quality poor? Yup, but as I've said many times in this thread, by and large sneaker quality has gone down from every major brand over the past decade - in part because of how people wear them, in part because of what studies show about high quality materials and their impact on athletic performance (higher quality and priced shoes perform worse and cause more injuries statistically). The reality is that none of these companies has incentive to use higher quality materials that are more scarce today and cost more to source than they did 10, 15, 20 or 25 years ago.

Here's some food for thought though: Does is who is in Nike or Jordan Brand's target demographic today all that picky of a consumer? Do they care about many of the issues brought up in this thread? Highly unlikely, especially when most of this forum won't even back its negative opinions with a staunch stance against the product itself. Hypocrisy at its finest here, while wondering why the world's mega corporations walk all over your wants and "needs." If you take a step back, it's pretty laughable isn't it?

 

[kix4kix]

At the end of the day its 160 dollars for some sneakers. Even if they are laced in gold they are over priced. Some of you realize that the primary goal of a company is to drive sales/profits right?
Sure we can complain about the nike air on the back, the cheapened leather ect... but lets be honest, the quality varies from retro to retro, and if you pick and choose the ones you want, the quality should be more than sufficient to you. There is always 600$ Ballenciagas if you want superior matierials. 

 

[jumpman cbt2]

My first pair of air jordans were the aj 8 playoffs.
they were made with good quality. About ten years
Later the retro had poor paintjob and the leather
Was cheap being filmsy and thin.
But the ones which came out in 2007
Were somehow better again, though the
Paintjob was still cracking and chipping.
i still wear retro jordans on the court
Though only with certain ones like the
2001 aj 3, 2003 aj 12, 2004 aj 14 and 2005
aj 10. Other retros like the 2000 aj 6
or aj 11 were terrible in performance.
from the retros i must say the aj 10
and aj 14 still can be on par with
Many modern basketball kicks.

 

[young sones]

these corny kids and corporate $+#@+ ruined it all

 

[kingk777]

Originally Posted by trappedintime

The older heads useD them for ball. Past tense. It's so hypocritical because let's be real here, all these collectors are the same people who are rocking these J's on the streets just like the younger kids. That's what's hypocritical. It's also hypocritical to call people out for buying inferior quality because it's all they've known. The teenagers online hating on quality just because they've heard it's gone down from older people are just as bad as the kids who don't even know any better, maybe worse. That's what's hilarious - any way you cut it, old and new alike are still buying the shoes and you can't tell me that's not the case by and large. You can't tell me that people like myself who played in jordans from age 6-18 in organized games are collecting Jordans to wear at the park or the Y for pickup games in their 20's and 30's. That just isn't the case. I may buy more of the older retros from places like NT's buy/sell forum, but I still pick up new releases and so do most of the people on this board, even if they rag on quality.

I just think that if you want to get into the negatives of the "scene" in 2011, you need to differentiate those that are fans of Jordan, the brand's history, basketball, and sneakers in general from those that are just wearing them the same way they wear LV, Prada, and other big name brands (aka the hypebeasts). And to be sure, there were hypebeasts wearing Jordans because it was the cool thing to do in the '90's as well, but there wasn't an Internet culture to bring them to the forefront of this community (which largely didn't exist 15 years ago).

I'm 27 and I'll at least be real about things past and present alike. Is the quality poor? Yup, but as I've said many times in this thread, by and large sneaker quality has gone down from every major brand over the past decade - in part because of how people wear them, in part because of what studies show about high quality materials and their impact on athletic performance (higher quality and priced shoes perform worse and cause more injuries statistically). The reality is that none of these companies has incentive to use higher quality materials that are more scarce today and cost more to source than they did 10, 15, 20 or 25 years ago.

Here's some food for thought though: Does is who is in Nike or Jordan Brand's target demographic today all that picky of a consumer? Do they care about many of the issues brought up in this thread? Highly unlikely, especially when most of this forum won't even back its negative opinions with a staunch stance against the product itself. Hypocrisy at its finest here, while wondering why the world's mega corporations walk all over your wants and "needs." If you take a step back, it's pretty laughable isn't it?

Trappedintime, you continue to make excellent points that shape the way I look at this whole issue, man. There were certainly hypebeasts back in the day...I just think it was still of a different nature back then. Sure, there were, are, and will always be herbs, but 100 times as many of those herbs now have access to "what's hot" because of the internet. Dudes can sign on message boards, whip out their daddy's credit card, and "get fresh" in however long it takes Fedex to deliver the "goods." People have always had money, but the way Jordans are reaching the majority of their market nowadays is pathetic. Grown men holding, squeezing, and caressing a shoe like it's a woman on youtube and licking the soles and talking about what a hot sneaker it is...come on, now. And kids latch onto that. It's kind of disturbing to me that people don't have the sense to go out into to the world at least to "see what's hot" and actually live lives. Like devildoc mentioned...what ever happened to learning about Js from your brother? Whatever happened to getting that one pair a year right around Christmas, back when the Christmas Js weren't just another BapeXSidekickXCrew campout affair? 



