Serious Open Discussion on Nike Circa #NT 2007

[nikedealer]

Just4.. never apologize for going indepth... thats whats appreciated... the banter... As for the initial question.. it was more rhetorical than anything lol... just to get the banter started ...

As for shoes retro'd that originally had leather..it is Nike's sole responsibility to provide us with nothing but a choice. Sadly many take that option whatever it is.. and as DMX stated with so many choosing to buy regardless of the price point or quality this will never end.

I wasn't as surprised by the Lebron doing well at the $250 price point, it was them doing several colorways at that pricepoint. I still think the Taxi's are just ok in sales but the Home and Aways did pretty well.

The initial thought process was why give the resellers the money we can make if people are going to spend triple that in some cases anyway? Just like the Yeezy's... my son actually asked me to use my favors on that.... shiiiiiiooooot.

I love him.. but not that much lol. Kids willing to spend the type of money thats being shown on ebay is UNREAL. EVERYONE who is a new age reseller is looking for every release to be the next OG South Beach and Galaxy...

There's no chance ANY Foam should resell for more than a Jordan Concord or Black/Red. There's no chance a retro + Flight One should be at the same level as those two.

While admitting WE ALL have been Hypebeasts at some point or another (me for the Altitudes & Melo II Nuggets) and Im sure you all for one release or another.. but I also am a grown !$% man now and have much more restraint.. a MUCH greater insight to Nike's inner workings from the top down and Bottom up. Business and shady... so I refuse to pay 1000 for Lebron III Dunkmans as I did once.

Hell I wont even pay $300 for Lebron III Supermans which once were $1500 as I once have. Knowing shoes are NOT the commodity many make them out to be and they all cost a few shillings to make and Folks in Fake Nation over seas are making them closer and closer to the real thing now makes me much smarter....

But the perks help...lol

 

[SORIANOTRON]

Originally Posted by secretzofwar

Yes, back when NT had a true love of footwear rather than "stunting."

 

[nikedealer]

Here is a picture of a Foam - Lite Concept I pitched about 5  years ago.  The inspiration as you can see was a Bullet Train, the Aeron (Mesh) Chair for breathability and the dimples on Golf Balls.
It wasn't used in this sense...but a few years later Hyperfuse (mesh) was born. Coincidence?  Perhaps... but I still think the execution was a bit off. Even now the Hyperposite which was excuted really well is releasing and isn't as sleek as this one... but my thoughts at the time were the Lebron 4 being bulkier than it had to be.  Granted I am not the best graphic artist. BP assisted on this as well back then.

One thing I did learn was if its not their idea..its not a good one lol...but thats almost any industry. One might ask why I put the golf ball. inspiration on there. Who knows... 

 

[sk33termcg33]

As labor prices in India and China and such start to increase as they slowly have been in the past few years, we will start to see a shift in production operations moving back to home countries rather than being outsourced. Labor arbitrage is cyclical, as developing countries essentially "catch up" to the curve, making it just as expensive (down the road) to produce abroad and firms start to realize that domestic production is more profitable.

I'm only 24 years old, so a lot of the knowledge imparted in this thread is a great read for me! Appreciate all the opinions and info you guys are bringing to this discussion!

 

[nikedealer]

^^^ The only thing is... with many companies... they appease the Fed Government by producing parts or items in the states but BUS 101 lets us all know their Profit Margin is made with the foreign production.

Mercedes does it. Apple does it. Many do it.

This is how they get their tax breaks. I mean look at IT companies.. they are using Human Capital in other countries to save money. Its a way of life which Im afraid to say will never change. With Unions being the way they are in the states... bringing some of those jobs to America would not be condusive to conducting good business. As people love to bring up New Balance producing shoes in America.. its only a fraction.

In that case.. Nike has a basement where they produce samples but its by an Asian woman who is SICK with how she puts Hybrids together... (a little secret little known lol)

 

[secretzofwar]

I actually agree. High fuel, commodity and soaring labors costs in the developing countries will bring some jobs back here. That'd probably also mean less fakes, because, you know, we have intellectual property laws here.

 

[nikedealer]

lolol... Secret you'd think that would be the case... but as long as Economics are the way they are and average wages dont come close to what they do here, fakes would only increase if more factories were closed and Nike would be charging MUCH MUCH higher costs for footwear which may not be made with the same handling.

Im all for made in the USA.... but lets face it.... even here in the states people hire latins at much lower wages to provide better quality of work.
We'd ALL love to design and work with sneakers.. but how many folks would be great at actually making them in a factory?

