SMH Israel bombs Gaza Strip....Israel strikes demolish Hamas compounds, kills 192 injures 250+

[callhimar]

UN law? Occupied illegally?
That may be true but all that means nothing in the real world.
The world can't force Israel to do anything because than 'the world' would be hypocritical.

The Palestinians are the ones who have to compromise at present. People/Entities don't try to win because they will have to compromise in the end.


No one owns land in this world. No land belongs inherently to any group. Land is conquered. So long as we have nationalities, ethnicities, etc. there will be fighting over land. Land constantly changes hands.
No one is obligated to cede land to anyone.

The Israeli's are fighting for what they believe is theirs/should be theirs and the Palestinians are doing the same. Both sides are right while also being wrong.
Are you kidding?

So just F the Geneva Conventions? That doesn't matter anymore because we must conquer our land. Take what we see fit at any given time.

Wait.. I think this started a war. There was this charismatic German man who had this idea. Right, its coming.

Coming.

Hitler. World War II.

The hypocritical thing is that we, the world, have let this go on for so long, not the fact that if we did take action we would be. This is not about winningand losing, its about right and wrong. This behavior of conquer everything we can and forget the people that live there is barbaric. In no way should Israelbelong to the Zionists, just because a fictional book states that it is there land.

Its sad to see people still think like this. We are civilized. We should act like it.

 

[wawaweewa]

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

UN law? Occupied illegally?
That may be true but all that means nothing in the real world.
The world can't force Israel to do anything because than 'the world' would be hypocritical.

The Palestinians are the ones who have to compromise at present. People/Entities don't try to win because they will have to compromise in the end.


No one owns land in this world. No land belongs inherently to any group. Land is conquered. So long as we have nationalities, ethnicities, etc. there will be fighting over land. Land constantly changes hands.
No one is obligated to cede land to anyone.

The Israeli's are fighting for what they believe is theirs/should be theirs and the Palestinians are doing the same. Both sides are right while also being wrong.

Are you kidding?

So just F the Geneva Conventions? That doesn't matter anymore because we must conquer our land. Take what we see fit at any given time.

Wait.. I think this started a war. There was this charismatic German man who had this idea. Right, its coming.

Coming.

Hitler. World War II.

The hypocritical thing is that we, the world, have let this go on for so long, not the fact that if we did take action we would be. This is not about winning and losing, its about right and wrong. This behavior of conquer everything we can and forget the people that live there is barbaric. In no way should Israel belong to the Zionists, just because a fictional book states that it is there land.

Its sad to see people still think like this. We are civilized. We should act like it.




What I stated doesn't concern trying to wipe out entire groups of people. Of course that's beyond wrong by any standard.

If Hitler didn't carry out his killings of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and the disabled in order to totally exterminate these groups than he wouldn'tbe looked at as an evil figure, per se. Apart from Hitler's genocidal actions, what he did wasn't that new to the world. He wasn't the first tostart a war in order to conquer land and he certainly wasn't the last. Alexander the Great, Ghengis Khan, the Roman empire, the Japanese Empire, theBritish Empire, the Spanish empire, the French Empire, on and on.......

What made Hitler evil in his actions was that wanted to exterminate entire groups of people as a result of his paranoid delusions and hatred.



Do you know how situations like this were handled a century ago or even today (in some other areas)? The winning side usually killed some and drove out therest. You had a clear winner and a clear loser.
Every piece of land on this earth has changed hands numerous times.
We have made progress and that's good. However, with progress come stalemates like this in these type of situations. Whereas before one had much spiltblood in the short term, now that blood pilling has been dragged out over a longer period of time. What has really changed then?

This is a complicated situation and there may not be a compromise at present.
When it comes to this situation, one side has to give up more than the other. A compromise at present will not be a zero sum game.

I'm not a militarist and I'm not commenting on the validity or lack thereof of any side in this situation. Both sides have committed abhorrent actionsbut as a whole I don't think either side wants to wipe out the other for the hell of it. Both sides do just want to live. They're not hunting forresources nor do they have ambitions of Empire.

 

[kal ripped ken]

this whole situation is so sad. it makes me think how lucky i am to live here.

the zionists AND hamas need to go. but this won't happen any time soon

 

[mr delorean]

Originally Posted by ERASCISM


Look for more of this when Obama takes office. The funds will keep flowing.

We need a Pres. who has the cojones to cut foreign aid to Israel and the Middle East.

Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich would've done this.

americans wont ever elect the candidate that would actually do whats best for the country. we keep going with slimeball politicians that shouldbe selling cars.

 

[tbone95860]

Video: Israeli jetdestroys rocket launching pad purposely located in residential area...


AIR STRIKES ON GAZA...
MORE THAN 700 WOUNDED...
REACTION...
Iran orders Muslims to defend Palestinians...
Russia asks Israel to end Gaza attacks...
Mosque hit...
100 targets....
Panic...
Escalate?
Israel reinforces troops at border...

[font=ARIAL,VERDANA,HELVETICA][size=+7]

[/size][/font]

[font=ARIAL,VERDANA,HELVETICA]REVENGE[/font]
​

 

[mo matik]

Originally Posted by Craftsy21

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Originally Posted by Supermanblue79

Israeli warplanes retaliating for rocket fire from the Gaza Strip pounded dozens of security compounds across the Hamas-ruled territory

Hamas called off the ceasefire after Israel tried to keep the peace. Hamas continued to fire rockets into Israel.

Consequences.

How can you put a value on life?

192 are dead.

Israel has all the support in the world. They do not need to resort to the magnitude of violence that they do.

If you keep poking somebody who can kick the crap out of you, eventually they are going to smack you a good one.

There's a lot of blurred lines in this conflict, but one thing that isn't unclear is how when one acts, the other responds. Don't act like because one is stronger they don't have the right to respond, even if their blow is a lot fiercer than hamas can conjure up.


So you expect them to just give up?

I mean I understand what you're argument is, and if you were to accuse me of bias you would probably be right, but how can you blame me considering thesituation?

 

[Original Playa Records]

Ya'll dudes can miss me with the no price on life stuff. You don't let bums throw rockets in your zone and not do anything. They already knowwhat's coming.

 

[mo matik]

Originally Posted by BuzzKillington

CallHimAR wrote:

---

BuzzKillington wrote:

---

OGfiend wrote:

---

I'm thoroughly annoyed by all this middle east tension.

See what religion does??

What dose religion have to do with anything ? it a battle of land not religion both muslims and christians fight god's chosen people.


Correction, both Muslims and Christians are spit on, harassed, and thrown out of their homes by Jewish people.



"Their homes" um no, Israel is promised to the Jews by god, hence the Jews be allowed to do what they like. [h3]Genesis 15:13-21 (New International Version)[/h3]
13 Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure."

17 When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. 18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river [sup][a][/sup] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates- 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girga****es and Jebusites."
/thread

Not /thread.





Ok, now /thread.

 

[mo matik]

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

Originally Posted by Lazy B

To the person who said that Europe supports Israel, no they do not. The majority of people in Europe hate Israel. The US is Israel's only ally in the Middle East for reasons that are obvious.

Am I supposed to feel bad for Hamas soldiers and police?
Their job concerns war, right?

There were innocent people killed by Israel in the strikes but these men here aren't part of that category.

So it doesn't bother you at all when you hear about American soldiers dying in Iraq then?

How do you put a value on one life over the other?

Ya'll dudes can miss me with the no price on life stuff. You don't let bums throw rockets in your zone and not do anything. They already know what's coming.

If you honestly believe that the conflict would have ceased if Hamas had not attacked Israel this past week, you're crazy.

And I know you don't think that. The action-reaction garbage is ludicrous, because the conflict has been going on for decades.

Hamas was launching rockets in response to previous Israeli attacks. Those Israeli attacks were in response to suicide bombing. The list goes on and on.

This consequence theory you are all pointing to makes absolutely no sense.

 

[tbone95860]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Hamas was launching rockets in response to previous Israeli attacks. Those Israeli attacks were in response to suicide bombing. The list goes on and on.

Which is exactly why it will continue, with both sides attacking each other.

 

[mo matik]

Rational thought does not apply to the religous warfare and terriorism that's been present in the Middle East for thousands of years.

Could you further elaborate?

Because I thought when another group of people invade your territory illegally, then it is only rational to try to get that territory back.

In fact it would be irrational not to do so.

But that is of course just my opinion.

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by H TOWN HUSTLER

Ya'll dudes can miss me with the no price on life stuff. You don't let bums throw rockets in your zone and not do anything. They already know what's coming.

Eventually when you keep bullying someone, treating them like dirt, taking away their freedoms, don't you think that maybe, just maybe theymight snap? There is so much someone can take.

