The Adidas "Futurecraft"

1,453
733
Joined Dec 3, 2015
Just a thought.

Compare 4D to Nike Adapt. Ideally, both products are supposed to offer hyper customized fit, but in very different ways. Nike uses a uniform sole for each size but changes upper fit/lockdown with those motors, laces, and an app. That 720 price point went down to 350 because those components are relatively uniform, cheap to manufacture, and can scale/improve with each shoe model iteration. Make a lightweight Adapt running shoe and you'll probably see it even lower (250).

Adidas/Carbon went the way of 3D printing their midsoles (but keeping the upper/lacing uniform). In a white paper, Carbon goes on to say ideally, their lattice printing technology can change lattice density/structure within the midsole, customized for each individual; some spots are firm, some are bouncy. That means a bespoke midsole for each customer. It's difficult to scale for any bespoke model. Adidas gave up on their own after the first Futurecraft model in 2015 and worked with Carbon two years later to increase production.

https://www.carbon3d.com/white-papers/carbon-lattice-innovation-the-adidas-story/

"In the long run, adidas and Carbon will be able to provide each athlete with bespoke performance products tailored to individual physiological data and needs on demand."

https://www.carbon3d.com/news/adida...-digital-light-synthesis-with-futurecraft-4d/

At this point, I don't see how they can create bespoke midsoles unless going to an ID/miadidas model where you have an appointment at a store and get your foot scanned. And at that point, I don't see the price point going any lower; comparative to Nike, I can see them going to the Nike Bespoke model and adding materials. Those shoes are 1k.
 
Last edited:

stann

formerly stanleynhan
1,049
2,225
Joined Jan 21, 2015
Just a thought.

Compare 4D to Nike Adapt. Ideally, both products are supposed to offer hyper customized fit, but in very different ways. Nike uses a uniform sole for each size but changes upper fit/lockdown with those motors, laces, and an app. That 720 price point went down to 350 because those components are relatively uniform, cheap to manufacture, and can scale/improve with each shoe model iteration. Make a lightweight Adapt running shoe and you'll probably see it even lower (250).

Adidas/Carbon went the way of 3D printing their midsoles (but keeping the upper/lacing uniform). In a white paper, Carbon goes on to say ideally, their lattice printing technology can change lattice density/structure within the midsole, customized for each individual; some spots are firm, some are bouncy. That means a bespoke midsole for each customer. It's difficult to scale for any bespoke model. Adidas gave up on their own after the first Futurecraft model in 2015 and worked with Carbon two years later to increase production.

https://www.carbon3d.com/white-papers/carbon-lattice-innovation-the-adidas-story/

"In the long run, adidas and Carbon will be able to provide each athlete with bespoke performance products tailored to individual physiological data and needs on demand."

https://www.carbon3d.com/news/adida...-digital-light-synthesis-with-futurecraft-4d/

At this point, I don't see how they can create bespoke midsoles unless going to an ID/miadidas model where you have an appointment at a store and get your foot scanned. And at that point, I don't see the price point going any lower; comparative to Nike, I can see them going to the Nike Bespoke model and adding materials. Those shoes are 1k.
really like your thinking of doing bespoken for these and truly getting them done the way you want like how Nike does it. definitely would think that the price would be worth it
 
1,340
1,192
Joined Feb 1, 2012
Just a thought.

Compare 4D to Nike Adapt. Ideally, both products are supposed to offer hyper customized fit, but in very different ways. Nike uses a uniform sole for each size but changes upper fit/lockdown with those motors, laces, and an app. That 720 price point went down to 350 because those components are relatively uniform, cheap to manufacture, and can scale/improve with each shoe model iteration. Make a lightweight Adapt running shoe and you'll probably see it even lower (250).

Adidas/Carbon went the way of 3D printing their midsoles (but keeping the upper/lacing uniform). In a white paper, Carbon goes on to say ideally, their lattice printing technology can change lattice density/structure within the midsole, customized for each individual; some spots are firm, some are bouncy. That means a bespoke midsole for each customer. It's difficult to scale for any bespoke model. Adidas gave up on their own after the first Futurecraft model in 2015 and worked with Carbon two years later to increase production.

https://www.carbon3d.com/white-papers/carbon-lattice-innovation-the-adidas-story/

"In the long run, adidas and Carbon will be able to provide each athlete with bespoke performance products tailored to individual physiological data and needs on demand."

https://www.carbon3d.com/news/adida...-digital-light-synthesis-with-futurecraft-4d/

At this point, I don't see how they can create bespoke midsoles unless going to an ID/miadidas model where you have an appointment at a store and get your foot scanned. And at that point, I don't see the price point going any lower; comparative to Nike, I can see them going to the Nike Bespoke model and adding materials. Those shoes are 1k.
4D and Nike adapt are very different types of technology/customizing. 4D is more about cushioning and response with advanced materials/manufacturing methods. Nike is more about battery and charging technology around self lacing. Years back I saw prototypes of Nike’s that had heating, cooling, and moisture wicking/exhaust. I think the autolacing is just the first customization we’ll see from them since it seems to be an easier output vs the other ones mentioned coupled with the whole autolacing story decades ago with back to the future. Personally, not sure how this all plays out since there are so many moving parts with engines, batteries, etc. it seems to be a more expensive, more complicated, but slightly better Reebok pump.