 

[dr damon]

hello Rock and friends. nice discussion. My 2 cents. since i am one of the older dudes who has been around for along time, i know what kind of quality and performance you used to be able to get for your money. Things have changed alot, and todays major demographic of sneaker buying public really only cares about who wears it, and is it limited, and could care less about whats in the shoes. Our hobby has become a fad, and people nowadays wear whats hot for maybe a month or two, and then on to the next one. As a business, nike is trying to make money, and they are making lots of it. if that means pushing $100+ basketball shoes with no air, or only heel or forefoot air but not both, and the public still eats it up, well good for them. the recent practice of gutting tech and replacing it with foam/lunar just makes me buy less. Overall, i don't purchase near as many shoes as I used to, so nike is actually saving me money. $250 for some lebron elites, that have the same cushioning set up as the overpriced normal version? oh, im sorry its because they're lighter. $160 for some jordan 4 retros that are worse quality than the 1999 retros that had a $100 retail price? 100 bucks for some frees when $85 bucks was pushing it? (i do love running in frees by the way but rarely pay retail ) Lowering the production cost while maximizing profits is business 101, and unfortunately we as the sneaker buying public are eating it up. I am not a fan of plastic shoes, hyperfuse, flywire what ever you want to call it. Have I ever bought any shoes with the plastic? yeah, blake mangos because i liked the colorway, and some jordan 2012 ID's which i actually returned because i thought they were cheap and not worth the money. I think the practice of plastic lighter shoes isn't going to change. I think overall, the shoes nowadays aren't really made to last the way they used to be. Quality leather nike shoes have pretty much gone the way of the dinosaur. Look at the recent flight 89 release. was going to cop a pair, and held them in my hand then put them back on the shelf without thinking twice. 200 bucks for some foams, yeah ill buy if i like the colorway, because i actually like playing in foams and i'm ok with the softer foam because they break in easier that way. Was ready to by one of Rocks favorites the zoom rookie to play ball in because i love foams until i found out it had a gum stick of zoom in the heel and nothing in the forefoot. great design though. i really think nike was and is testing the waters to see how much they can get away with on us especially because many will buy from resellers for way over retail, and the shoes will never see a basketball court, so yeah why not take more profits if many of the hot shoes are just going to be re-sold anyway? Why not gut the tech on a retro shoe with NSW and raise the price, especially if it will still sell, its not like people really use their shoes to play sports in right? well very few of us do. Its really too bad the way things have gone in recent years, but thats business. the zoom bb1 was a great performance shoe with bad colorways, but there are multiple threads on that subject. I have said it before, I think things started to slip once Phil retired, and things have been just getting worse and worse. But I would agree with Rock about the prices. they can set whatever pricepoint they want. Nobody is forcing us to buy shoes. We have a choice. when i buy shoes now, its hardly ever for retail. love the finishline coupons and rewards points, and discounts from running warehouse. I am hopeful that things will change, but i dont see it happening anytime soon.


Nike if you are listening, I have been a loyal customer since 1988, but have reduced my spending by THOUSANDS per year on your products. not that it matters.

 

[secretzofwar]

Fantastic post DR DAMON.

I really couldn't agree more about not buying new retros anymore. I bought the XI's, but only because of its iconic status. I haven't bought a Jordan retro since the CDP pack and the quality is absolute garbage. I do think the quality on some of the shoes is decent (LeBron line, running is much better), but even the quality on Durant's shoe is pure garbage.

 

[kingofny04]

Great topic. I can assure all of you that many of Nike's most coveted employees check NT religiously. I was at an event one time and just so happened to lurk over a certain designers phone and peeped him in the LeBron thread (easy giveaway).


I will definitely chime in when I get a chance to fully sit down and read over your discussion topics and thoughts.