It has indeed been proven that higher tech sneakers cause injuries, but I don't buy that as an excuse for removing quality craftsmanship from the equation. I don't mean to refute your argument entirely because, like you said, it's only a part of the equation, with the majority of the factors being the teenage-girly way in which dudes rock Js nowadays, but it's fair to use technology causing injuries as an excuse for poor quality RETRO sneakers in my opinion. I don't mean to nitpick, as I think you have a very solid argument and I didn't even think of that factor, but I had to point that out.

Hypocrisy is indeed prevalent on this board. NT will not stand beside the "better quality/Nike Air" cause and boycott sneakers. I'm not claiming they should and I'm not claiming you said I said they should. I'm not a salty old head who won't buy the new Js either. I have mad love for the Jordan Brand. I don't claim to love it more than the next man either...

It just pains me to see where things are going, man. I don't want Concords to become a staple sneaker like white on white AF1s that you can just cop willy nilly at a Footlocker near you any time of year. I don't want to see horrendous Retro+ color ways taking precedence over dope, long overdue OG color ways (I.E City Series X's), I don't want my Js creasing in the toe and looking like I've been balling a whole season in them after one or two wears. 

 

[trappedintime]

Originally Posted by kingk777

Originally Posted by trappedintime

The older heads useD them for ball. Past tense. It's so hypocritical because let's be real here, all these collectors are the same people who are rocking these J's on the streets just like the younger kids. That's what's hypocritical. It's also hypocritical to call people out for buying inferior quality because it's all they've known. The teenagers online hating on quality just because they've heard it's gone down from older people are just as bad as the kids who don't even know any better, maybe worse. That's what's hilarious - any way you cut it, old and new alike are still buying the shoes and you can't tell me that's not the case by and large. You can't tell me that people like myself who played in jordans from age 6-18 in organized games are collecting Jordans to wear at the park or the Y for pickup games in their 20's and 30's. That just isn't the case. I may buy more of the older retros from places like NT's buy/sell forum, but I still pick up new releases and so do most of the people on this board, even if they rag on quality.

I just think that if you want to get into the negatives of the "scene" in 2011, you need to differentiate those that are fans of Jordan, the brand's history, basketball, and sneakers in general from those that are just wearing them the same way they wear LV, Prada, and other big name brands (aka the hypebeasts). And to be sure, there were hypebeasts wearing Jordans because it was the cool thing to do in the '90's as well, but there wasn't an Internet culture to bring them to the forefront of this community (which largely didn't exist 15 years ago).

I'm 27 and I'll at least be real about things past and present alike. Is the quality poor? Yup, but as I've said many times in this thread, by and large sneaker quality has gone down from every major brand over the past decade - in part because of how people wear them, in part because of what studies show about high quality materials and their impact on athletic performance (higher quality and priced shoes perform worse and cause more injuries statistically). The reality is that none of these companies has incentive to use higher quality materials that are more scarce today and cost more to source than they did 10, 15, 20 or 25 years ago.

Here's some food for thought though: Does is who is in Nike or Jordan Brand's target demographic today all that picky of a consumer? Do they care about many of the issues brought up in this thread? Highly unlikely, especially when most of this forum won't even back its negative opinions with a staunch stance against the product itself. Hypocrisy at its finest here, while wondering why the world's mega corporations walk all over your wants and "needs." If you take a step back, it's pretty laughable isn't it?

Trappedintime, you continue to make excellent points that shape the way I look at this whole issue, man. There were certainly hypebeasts back in the day...I just think it was still of a different nature back then. Sure, there were, are, and will always be herbs, but 100 times as many of those herbs now have access to "what's hot" because of the internet. Dudes can sign on message boards, whip out their daddy's credit card, and "get fresh" in however long it takes Fedex to deliver the "goods." People have always had money, but the way Jordans are reaching the majority of their market nowadays is pathetic. Grown men holding, squeezing, and caressing a shoe like it's a woman on youtube and licking the soles and talking about what a hot sneaker it is...come on, now. And kids latch onto that. It's kind of disturbing to me that people don't have the sense to go out into to the world at least to "see what's hot" and actually live lives. Like devildoc mentioned...what ever happened to learning about Js from your brother? Whatever happened to getting that one pair a year right around Christmas, back when the Christmas Js weren't just another BapeXSidekickXCrew campout affair? 