I condemn violence at all levels, but however, I DO understand how some Palestinians have turned to violence. In the 60s and 70s up until the first Intifada in1987, there was not as much violence towards Israelis from Palestinians inside the territories. A lot of it have more targeted outside of Israel. ButPalestinians were still treated like second class citizens and still occupied.

I basically compare the occupied territories to some extent during the Apartheid era in South Africa. There is so much that you as a human being, with no landand self-determination you would be able to take. Here is a beautiful quote from Nelson Mandela which he said during his trials:

"I have fought against white domination and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die."


Palestinians are not struggling for a "state" but for freedom, liberation and equality and some are prepared to die for all that if there are noother means to achieve it and they see it as their last resort out of desperation.

 

[wawaweewa]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

Originally Posted by Lazy B

To the person who said that Europe supports Israel, no they do not. The majority of people in Europe hate Israel. The US is Israel's only ally in the Middle East for reasons that are obvious.

Am I supposed to feel bad for Hamas soldiers and police?
Their job concerns war, right?

There were innocent people killed by Israel in the strikes but these men here aren't part of that category.

So it doesn't bother you at all when you hear about American soldiers dying in Iraq then?

How do you put a value on one life over the other?

It bothers me in the sense that they're forced to fight in an unnecessary war.
On the other hand, do I think that the Iraqi militants who attack US soldiers are 'terrorists' or wrong in doing so? No. It's not a matter of rightand wrong in those cases. It's just a matter of all soldiers/militants being active participants in the activity of war.


The geography of Israel and the territories makes it extremely difficult for an compromise to take place where all sides get what they want. One side has tocede more than the other.
Neither side is ready to do that so they'll keep on fighting.

 

[mo matik]

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

Originally Posted by Lazy B

To the person who said that Europe supports Israel, no they do not. The majority of people in Europe hate Israel. The US is Israel's only ally in the Middle East for reasons that are obvious.

Am I supposed to feel bad for Hamas soldiers and police?
Their job concerns war, right?

There were innocent people killed by Israel in the strikes but these men here aren't part of that category.

So it doesn't bother you at all when you hear about American soldiers dying in Iraq then?

How do you put a value on one life over the other?

It bothers me in the sense that they're forced to fight in an unnecessary war.
On the other hand, do I think that the Iraqi militants who attack US soldiers are 'terrorists' or wrong in doing so? No. It's not a matter of right and wrong in those cases. It's just a matter of all soldiers/militants being active participants in the activity of war.


The geography of Israel and the territories makes it extremely difficult for an compromise to take place where all sides get what they want. One side has to cede more than the other.
Neither side is ready to do that so they'll keep on fighting.

Agreed, which is why the importance of a 3rd Party to step in and get more involved is so crucial, in my opinion.

Unfortunately, it does not look like anything of that nature will be taking place any time soon.

 

[skunkindunks]

What should Israel have done, let Hamas, a internationally recognized terrorist organization keep shooting rockets into their country? Go stand on your porchand have little kids throw rocks at you. See how long you can take it before you do something. This is a terrorist organization that thrives on violence andpromotes the killing of Jews as the absolute greatest achievement a child could attain. I really think that some NTers need to do a little research beforefeeling sorry for this "group," these are the bad guys.

 

[wawaweewa]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik


Agreed, which is why the importance of a 3rd Party to step in and get more involved is so crucial, in my opinion.

Unfortunately, it does not look like anything of that nature will be taking place any time soon.

No 3rd party can solve/help to solve the situation.
One side has to take less than the other ultimately.

 

[mo matik]

Originally Posted by SkunkInDunks

What should Israel have done, let Hamas, a internationally recognized terrorist organization keep shooting rockets into their country? Go stand on your porch and have little kids throw rocks at you. See how long you can take it before you do something. This is a terrorist organization that thrives on violence and promotes the killing of Jews as the absolute greatest achievement a child could attain. I really think that some NTers need to do a little research before feeling sorry for this "group," these are the bad guys.

Again, trying to justify the murders of 200+ people with rationality in the sense of a consequential theory is nonsense. See above for explanation.

Hamas only calls for the destruction of Israel with the ultimate goal of a Palestinian Islamic state.

They are not the "bad" guys. Nobody is the "bad" guys, nor are their good guys.

This isn't a movie. This isn't a book. No protagonists or antagonists.

