The Official NBA Collective Bargaining Thread vol Phased in Hard Cap

[dmbrhs]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

warriors and knicks, prime examples of a big market not leading to wins. Same with Boston for 2 decades and when they won it was because of a gift trade not market size.

See this is my point, does Milwaukee get the gift trade? How about Sacramento? %+!# no, Boston gets it because it's Boston and players want to play their but if the cap is harder and things like sign and trades are abolished it makes it more difficult for things like that to happen.

Besides the spurs.

PHI, LA, CHI, BOS, HOU, DETROIT have won all the championships for the past 30 years is that coincidence?

You mean the Bucks that traded Dirk? 

 

The Kings that had a team full of talent, but no balls? 

  That ain't market size, that's cup size.  They had small cups is all. 

Yeah, LA drafted Magic and Worthy, Bulls drafted MJ and Pip, Boston drafted Bird, and draft day trade for McHale and Chief.  Houston drafted Dream, and Horry too for that matter, Detroit draft Isiah, Dumars, etc.  Nail the draft, win titles.  Duncan and David, drafted.......

  
Not entirely accurate. Sonics drafted Pippen, traded him on draft day straight up for Olden Polynice. It's the what-if scenario NOBODY talks about. If the Sonics don't make that trade, they could have had Pippen, Kemp and GP on the same squad (because they wouldn't have been any better by 1990 when they lucked into the #2 pick)....*sigh*

 

[dmbrhs]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

warriors and knicks, prime examples of a big market not leading to wins. Same with Boston for 2 decades and when they won it was because of a gift trade not market size.

See this is my point, does Milwaukee get the gift trade? How about Sacramento? %+!# no, Boston gets it because it's Boston and players want to play their but if the cap is harder and things like sign and trades are abolished it makes it more difficult for things like that to happen.

Besides the spurs.

PHI, LA, CHI, BOS, HOU, DETROIT have won all the championships for the past 30 years is that coincidence?

You mean the Bucks that traded Dirk? 

 

The Kings that had a team full of talent, but no balls? 

  That ain't market size, that's cup size.  They had small cups is all. 

Yeah, LA drafted Magic and Worthy, Bulls drafted MJ and Pip, Boston drafted Bird, and draft day trade for McHale and Chief.  Houston drafted Dream, and Horry too for that matter, Detroit draft Isiah, Dumars, etc.  Nail the draft, win titles.  Duncan and David, drafted.......

  
Not entirely accurate. Sonics drafted Pippen, traded him on draft day straight up for Olden Polynice. It's the what-if scenario NOBODY talks about. If the Sonics don't make that trade, they could have had Pippen, Kemp and GP on the same squad (because they wouldn't have been any better by 1990 when they lucked into the #2 pick)....*sigh*

 

[CP1708]

^
Good point, yes I forgot that.  Pip is the same as the McHale trade, and the Kobe trade.  And Dirk for that matter.  Draft day trades that worked out for the smart teams, not so much for the dumb ones.  Oh wait, what I mean to say is worked out for the big markets, not so well for the small markets.  Cuz the small markets didn't know Dirk, Kobe, Pip and McHale would all be good someday, but the big markets did.........

 

[CP1708]

^
Good point, yes I forgot that.  Pip is the same as the McHale trade, and the Kobe trade.  And Dirk for that matter.  Draft day trades that worked out for the smart teams, not so much for the dumb ones.  Oh wait, what I mean to say is worked out for the big markets, not so well for the small markets.  Cuz the small markets didn't know Dirk, Kobe, Pip and McHale would all be good someday, but the big markets did.........

 

[beware the underdog]

Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:

---

Props to you fam. You understand.

This LA homer just doesn't get it.

    

 

[beware the underdog]

Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:

---

Props to you fam. You understand.

This LA homer just doesn't get it.

    

 

[al3xis]

Markets do matter -- to an extent. And as OKB alluded to, mostly with free agency.

Lakers do not have a dynasty in the early 2000's if they weren't in a big market. Shaq wanted LA first, the Lakers 2nd. (I sense Dwight is the same way)

I don't think the Knicks could have EVER done what they did the past few years if they weren't in NYC. They didn't hit a home run.. but Melo and Amare wanted the city, not the team. They scrapped 2 1/2 years because they knew they would not come up empty handed with max contracts to offer. I don't think small market teams could ever take that approach.