It has indeed been proven that higher tech sneakers cause injuries, but I don't buy that as an excuse for removing quality craftsmanship from the equation. I don't mean to refute your argument entirely because, like you said, it's only a part of the equation, with the majority of the factors being the teenage-girly way in which dudes rock Js nowadays, but it's fair to use technology causing injuries as an excuse for poor quality RETRO sneakers in my opinion. I don't mean to nitpick, as I think you have a very solid argument and I didn't even think of that factor, but I had to point that out.

Hypocrisy is indeed prevalent on this board. NT will not stand beside the "better quality/Nike Air" cause and boycott sneakers. I'm not claiming they should and I'm not claiming you said I said they should. I'm not a salty old head who won't buy the new Js either. I have mad love for the Jordan Brand. I don't claim to love it more than the next man either...

It just pains me to see where things are going, man. I don't want Concords to become a staple sneaker like white on white AF1s that you can just cop willy nilly at a Footlocker near you any time of year. I don't want to see horrendous Retro+ color ways taking precedence over dope, long overdue OG color ways (I.E City Series X's), I don't want my Js creasing in the toe and looking like I've been balling a whole season in them after one or two wears. 

A few things I'd like to respond to:
Re: quality going down - I was simply pointing out that from a business perspective Adidas, Reebok and Nike are all pretty much on the same page regarding quality. The use of premium leathers has gone dramatically down for numerous reasons, some of which I highlighted above. The fact that old and new JB heads wear the sneakers casually rather than for sport is one contributing factor to a decline in quality materials, but not necessarily the leading one.

Re: NT and hypocrisy - I tend to think people in general overstate their opinions and many of those who are outspoken are often the same people copping for keeps or more often to resell at a profit. Resellers feed the problem just as much as the hypebeasts.

Re: XIs becoming a staple sneaker - Do you really think that's happening or will be happening? Seems hyperbolic to me. Concords haven't had a GR in a decade, and as I pointed out, since 1994 when retros began, they have averaged every 6 years per colorway. Very few colorways are retroing outside of the CDP series more than every 6 years. This isn't a new trend, nor something I think people should be concerned with. I think some people worry too much about things like this.

Re: The Hype - You mention, "Whatever happened to getting that one pair a year right around Christmas, back when the Christmas Js weren't just another BapeXSidekickXCrew campout affair?" Isn't it pretty self explanatory what happened? The Air Jordan line was in progress back then. The Air Jordan line is over now (people can call the 2011's and whatever else part of that same line, but they ended for me with the XIV's, certainly with the XVII's). One pair a year is a thing of the past. Many of us also didn't get the other colorways of a given model, further reason why the onslaught of retro releases grabs people so strongly. You may have had the Concords, but did you have the Space Jams and BReds too?  I was out of the scene for the better part of the decade, and I still have only participated in a couple of campout/long-line scenes in the past few years, but anytime there's a public "event" for any cultural/community-backed product, service, etc... you see the scenesters come out and parade around like douchebags, usually in the 15-19 year old demographic. I hate to bring in class factors here, but you have immature rich kids and immature poor kids who don't get out that much acting like idiots at these sorta campouts. 

I guess I haven't paid too much attention to the idiots who caress, lick and worship some sneakers, but I'm aware these kind of tools are out there. If you're familiar with tumblr and follow people who are into Jordan photography, you'll see ridiculous stuff like this from time to time. I take it with a grain of salt. The Internet brings out the lowest common denominator more often than not, but I don't necessarily see those fringe elements as indicative of the people I know who are part of the community. The Internet amplifies the hype and amplifies all the negatives. In fact, I'd argue the Internet as a whole is largely based around criticism and negative feedback.

I do agree that the Internet age makes the knowledge and hype surrounding sneakers - and a host of other markets - much more pronounced today than in 1994 or 2001 or even 2006. As a professional who makes his living off the Internet, I appreciate it's capabilities but acknowledge the decay it's created in cultural norms and values. I think people need to focus less on the downfall of a brand that is still $1B a year with a 70%+ market share for basketball shoes, and realize that the United States culture and productivity is going down the crapper. You can look around and see it in a lot more than just Jordans or hypebeasts.

Just my thoughts on things. Not saying I'm the only one with proper opinions on this topic, but there are some very slanted opinions in this thread (least probably being your's kingk777).

 

[kingk777]

A few things I'd like to respond to:
Re: quality going down - I was simply pointing out that from a business perspective Adidas, Reebok and Nike are all pretty much on the same page regarding quality. The use of premium leathers has gone dramatically down for numerous reasons, some of which I highlighted above. The fact that old and new JB heads wear the sneakers casually rather than for sport is one contributing factor to a decline in quality materials, but not necessarily the leading one.