 

[vood99]

Originally Posted by DR DAMON

hello Rock and friends. nice discussion. My 2 cents. since i am one of the older dudes who has been around for along time, i know what kind of quality and performance you used to be able to get for your money. Things have changed alot, and todays major demographic of sneaker buying public really only cares about who wears it, and is it limited, and could care less about whats in the shoes. Our hobby has become a fad, and people nowadays wear whats hot for maybe a month or two, and then on to the next one. As a business, nike is trying to make money, and they are making lots of it. if that means pushing $100+ basketball shoes with no air, or only heel or forefoot air but not both, and the public still eats it up, well good for them. the recent practice of gutting tech and replacing it with foam/lunar just makes me buy less. Overall, i don't purchase near as many shoes as I used to, so nike is actually saving me money. $250 for some lebron elites, that have the same cushioning set up as the overpriced normal version? oh, im sorry its because they're lighter. $160 for some jordan 4 retros that are worse quality than the 1999 retros that had a $100 retail price? 100 bucks for some frees when $85 bucks was pushing it? (i do love running in frees by the way but rarely pay retail ) Lowering the production cost while maximizing profits is business 101, and unfortunately we as the sneaker buying public are eating it up. I am not a fan of plastic shoes, hyperfuse, flywire what ever you want to call it. Have I ever bought any shoes with the plastic? yeah, blake mangos because i liked the colorway, and some jordan 2012 ID's which i actually returned because i thought they were cheap and not worth the money. I think the practice of plastic lighter shoes isn't going to change. I think overall, the shoes nowadays aren't really made to last the way they used to be. Quality leather nike shoes have pretty much gone the way of the dinosaur. Look at the recent flight 89 release. was going to cop a pair, and held them in my hand then put them back on the shelf without thinking twice. 200 bucks for some foams, yeah ill buy if i like the colorway, because i actually like playing in foams and i'm ok with the softer foam because they break in easier that way. Was ready to by one of Rocks favorites the zoom rookie to play ball in because i love foams until i found out it had a gum stick of zoom in the heel and nothing in the forefoot. great design though. i really think nike was and is testing the waters to see how much they can get away with on us especially because many will buy from resellers for way over retail, and the shoes will never see a basketball court, so yeah why not take more profits if many of the hot shoes are just going to be re-sold anyway? Why not gut the tech on a retro shoe with NSW and raise the price, especially if it will still sell, its not like people really use their shoes to play sports in right? well very few of us do. Its really too bad the way things have gone in recent years, but thats business. the zoom bb1 was a great performance shoe with bad colorways, but there are multiple threads on that subject. I have said it before, I think things started to slip once Phil retired, and things have been just getting worse and worse. But I would agree with Rock about the prices. they can set whatever pricepoint they want. Nobody is forcing us to buy shoes. We have a choice. when i buy shoes now, its hardly ever for retail. love the finishline coupons and rewards points, and discounts from running warehouse. I am hopeful that things will change, but i dont see it happening anytime soon.


Nike if you are listening, I have been a loyal customer since 1988, but have reduced my spending by THOUSANDS per year on your products. not that it matters.

Doc Damon, welcome my dude and what an entrance! What's interesting is that Mark Parker is a Nike vet and he's been with the company since they gained prominence in the 80s, so his views can't be that different from Phil Knight's, no?   

 

[vood99]

Originally Posted by secretzofwar

Fantastic post DR DAMON.

I really couldn't agree more about not buying new retros anymore. I bought the XI's, but only because of its iconic status. I haven't bought a Jordan retro since the CDP pack and the quality is absolute garbage. I do think the quality on some of the shoes is decent (LeBron line, running is much better), but even the quality on Durant's shoe is pure garbage.

Secretz, I can't even begin to describe how dissapointed I was with the CDP XI. Lined up at 4 in the morning and ended up getting a flu for those kicks but nothing could top the feeling of being bamboozled when I put them on. I guess that was my 'defining moment' as far as retro purchases went. The CDP XII was far, far better than the XI but paled in comparison to the '03-'04 XII retro. 

  

 

[vood99]

Originally Posted by NikeDealer

lolol... Secret you'd think that would be the case... but as long as Economics are the way they are and average wages dont come close to what they do here, fakes would only increase if more factories were closed and Nike would be charging MUCH MUCH higher costs for footwear which may not be made with the same handling.

Im all for made in the USA.... but lets face it.... even here in the states people hire latins at much lower wages to provide better quality of work.
We'd ALL love to design and work with sneakers.. but how many folks would be great at actually making them in a factory?

Rock are you saying that Nike has adopted the old adage of 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'. That would shed some light on the borderline fake quality NSW product being churned out.
  

 

[nikedealer]

Damon good post my man. Yeah.. you are dead on with the Zoom Rookie.. favorite design wise.. .but not even close Performance wise... you know its the 2K3 and Zoom BB1 for me lol. I think Im well documented on that!! lol

As of buying retro's... I dont even look at them. Having a VERY familiar look at the consideration of how the materials are put together I have only wanted the XI's in Black/Red or Concord colorways.. oh and Cool Grey's..