4D seems to offer more potential long term to tailor to the individual. The price point should continue to come down and it would be easier to map a customers foot in the store with technology and then send that with other inputs to a factory to make your personalized shoe and ship it to you. Once your foot is mapped, you can save that to a profile and continue to buy more of the same type of sneakers.
 
1,453
733
Joined Dec 3, 2015
4D seems to offer more potential long term to tailor to the individual. The price point should continue to come down and it would be easier to map a customers foot in the store with technology and then send that with other inputs to a factory to make your personalized shoe and ship it to you. Once your foot is mapped, you can save that to a profile and continue to buy more of the same type of sneakers.
For lifestyle shoes, I can see it being that simple. These ZX and AlphaEdge models, sure. You would scan your static foot once, find your pressure points, print a reproducible bespoke sole, knit your upper and glue it all together. I don't see it being that simple for sport models, like a basketball shoe, or even a running shoe, and think the Adapt approach works better for athletes and for more sports at an increasingly affordable price point.

If you've ever been to a Road Runner Sports store, you can get your running motion analyzed and a shoe recommended based on your movements and how your foot hits the surface of that treadmill. Not bespoke but tailored. I can see Adidas using that business model, but you would still need to install treadmills, cameras, and other equipment in every local Adidas store, and that equipment only provides data for one sport, running. It just doesn't seem to make business sense nor cheap to the consumer if implemented.

When these first came out, I imagined Adidas would create or brand some sort of shoe printing machine, for both the knit and the sole, and have these machines installed in local stores (create some sort of concept 4D store), and that you would get your shoes instantly. That would be cool.
 
1,340
1,192
Joined Feb 1, 2012
For lifestyle shoes, I can see it being that simple. These ZX and AlphaEdge models, sure. You would scan your static foot once, find your pressure points, print a reproducible bespoke sole, knit your upper and glue it all together. I don't see it being that simple for sport models, like a basketball shoe, or even a running shoe, and think the Adapt approach works better for athletes and for more sports at an increasingly affordable price point.

If you've ever been to a Road Runner Sports store, you can get your running motion analyzed and a shoe recommended based on your movements and how your foot hits the surface of that treadmill. Not bespoke but tailored. I can see Adidas using that business model, but you would still need to install treadmills, cameras, and other equipment in every local Adidas store, and that equipment only provides data for one sport, running. It just doesn't seem to make business sense nor cheap to the consumer if implemented.

When these first came out, I imagined Adidas would create or brand some sort of shoe printing machine, for both the knit and the sole, and have these machines installed in local stores (create some sort of concept 4D store), and that you would get your shoes instantly. That would be cool.
Appreciate the response. The technology and design of the shoes is part of what I like most about all these models, not so often discussed on any specific board here....

If you installed machines in each store, you’d need a broad service network for them and need some way of controlling quality. Decentralized manufacturing isn’t a practical approach to scale, especially if the assumption is you want to drive cost=price down.

The Nike adapt, is more about batteries and motors. Is the lock down of that shoe really revolutionary? How much comfort/performance are you giving up when part of the midsole is electronics and battery?

I’ve been inside a RR sports and here in Oregon were fortunate with similar types of stores, track clubs, and access to the brands being discussed and their employees.

Bespoke is just a marketing term for tailored or customized.
 
1,453
733
Joined Dec 3, 2015
Appreciate the response. The technology and design of the shoes is part of what I like most about all these models, not so often discussed on any specific board here....

If you installed machines in each store, you’d need a broad service network for them and need some way of controlling quality. Decentralized manufacturing isn’t a practical approach to scale, especially if the assumption is you want to drive cost=price down.

The Nike adapt, is more about batteries and motors. Is the lock down of that shoe really revolutionary? How much comfort/performance are you giving up when part of the midsole is electronics and battery?

I’ve been inside a RR sports and here in Oregon were fortunate with similar types of stores, track clubs, and access to the brands being discussed and their employees.

Bespoke is just a marketing term for tailored or customized.
It's interesting to think about, considering Nike and Adidas basically launched both around the same time. I think both are trying to solve a fit problem, but long term have different pros/cons. Appreciate the convo.