Re: NT and hypocrisy - I tend to think people in general overstate their opinions and many of those who are outspoken are often the same people copping for keeps or more often to resell at a profit. Resellers feed the problem just as much as the hypebeasts.

Re: XIs becoming a staple sneaker - Do you really think that's happening or will be happening? Seems hyperbolic to me. Concords haven't had a GR in a decade, and as I pointed out, since 1994 when retros began, they have averaged every 6 years per colorway. Very few colorways are retroing outside of the CDP series more than every 6 years. This isn't a new trend, nor something I think people should be concerned with. I think some people worry too much about things like this.

Re: The Hype - You mention, "Whatever happened to getting that one pair a year right around Christmas, back when the Christmas Js weren't just another BapeXSidekickXCrew campout affair?" Isn't it pretty self explanatory what happened? The Air Jordan line was in progress back then. The Air Jordan line is over now (people can call the 2011's and whatever else part of that same line, but they ended for me with the XIV's, certainly with the XVII's). One pair a year is a thing of the past. Many of us also didn't get the other colorways of a given model, further reason why the onslaught of retro releases grabs people so strongly. You may have had the Concords, but did you have the Space Jams and BReds too?  I was out of the scene for the better part of the decade, and I still have only participated in a couple of campout/long-line scenes in the past few years, but anytime there's a public "event" for any cultural/community-backed product, service, etc... you see the scenesters come out and parade around like douchebags, usually in the 15-19 year old demographic. I hate to bring in class factors here, but you have immature rich kids and immature poor kids who don't get out that much acting like idiots at these sorta campouts. 

I guess I haven't paid too much attention to the idiots who caress, lick and worship some sneakers, but I'm aware these kind of tools are out there. If you're familiar with tumblr and follow people who are into Jordan photography, you'll see ridiculous stuff like this from time to time. I take it with a grain of salt. The Internet brings out the lowest common denominator more often than not, but I don't necessarily see those fringe elements as indicative of the people I know who are part of the community. The Internet amplifies the hype and amplifies all the negatives. In fact, I'd argue the Internet as a whole is largely based around criticism and negative feedback.

I do agree that the Internet age makes the knowledge and hype surrounding sneakers - and a host of other markets - much more pronounced today than in 1994 or 2001 or even 2006. As a professional who makes his living off the Internet, I appreciate it's capabilities but acknowledge the decay it's created in cultural norms and values. I think people need to focus less on the downfall of a brand that is still $1B a year with a 70%+ market share for basketball shoes, and realize that the United States culture and productivity is going down the crapper. You can look around and see it in a lot more than just Jordans or hypebeasts.

Just my thoughts on things. Not saying I'm the only one with proper opinions on this topic, but there are some very slanted opinions in this thread (least probably being your's kingk777).

Trappedintime, I appreciate the sound and knowledgable response. You continue to add valuable insight to this post, shedding light on issues that I have not even yet considered. 
It is true that all of the "major" sneaker companies have let their quality-game slip over time. We witnessed such a boom in the 90s, with seemingly EVERY major ball player dropping sig sneakers on EVERY major brand...with companies actually...INNOVATING AND DRIVING EACH OTHER TO PERFORM...that it's hard to swallow the bleak leathers being fed to a Finishline near you. Maybe what we saw was once in a life time...

Resellers feed the problem as much as hype beasts. You're exactly right. I can't knock somebody for trying to make money (if, sadly, that's the only way they can scrape a few bucks together), but I CAN, and WILL knock somebody for hyping up the official release posts just so they can make some money...or man, DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON THE CONCORD THREAD AND CERTAIN DUDES IN THERE. But you're right, resellers feed on high school kids' insecurity. If they think they can "get shorty" with a pair of Denim 3's...and the store doesn't have any Denim 3's left...of course they're going to pay 2X retail for the kicks. It's disgusting to me, because back in the day the store would still have plenty of Denim 3's left. (And they likely will when/if they drop...because those kicks are 

) But you see what I mean.

On Jordan Brand ending after the XIV: Again, you're right. Jordan brand was still up and running back in the day. They were indeed still a sneaker company, as opposed to "lifestyle brand" or whatever the heck people label it now. I wish I could write more right now, but I have to leave for dinner in 3 minutes. 

What struck me most about your post though was the fact that JB (or Nike...not sure which one you were referencing) still is a 1Billion$ company with a 70% market share in the industry. They have indeed done great things and deserve all due respect and profit, as they are indeed the greatest sneaker company in the world. It would be time better spent talking about American production and culture. People are zonked out in front of the TV buying up whatever MTV tells them and throwing their paychecks down the drain straight to China, while dudes like Air Randy are jerking their kids out of their credit-card money and laughing. 




But I can't really do much about all that at this moment...so I stick to talking JB and trying to make some headway there.