Im afraid of what the Cool Grey IXs will be.. and wasn't too thrilled with the XIIs in Black/White... but if they fail me on the 3M Black/Red XIIIs I will be disappointed but not lose sleep.

Vood as far as Mark Parker and Phils views... you are correct.. as I stated either here or another thread it was Mark Parker who scrapped the original Lebron VI "Power" by Kenzo and it was redesigned in like 30 days by a team of non Nike Basketball Jordan Designers.. Im still not sure who did it but Im pretty sure it was some designers from the Kitchen.

Marks VERY in tune with whats going on with Signature lines but he is his own person with his own opinions, but dont get it twisted.. Phil is there OFTEN eating in the same spot in the Mia Hamm Cafeteria upstairs almost everyday. When he stepped down he moved his physical office to another location as to not have himself being a shadow over Mark when he comes in.

I think the biggest mistake is when Phil brought in a NON Nike guy from Johnson and Johnson years ago.. I think Perez or something like that. Everyone was wondering what the f he was doing. You just have to have Nike experience and be of that culture to know how to take them to the next level.

Do I think at times they are too far in the weeds to see how new ideas can take them to new heights? Very much so... but again.. if its not some of their ideas.. its not a good one.

 

[vood99]

^^^
Rock thanks for sharing the knowledge. Yes, the Johnson & Johnson exec didn't last for too long and you're 100% on the money regarding people having to immerse themselves in the Nike culture to last in the company.

 

[nikedealer]

It is a culture Vood.

It is that indeed.

 

[suburbanknight]

Thanks for the heads up on this thread Vood. Agreed on the unspeakable acts that the Nike Sportswear brand have committed. On one end you have these $180-200 plastic, light shoes that are for performance but can pop and fall apart after a few games. Classic example is the Hyperizes, though 360 Air was in the shoe but was not something I enjoyed balling in and something that had no arch support. On the other you have this hype brand (NSW) reissuing older performance shoes with all the tech ripped out and really sub par materials. The worst are these hybrid shoes - 1/2 cents, Air Maestros (which felt cheaper than a pair of flip flops) that straight off the bat you know will offer you no support as they aren't for performance. Even things like the Huarache Free's where the OG was almost the mother of todays bb shoes, which even includes todays tech and they are still branded as NSW. These were put out as quickstrikes with no intention of appealing to performance.

I've been wearing Nike Airs since the early 90s after I had an operation on my ankle. In order to play sports at school I needed the padding and cushioning that I took for granted with Nike. In England shoes like the 2000 TN Plus are still made and sold at a premium though it is totally unreliable whether these offer the same benefits of a pair made before Mark Parker took over. You can't really tell in a store even after you tried them on whether they are going to hold up, you need a long walk, run, game to see for yourself.

One thing I do know is that my left ankle prefers my year 2000 Flight 89s over the latest Lebron. The older leather pairs maybe heavier on my ankle but the thickness and absorption in the sole makes all the difference.

That's my two cents, as for Nike's phobia of leather...

 

[nikedealer]

I have to say Im surprised this thread has lasted THIS long and THIS many pages.... if it dies I'd call it a sucess... but Im sure we can all refer back to it once misdeeds or different topics come up unable to be carried on in regular threads where pics and price checks are needed.

 

[vood99]

Originally Posted by suburbanknight

Thanks for the heads up on this thread Vood. Agreed on the unspeakable acts that the Nike Sportswear brand have committed. On one end you have these $180-200 plastic, light shoes that are for performance but can pop and fall apart after a few games. Classic example is the Hyperizes, though 360 Air was in the shoe but was not something I enjoyed balling in and something that had no arch support. On the other you have this hype brand (NSW) reissuing older performance shoes with all the tech ripped out and really sub par materials. The worst are these hybrid shoes - 1/2 cents, Air Maestros (which felt cheaper than a pair of flip flops) that straight off the bat you know will offer you no support as they aren't for performance. Even things like the Huarache Free's where the OG was almost the mother of todays bb shoes, which even includes todays tech and they are still branded as NSW. These were put out as quickstrikes with no intention of appealing to performance.

I've been wearing Nike Airs since the early 90s after I had an operation on my ankle. In order to play sports at school I needed the padding and cushioning that I took for granted with Nike. In England shoes like the 2000 TN Plus are still made and sold at a premium though it is totally unreliable whether these offer the same benefits of a pair made before Mark Parker took over. You can't really tell in a store even after you tried them on whether they are going to hold up, you need a long walk, run, game to see for yourself.