And I find it exceedingly ironic that you would ask for people to do more research, followed with no information on the organization but rather ridiculouspictures with no credibility.

No 3rd party can solve this.
moar?

 

[martdizzle23]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Originally Posted by SkunkInDunks

What should Israel have done, let Hamas, a internationally recognized terrorist organization keep shooting rockets into their country? Go stand on your porch and have little kids throw rocks at you. See how long you can take it before you do something. This is a terrorist organization that thrives on violence and promotes the killing of Jews as the absolute greatest achievement a child could attain. I really think that some NTers need to do a little research before feeling sorry for this "group," these are the bad guys.

Again, trying to justify the murders of 200+ people with rationality in the sense of a consequential theory is nonsense. See above for explanation.

Hamas only calls for the destruction of Israel with the ultimate goal of a Palestinian Islamic state.

They are not the "bad" guys. Nobody is the "bad" guys, nor are their good guys.

This isn't a movie. This isn't a book. No protagonists or antagonists.

And I find it exceedingly ironic that you would ask for people to do more research, followed with no information on the organization but rather ridiculous pictures with no credibility.

Mo speaks the truth. dont come in here with pictures just to support your opinion. Hamas was elected for the people of palestine

 

[wawaweewa]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Originally Posted by SkunkInDunks

What should Israel have done, let Hamas, a internationally recognized terrorist organization keep shooting rockets into their country? Go stand on your porch and have little kids throw rocks at you. See how long you can take it before you do something. This is a terrorist organization that thrives on violence and promotes the killing of Jews as the absolute greatest achievement a child could attain. I really think that some NTers need to do a little research before feeling sorry for this "group," these are the bad guys.

Again, trying to justify the murders of 200+ people with rationality in the sense of a consequential theory is nonsense. See above for explanation.

You can't count the killing of Hamas soldiers/paramilitary as 'murders'.
They're active combatants.

That doesn't excuse Israel killing non combatants but Israel is going after military targets and taking into account how densely populated the Gaza stripis .....

 

[mo matik]

You can't count the killing of Hamas soldiers/paramilitary as 'murders'.
They're active combatants.

Yeah you're right, I don't know why I did use that word. Probably for effect.

No 3rd party can solve/help to solve the situation.
One side has to take less than the other ultimately.
Right, but based on that you can say that if you are to isolate the conflict, then resolution can not be reached.

But if a 3rd party was to get involved with strictly humanitarian efforts, I don't see why a resolution is still impossible. I don't think you areconsidering the state of how bad things are today.

As much as I know, Israel is doing well, but if we were to condemn Israels actions through whatever nonviolent means (sanctions in the form of military oreconomic) in an effort to end the violence, Israel would have reason to listen.

 

[wawaweewa]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

No 3rd party can solve/help to solve the situation.
One side has to take less than the other ultimately.

Right, but based on that you can say that if you are to isolate the conflict, then resolution can not be reached.

But if a 3rd party was to get involved with strictly humanitarian efforts, I don't see why a resolution is still impossible. I don't think you are considering the state of how bad things are today.

As much as I know, Israel is doing well, but if we were to condemn Israels actions through whatever nonviolent means (sanctions in the form of military or economic) in an effort to end the violence, Israel would have reason to listen.

There are still many problems with this.
It would not only be up to Israel to 'end the violence' but the various Palestinian factions also. Israel is a centralized state so it could end'all the violence' but can the various Palestinian factions?

Second, if military or economic sanctions were placed on Israel what would preclude them from militarily reoccupying the territories again? Just like manyPalestinians feel that they've been pushed into a corner the same can happen with Israel. If it comes to down surviving as a state or withering away, whatdo you think Israel will choose?

The Israeli government has shown, to the detriment of its citizens, that it is willing to tolerate a certain amount of violent action from Palestinianmilitants.

There is a solution to this problem but at present it requires that the Palestinians accept a lot less than they want. Reality doesn't much care forhistorical grievances or who owned what where and at what time.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by SkunkInDunks

What should Israel have done, let Hamas, a internationally recognized terrorist organization keep shooting rockets into their country? Go stand on your porch and have little kids throw rocks at you. See how long you can take it before you do something.

"Your" porch? You have no idea whose porch this is. The Palestinians were standing on their porches that have belonged to their families forgenerations until the zionist machine removed them by force, which is why this problem exists in the first place.. And they continue to systematically removethem by stealing Palestinian land on the West Bank and building settlements.