You need to luck out in the lottery, but you also need to luck out on not just talent, but the individual. Guys like Shaq and LeBron aren't hanging around in small markets for long, guys like Duncan and Durant are more content to do so.

 

[al3xis]

Markets do matter -- to an extent. And as OKB alluded to, mostly with free agency.

Lakers do not have a dynasty in the early 2000's if they weren't in a big market. Shaq wanted LA first, the Lakers 2nd. (I sense Dwight is the same way)

I don't think the Knicks could have EVER done what they did the past few years if they weren't in NYC. They didn't hit a home run.. but Melo and Amare wanted the city, not the team. They scrapped 2 1/2 years because they knew they would not come up empty handed with max contracts to offer. I don't think small market teams could ever take that approach.

You need to luck out in the lottery, but you also need to luck out on not just talent, but the individual. Guys like Shaq and LeBron aren't hanging around in small markets for long, guys like Duncan and Durant are more content to do so.

 

[CP1708]

Beware The Underdog wrote:

---

Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:

---

Props to you fam. You understand.

This LA homer just doesn't get it.

    
You don't even belong on this board, you haven't got a clue about a damn thing so run along. 

You need to luck out in the lottery, but you also need to luck out on not just talent, but the individual. Guys like Shaq and LeBron aren't hanging around in small markets for long, guys like Duncan and Durant are more content to do so. 
So Shaq could have signed with the Clippers then......And Durant and Duncan shouldn't have even been with the teams that took them, no way SA gets Dunc if David was healthy, and Durant shouda been a Blazer, but things happen. 

Didn't "small market" Orlando go full court press for Hill, TMac, and Duncan, and Dunc just said no?  Otherwise, small market team woulda been real big, but also crushed by Hill eventually anyways. 

It's ownership.  OKC has shown Durant that he can and will win as long as they build properly, ala SA.  The Magic tried to as well with Shaq, but I suspect he didn't like Penny much, and Grant was old and Nick failed them big time, if they win, does Shaq still leave?  If Bron won, would he have left? 

 

This small market stuff is excuses, not reasons.  Oh, Cavs and Magic didn't win, small market........uh no, that was not the reason, not at all.  If they had, what would the excuses be then?  Can't win back to backs?  Can't run full decades?  Where does it stop? 

  

 

[CP1708]

Beware The Underdog wrote:

---

Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:

---

Props to you fam. You understand.

This LA homer just doesn't get it.

    
You don't even belong on this board, you haven't got a clue about a damn thing so run along. 

You need to luck out in the lottery, but you also need to luck out on not just talent, but the individual. Guys like Shaq and LeBron aren't hanging around in small markets for long, guys like Duncan and Durant are more content to do so. 
So Shaq could have signed with the Clippers then......And Durant and Duncan shouldn't have even been with the teams that took them, no way SA gets Dunc if David was healthy, and Durant shouda been a Blazer, but things happen. 

Didn't "small market" Orlando go full court press for Hill, TMac, and Duncan, and Dunc just said no?  Otherwise, small market team woulda been real big, but also crushed by Hill eventually anyways. 

It's ownership.  OKC has shown Durant that he can and will win as long as they build properly, ala SA.  The Magic tried to as well with Shaq, but I suspect he didn't like Penny much, and Grant was old and Nick failed them big time, if they win, does Shaq still leave?  If Bron won, would he have left? 

 

This small market stuff is excuses, not reasons.  Oh, Cavs and Magic didn't win, small market........uh no, that was not the reason, not at all.  If they had, what would the excuses be then?  Can't win back to backs?  Can't run full decades?  Where does it stop? 

  

 

[al3xis]

Off the strength of Penny alone, the Magic in summer of 96 > The Lakers on paper for the future. Shaq just wanted LA. and you go to the Lakers if that's the case, not the Clippers. Shaq wanted LA since his draft day.

But, Orlando is an NBA destination for free agents, always will be. Like Miami and like Houston. Warm weather + no tax. But, For Shaq and soon to be Dwight..It's just not LA. Now, places like Sacramento, Milwaukee, Minnesota, Cleveland...they're up against it and always will be. They need to get lucky, and when they do they better capitalize or else the window is shut for a decade or more until things fall in their favor again.

Knicks have some of the worst ownership in all of sports and Melo would have given an arm and a leg to be a Knick this past year. why? It's NY and he wanted NY. That fits him and he wanted that lifestyle..some do, some don't.