One thing I do know is that my left ankle prefers my year 2000 Flight 89s over the latest Lebron. The older leather pairs maybe heavier on my ankle but the thickness and absorption in the sole makes all the difference.

That's my two cents, as for Nike's phobia of leather...

Welcome Knight, I grew up on leather based Reeboks and Nikes in the 90s so I know what you're feeling now.  I can accept the synthetics on the new products as they are engineered with those materials in mind - but as you stated the materials just don't work on retro product. I'm not sure if M.Parker's vision is directly responsible for the downtrend of Nike retro as I do remember Nike/JB messing around with pleather on 'some' of their product in '03 to '05. They were extremely selective then and the pleather of 2003 is 100X better than the cardboard they are throwing on the shoes now.

I feel what you're saying about the hybrids though and my whole perspective on retros has changed - I despise 'em and their hybrid kin.

 

[secretzofwar]

It is a shame how poor the materials are these days, even pleather is going down hill.

Unfortunately, Nike realized they could continue to put out poor products, and 16 year olds will still buy them no questions asked.

 

[d1ner0]

to nikedealer comments, my favorite shoe is the jordan xi hands down of all time... i was excited to find out they were re-retroing during cdp then space jam time. when i got a hold of the shoe when they came out i was very dissapointed therefore what i did is sold all the multiple pairs i got in my size and used the money and bought a bunch of 01 and 00's i stashed 5 pairs of cool greys 3 pairs of concords 3 pairs of dmps 2 pairs of columbias if the patent didnt turn like the jordan vii easter colorway yet, and the 3 pairs of black red. still in the hunt for more 01 bred if the price is right cause im betting that the december jordan xi this year wont cut it for me. i believe that the dmp was the last of the quality jordan and then it went down hill from there with the exceptions of a few pairs here and there nowadays. i work at footlocker part time mind you so to say we get 100 pairs of the newest retros so to say the jordan iv im a size 11 it took 1 out of 20 pairs i looked at in my size to find a decent one.

 

[nikedealer]

What are you guys thoughts on what Nike could do to improve upon the HOH concept?

Other than missing the ball on Exclusive releases for Basketball which has been the main focus... I think Nike really could have used and still should utilize the HoH to expand to ALL Sports PE's.

When Manny has a release... instead of making it a 12 or 24 shoe release per store... make it 100 per store. Make it a pack. His Boxing shoes as well as Trainers would sell.
When one of their Tennis athletes has a release in a great colorway... use HoH to release it.

Right now NSW and Nike Basketball have all the focus and it limits Nike in many ways on their energy potential.

 

[ijapino]

Originally Posted by NikeDealer

What are you guys thoughts on what Nike could do to improve upon the HOH concept?

Other than missing the ball on Exclusive releases for Basketball which has been the main focus... I think Nike really could have used and still should utilize the HoH to expand to ALL Sports PE's.

When Manny has a release... instead of making it a 12 or 24 shoe release per store... make it 100 per store. Make it a pack. His Boxing shoes as well as Trainers would sell.
When one of their Tennis athletes has a release in a great colorway... use HoH to release it.

Right now NSW and Nike Basketball have all the focus and it limits Nike in many ways on their energy potential.

It's a great idea, but I think they sorta limited themselves when they named the stores  House of Hoops. If anything, a NSW store would do very well.
 

 

[sk33termcg33]

I love this post, it gives me perspective and insight as I am a "young'n". Born in '88 so the fact some of you have been consumers since then definitely tells me I have much to learn.

I think, as someone said earlier, the culture has changed to that of hype. With social media, a celeb can tweet out a picture of some shoes that are not considered extraordinary by performance standards and quality of materials, but the hype that person generates will be more than enough for folks to want to buy. It's sad, but with everyone wanting to be "famous" in our culture, people emulate those that are already famous.

It's like buying an $80 shoe that performs just as well as a $175 shoe isn't going to cut it because you didn't pay a ridiculous amount to get them. Sad, but I guess it's just the way things are going to be from here on out, and Nike, being an industry leader with their ears to the ground, sees this and capitalizes.

 

[nikedealer]

Ijapino touche' my man... its the first thing everyone thought of... BUT I still think its doable... but your point is taken as well for branding purposes...

They at some point need to admit with a name change they messed up and just saying they are rebranding their stores. Then they can fit it all in and make it work. Since they in my opinion are failing in the current concept.

Maybe not revenue wise....but I know for a fact it can be soo much more.