I think with Adapt, batteries will continue to improve (more charge), motors and sensors can become more advanced (dynamic fit that changes as you walk/run/jump, you mentioned humidity/cooling/heating), etc. They are developing the shoe like a phone. Most phones manufacturers have high/mid/low tiers, and I can see the same technology being applied to a very high end basketball shoe to a lower priced lifestyle product with different levels of capabilities/sensors.

I just don't know where Adidas is going with their tech. 3D printing was designed to solve a model or prototype issue. In that white paper, Carbon created hundreds of different soles with different matricies to figure out what to produce for their product because of the access to 3D printing tech. There are various videos showing the development of the first Nike MAG that had self lacing tech and the prototype, rough edges cut out of foam, wires hanging out everywhere, it's not pretty. Nike didn't make hundreds of prototypes, they hand created several then tested them out, then sent those designs to factory to make samples. Two really different approaches to development. I'm sure Nike has tested 3D printing tech extensively, it just wasn't apparent in the MAG -> Adapt creation vids I've seen.

Now that they have essentially produced two sole designs (runner and alphaedge), what's next for Adidas, you know?
 
1,340
1,192
Joined Feb 1, 2012
It's interesting to think about, considering Nike and Adidas basically launched both around the same time. I think both are trying to solve a fit problem, but long term have different pros/cons. Appreciate the convo.

I think with Adapt, batteries will continue to improve (more charge), motors and sensors can become more advanced (dynamic fit that changes as you walk/run/jump, you mentioned humidity/cooling/heating), etc. They are developing the shoe like a phone. Most phones manufacturers have high/mid/low tiers, and I can see the same technology being applied to a very high end basketball shoe to a lower priced lifestyle product with different levels of capabilities/sensors.

I just don't know where Adidas is going with their tech. 3D printing was designed to solve a model or prototype issue. In that white paper, Carbon created hundreds of different soles with different matricies to figure out what to produce for their product because of the access to 3D printing tech. There are various videos showing the development of the first Nike MAG that had self lacing tech and the prototype, rough edges cut out of foam, wires hanging out everywhere, it's not pretty. Nike didn't make hundreds of prototypes, they hand created several then tested them out, then sent those designs to factory to make samples. Two really different approaches to development. I'm sure Nike has tested 3D printing tech extensively, it just wasn't apparent in the MAG -> Adapt creation vids I've seen.

Now that they have essentially produced two sole designs (runner and alphaedge), what's next for Adidas, you know?
Good analogy with the adapt and phones.

The 3D printing (granted carbons process is different) will evolve and prices will continue to drop. Using it for modeling/prototyping was the first step, but generally speaking a product designed and manufactured in one piece is more durable and less costly than manufacturing a product in pieces and then fastening/joining those pieces. We just haven’t had technology capable to do so until recently.

Really the technology has a ton of headroom, two midsoles now, but how many more can be customized to an individuals foot? Many more than two. After midsole, why not outsoles, uppers, or the entire shoe?
 
Last edited:
3,998
6,150
Joined Jul 7, 2017
I've done both the ZX4000 4D's and the BAPE UB's at Disney World (did 2 different parks each day), and the 4D's actually held their own. Did better than my NB V4's and 350 V2's. V2's just weren't structured enough, and the V4's weren't as cushioned/flexible. Oddly enough, my Kith/Nonnative UB mid's probably did the best...

IMG_0422.jpeg

On the opposite end of the spectrum? These guys. Haven't worn em since. Had a blister on my foot the next day:

IMG_0428.jpeg
 
Last edited:
5,706
4,224
Joined Jan 16, 2016
I've done both the ZX4000 4D's and the BAPE UB's at Disney World (did 2 different parks each day), and the 4D's actually held their own. Did better than my NB V4's and 350 V2's. V2's just weren't structured enough, and the V4's weren't as cushioned/flexible. Oddly enough, my Kith/Nonnative UB mid's probably did the best...

IMG_0422.jpeg

On the opposite end of the spectrum? These guys. Haven't worn em since. Had a blister on my foot the next day:

IMG_0428.jpeg
Trail sole + UB Mid lockdown = GOAT cushioning.
 
894
232
Joined Jul 25, 2012
Need some quick help. Im about to pull the trigger on the Y-3 4D's black, hows the sizing on it?

I'm a size 9 in the Y3 Harigane (Same style but different sole). Also a size 9 in 1.0 ultraboosts.
 
Top Bottom
  AdBlock Detected

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks some useful and important features of our website. For the best possible site experience please take a moment to disable your AdBlocker or head over to our upgrade page to donate for an ad-free experience Upgrade now