If you're the Lakers, Knicks, Bulls...you do have an advantage on the rest of the league. No, it's not significant, but it exists. You think the Knicks and Bucks are on the same playing field when they both have money to throw around? if everything else is equal, you go bigger.

It's not 100% fair, but it shouldn't be. It's New York City and it's Milwaukee.

And it's not NBA exclusive, it's just sports and really the world. Those are places most want to be.
*I have no sympathy for the owners of these 'small markets'..they know the deal when they sign on. As should their front office, fans, etc. 

 

[al3xis]

Off the strength of Penny alone, the Magic in summer of 96 > The Lakers on paper for the future. Shaq just wanted LA. and you go to the Lakers if that's the case, not the Clippers. Shaq wanted LA since his draft day.

But, Orlando is an NBA destination for free agents, always will be. Like Miami and like Houston. Warm weather + no tax. But, For Shaq and soon to be Dwight..It's just not LA. Now, places like Sacramento, Milwaukee, Minnesota, Cleveland...they're up against it and always will be. They need to get lucky, and when they do they better capitalize or else the window is shut for a decade or more until things fall in their favor again.

Knicks have some of the worst ownership in all of sports and Melo would have given an arm and a leg to be a Knick this past year. why? It's NY and he wanted NY. That fits him and he wanted that lifestyle..some do, some don't.


If you're the Lakers, Knicks, Bulls...you do have an advantage on the rest of the league. No, it's not significant, but it exists. You think the Knicks and Bucks are on the same playing field when they both have money to throw around? if everything else is equal, you go bigger.

It's not 100% fair, but it shouldn't be. It's New York City and it's Milwaukee.

And it's not NBA exclusive, it's just sports and really the world. Those are places most want to be.
*I have no sympathy for the owners of these 'small markets'..they know the deal when they sign on. As should their front office, fans, etc. 

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by Al3xis


And it's not NBA exclusive, it's just sports and really the world. Those are places most want to be.

Ok, good you put this, that's what I was coming to say next. 

  Agreed, regardless of sport, that helps, but it doesn't mean you can't win.  Packers and Brewers are winning right now, Bucks?  Hey, if they get one of those guys I listed instead of Bogut, they might be too.  Luck happens.  People are using small market as an excuse, period.  I don't see any New York titles, but they always just gloss over that fact.  Yankees lose and people ignore it like nothing, win and they blame small market size elsewhere. 

  I suppose the Cubs should win more titles, being in Chicago and all........market size helping me much? 

And you said Cleveland, win now or dead for a decade, remember, they won the lottery again this year.  If the right player came out, like a Wall, they coulda been right back in the mix in no time.  Need smart patient minds to run things, not overreact all the time.  But for the most part, I hear your win now or never type feel, smart GM's fix that though.  If you're taking Ferdette in the top 10, I don't wanna hear market size when they stay losing.  I don't wanna hear that @#$% one single bit. 

  

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by Al3xis


And it's not NBA exclusive, it's just sports and really the world. Those are places most want to be.

Ok, good you put this, that's what I was coming to say next. 

  Agreed, regardless of sport, that helps, but it doesn't mean you can't win.  Packers and Brewers are winning right now, Bucks?  Hey, if they get one of those guys I listed instead of Bogut, they might be too.  Luck happens.  People are using small market as an excuse, period.  I don't see any New York titles, but they always just gloss over that fact.  Yankees lose and people ignore it like nothing, win and they blame small market size elsewhere. 

  I suppose the Cubs should win more titles, being in Chicago and all........market size helping me much? 

And you said Cleveland, win now or dead for a decade, remember, they won the lottery again this year.  If the right player came out, like a Wall, they coulda been right back in the mix in no time.  Need smart patient minds to run things, not overreact all the time.  But for the most part, I hear your win now or never type feel, smart GM's fix that though.  If you're taking Ferdette in the top 10, I don't wanna hear market size when they stay losing.  I don't wanna hear that @#$% one single bit. 