 

[mo matik]

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

No 3rd party can solve/help to solve the situation.
One side has to take less than the other ultimately.

Right, but based on that you can say that if you are to isolate the conflict, then resolution can not be reached.

But if a 3rd party was to get involved with strictly humanitarian efforts, I don't see why a resolution is still impossible. I don't think you are considering the state of how bad things are today.

As much as I know, Israel is doing well, but if we were to condemn Israels actions through whatever nonviolent means (sanctions in the form of military or economic) in an effort to end the violence, Israel would have reason to listen.

There are still many problems with this.
It would not only be up to Israel to 'end the violence' but the various Palestinian factions also. Israel is a centralized state so it could end 'all the violence' but can the various Palestinian factions?

Second, if military or economic sanctions were placed on Israel what would preclude them from militarily reoccupying the territories again? Just like many Palestinians feel that they've been pushed into a corner the same can happen with Israel. If it comes to down surviving as a state or withering away, what do you think Israel will choose?

The Israeli government has shown, to the detriment of its citizens, that it is willing to tolerate a certain amount of violent action from Palestinian militants.

There is a solution to this problem but at present it requires that the Palestinians accept a lot less than they want. Reality doesn't much care for historical grievances or who owned what where and at what time.


Don't mistake my argument for a 5 point plan to peace. I'm just trying to point out the necessity for other countries to get involved.

At this point I don't care if Israel exists or not. Like you said, it doesn't matter anymore who was right or wrong so long ago. At this point allthat matters is that the killing has to stop.

The Palestinians do not recognize this, nor do the Israelis.

 

[wawaweewa]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

No 3rd party can solve/help to solve the situation.
One side has to take less than the other ultimately.

Right, but based on that you can say that if you are to isolate the conflict, then resolution can not be reached.

But if a 3rd party was to get involved with strictly humanitarian efforts, I don't see why a resolution is still impossible. I don't think you are considering the state of how bad things are today.

As much as I know, Israel is doing well, but if we were to condemn Israels actions through whatever nonviolent means (sanctions in the form of military or economic) in an effort to end the violence, Israel would have reason to listen.

There are still many problems with this.
It would not only be up to Israel to 'end the violence' but the various Palestinian factions also. Israel is a centralized state so it could end 'all the violence' but can the various Palestinian factions?

Second, if military or economic sanctions were placed on Israel what would preclude them from militarily reoccupying the territories again? Just like many Palestinians feel that they've been pushed into a corner the same can happen with Israel. If it comes to down surviving as a state or withering away, what do you think Israel will choose?

The Israeli government has shown, to the detriment of its citizens, that it is willing to tolerate a certain amount of violent action from Palestinian militants.

There is a solution to this problem but at present it requires that the Palestinians accept a lot less than they want. Reality doesn't much care for historical grievances or who owned what where and at what time.

Don't mistake my argument for a 5 point plan to peace. I'm just trying to point out the necessity for other countries to get involved.

At this point I don't care if Israel exists or not. Like you said, it doesn't matter anymore who was right or wrong so long ago. At this point all that matters is that the killing has to stop.

The Palestinians do not recognize this, nor do the Israelis.

That might be the problem with some Palestinians.
Israel has the upper hand at present and if the Palestinians want to better their situation they have to accept less than what they view as the ideal solution.

If they want to keep fighting until they have the upper hand than that's fine. However, there are consequences for that too.

 

[hazeleyed honey]

Originally Posted by wawaweewa

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Again, trying to justify the murders of 200+ people with rationality in the sense of a consequential theory is nonsense. See above for explanation.

You can't count the killing of Hamas soldiers/paramilitary as 'murders'.
They're active combatants.

That doesn't excuse Israel killing non combatants but Israel is going after military targets and taking into account how densely populated the Gaza strip is .....

As for Hamas, you can thank Mossad and the Israeli government for helping create them. It is no secret that Hamas, in the 80s upon theirfoundation, were supported and funded by Israeli intelligence in order to be a nemesis to the PLO. What better way to create more internal divisions, rift, anddisunity, than to help bring about an Islamist organization against the more secular PLO? Hamas play in favour in a lot of ways to Israel.

As for Israel killing non combatants, in general, since the 2001 Intifada, the toll of civilian deaths killed by the IDF is too much to call it just'mistakes'.