  

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by Al3xis


I don't think the Knicks could have EVER done what they did the past few years if they weren't in NYC. They didn't hit a home run.. but Melo and Amare wanted the city, not the team. They scrapped 2 1/2 years because they knew they would not come up empty handed with max contracts to offer. I don't think small market teams could ever take that approach.

we could have EASILY struck out
and according to many people we DID. we got two overrated no defense playing fake stars

the knicks were "raped" in the trade

the knciks are not known for getting superstars in the off season. for various reasons

i had a horrible day at work and coming back to this arguing millionairess vs billionaires really upsets me man 

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by Al3xis


I don't think the Knicks could have EVER done what they did the past few years if they weren't in NYC. They didn't hit a home run.. but Melo and Amare wanted the city, not the team. They scrapped 2 1/2 years because they knew they would not come up empty handed with max contracts to offer. I don't think small market teams could ever take that approach.

we could have EASILY struck out
and according to many people we DID. we got two overrated no defense playing fake stars

the knicks were "raped" in the trade

the knciks are not known for getting superstars in the off season. for various reasons

i had a horrible day at work and coming back to this arguing millionairess vs billionaires really upsets me man 

 

[scotty pimpin]

All this bickering for nothing because at the end of this lockout, the owners will win and the players will lose - and that's the way it should be. The players are going to lose all the money they're fighting for right now because the owners/Stern has the ability to do what? Cut the season short. Yup, resulting in cutting pay. That same exact money these players are fighting for is going to pointless because they're already going to lose 600 million by the time the season starts. Dumb @!% fake smart celebrity %%+@+. My advice? Take the @+@$!*% deal now and shut the #+#@ up.

 

[scotty pimpin]

All this bickering for nothing because at the end of this lockout, the owners will win and the players will lose - and that's the way it should be. The players are going to lose all the money they're fighting for right now because the owners/Stern has the ability to do what? Cut the season short. Yup, resulting in cutting pay. That same exact money these players are fighting for is going to pointless because they're already going to lose 600 million by the time the season starts. Dumb @!% fake smart celebrity %%+@+. My advice? Take the @+@$!*% deal now and shut the #+#@ up.

 

[gllahone84]

Americans across the country are making sacrifices much more severe than rich professional athletes.

Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/...-now-what/#ixzz1aVr0Konw

 

[gllahone84]

Americans across the country are making sacrifices much more severe than rich professional athletes.

Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/...-now-what/#ixzz1aVr0Konw

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by CP1708

  I don't see any New York titles, but they always just gloss over that fact.  Yankees lose and people ignore it like nothing, win and they blame small market size elsewhere. 

  I suppose the Cubs should win more titles, being in Chicago and all........market size helping me much? 

  

hey we got two 

but yeah we know it aint cuz of market but.the sad thing is we could have had wilt but we went in with a terrible offer 

give us phil back 

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by CP1708

  I don't see any New York titles, but they always just gloss over that fact.  Yankees lose and people ignore it like nothing, win and they blame small market size elsewhere. 

  I suppose the Cubs should win more titles, being in Chicago and all........market size helping me much? 

  

hey we got two 

but yeah we know it aint cuz of market but.the sad thing is we could have had wilt but we went in with a terrible offer 

give us phil back 

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by SCOTTY PIMPIN

All this bickering for nothing because at the end of this lockout, the owners will win and the players will lose - and that's the way it should be. The players are going to lose all the money they're fighting for right now because the owners/Stern has the ability to do what? Cut the season short. Yup, resulting in cutting pay. That same exact money these players are fighting for is going to pointless because they're already going to lose 600 million by the time the season starts. Dumb @!% fake smart celebrity %%+@+. My advice? Take the @+@$!*% deal now and shut the #+#@ up.

as much as i disagree with his motives, dude is right
can anyone really dispute the fact that the players will lose this?

 

[duba169]

Originally Posted by SCOTTY PIMPIN

All this bickering for nothing because at the end of this lockout, the owners will win and the players will lose - and that's the way it should be. The players are going to lose all the money they're fighting for right now because the owners/Stern has the ability to do what? Cut the season short. Yup, resulting in cutting pay. That same exact money these players are fighting for is going to pointless because they're already going to lose 600 million by the time the season starts. Dumb @!% fake smart celebrity %%+@+. My advice? Take the @+@$!*% deal now and shut the #+#@ up.

as much as i disagree with his motives, dude is right
can anyone really dispute the fact that the players will lose this?

 

[al3xis]

I just look at like this (with money being equal):

We have examples where guys purely sought out big markets to go play in regardless of the roster, coach, GM or owner.

I can not think of one where a player sought out a small market, not choosing to stay put but actually saying I want to be in ______. And that likely will never happen.

the advantage is small, but it does exist when certain players/instances pop up.


Dub, we could have, but we didn't. Donnie Walsh is a smart guy and his philosophy from how he built a team in Indiana to how he ran things in NY was a complete 180. And I don't think anything changed but his address.