The Official NBA PG Thread

[bittersweet]

Originally Posted by Jehlers02

Originally Posted by bittersweet

Jehlers02 wrote:

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Dwele Farooq Al Suleed Afzul wrote:

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Jehlers02 wrote:

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If you dont think D-Will or CP3 in the top 2 you shouldnt be taken seriously. I dont give a !%$% about stats they are the best 2 players at the position. There is no debate to this.

If we hop in a time machine and boogey back to 2008, right with you. In 2010, no sir. Admit it, you haven't even seen CP3 play this season. You're just remembering the good ol' days. Hopefully coaches are smart enough not to, but it's that type of thinking that has Russ still not cemented into his first All Star berth in his home town of LA

Do you care about winning?

RIGHT NOW, right NOW. Westbrook deserves that spot over Paul. 

Plus, last time I checked OKC has a better record than NOH.


Last time i checked Chris Paul isnt playing with Durant. Last time i checked the Hornets are 6th in the West. Look at how terrible that team is.
Both of you shush
KD wasn't playing for about 2 weeks and Westbrook was still putting up those numbers. 

 

[dwele farooq al suleed afzul]

Originally Posted by JD617

Like, if you can't use stats

You can, you're just using them horribly. You're only using per game stats even though Chris has played less minutes per game than the other three guys you compared him to earlier. Also, for some reason you're ignoring his shooting percentages which are basically off the charts at 49/46/91, giving him a TS% of 61.4%, best in the league among PGs. Throw in his defense, which has been among the best in the league at the PG position, and it's ridiculous to act like he hasn't been great this year.

As for team success, look at that roster and tell me if you think they have any business being 14-10 in the West. People thought he'd be traded because they didn't think this team would even be in contention. David West is the only other guy on that team that can even be described as decent.

I got actual quotes from parties involved
You have one quote from a guy putting the blame on his own shoulders, something that most players do after a loss. You think that cliche changes anything?
Westbrook's numbers without Durant are actually even slightly better. He single handedly beat the Celtics with no Durant, gave them 31/6/4.  Team record is 3-1, 26.5pts, 8 assists. Against Rose in 2 games, 1-1 record, 21.5/6.5/7.5 for Russ and Rose is 19.5/7.5/4.


Chris Paul is not a good defender either, plays passing lanes, that's it.

This wasn't a typical cliche, "I could have played better, made some mistakes I don't normally make," quote. This wasn't about the team, the question and the quote were directly about Chris Paul vs Russell Westbrook head to head; Chris, Westbrook busted your @#@ AGAIN. why does it keep happening?

They have a decent roster. Ariza was a top FA just 2 seasons ago, David West has been an all star twice, although I had issue with his selection. Emeka is healthy, no top 2 point guard is letting him team lose 9 out of 12, and putting up pedestrian @#@ stats while it happens. Some might argue he is quitting, unhappy with the team situation.

They are 3-9 in their last 12. 3-9!!

Looks like denial ain't just a river in Egypt. Your boy is declining, or quitting, either way, he drops down a few notches.

And yes, BJ destroyed mostly Jason Terry tonight, bought the Bucks back from 20 down in the second half. He made a few mistakes too, took a TERRIBLE shot that could have lost the game really, but then Dirk missed his attempt to tie the game so they dodged that bullet

 

[dwele farooq al suleed afzul]

Originally Posted by JD617

Like, if you can't use stats

You can, you're just using them horribly. You're only using per game stats even though Chris has played less minutes per game than the other three guys you compared him to earlier. Also, for some reason you're ignoring his shooting percentages which are basically off the charts at 49/46/91, giving him a TS% of 61.4%, best in the league among PGs. Throw in his defense, which has been among the best in the league at the PG position, and it's ridiculous to act like he hasn't been great this year.

As for team success, look at that roster and tell me if you think they have any business being 14-10 in the West. People thought he'd be traded because they didn't think this team would even be in contention. David West is the only other guy on that team that can even be described as decent.

I got actual quotes from parties involved
You have one quote from a guy putting the blame on his own shoulders, something that most players do after a loss. You think that cliche changes anything?
Westbrook's numbers without Durant are actually even slightly better. He single handedly beat the Celtics with no Durant, gave them 31/6/4.  Team record is 3-1, 26.5pts, 8 assists. Against Rose in 2 games, 1-1 record, 21.5/6.5/7.5 for Russ and Rose is 19.5/7.5/4.


Chris Paul is not a good defender either, plays passing lanes, that's it.

This wasn't a typical cliche, "I could have played better, made some mistakes I don't normally make," quote. This wasn't about the team, the question and the quote were directly about Chris Paul vs Russell Westbrook head to head; Chris, Westbrook busted your @#@ AGAIN. why does it keep happening?

They have a decent roster. Ariza was a top FA just 2 seasons ago, David West has been an all star twice, although I had issue with his selection. Emeka is healthy, no top 2 point guard is letting him team lose 9 out of 12, and putting up pedestrian @#@ stats while it happens. Some might argue he is quitting, unhappy with the team situation.

They are 3-9 in their last 12. 3-9!!

Looks like denial ain't just a river in Egypt. Your boy is declining, or quitting, either way, he drops down a few notches.

And yes, BJ destroyed mostly Jason Terry tonight, bought the Bucks back from 20 down in the second half. He made a few mistakes too, took a TERRIBLE shot that could have lost the game really, but then Dirk missed his attempt to tie the game so they dodged that bullet

 

[kiddin like jason]

He's taking 11 shots a game and still controlling what the other nine players on the court do at all times.

Should he be taking more than 11 shots a game? Probably. But he has a bear cage on his knee. He hasn't made any excuses, and I'm not even doing that right now, but logic tells me that's probably restricting him.

He's finding good shots for others. They aren't making them. That's why his assist totals have declined during the last three weeks. That's why they're 3-9.

Chris Paul is not a good defender, plays passing lanes, that's it.
Chris Paul is a great team defender, which is all that really matters.

The Hornets are still one of the top five defenses, despite this slump. 92 a game. He anchors it. Defense has nothing to do with these recent struggles.

 

[kiddin like jason]

He's taking 11 shots a game and still controlling what the other nine players on the court do at all times.

Should he be taking more than 11 shots a game? Probably. But he has a bear cage on his knee. He hasn't made any excuses, and I'm not even doing that right now, but logic tells me that's probably restricting him.

He's finding good shots for others. They aren't making them. That's why his assist totals have declined during the last three weeks. That's why they're 3-9.

Chris Paul is not a good defender, plays passing lanes, that's it.
Chris Paul is a great team defender, which is all that really matters.

The Hornets are still one of the top five defenses, despite this slump. 92 a game. He anchors it. Defense has nothing to do with these recent struggles.

 

[JD617]

You say all he does is play passing lanes like it's meaningless, he leads the league in steal % by a huge margin, so if that's all he does, he's pretty damn good at it.

As of now, the Hornets are the 4th best defensive team in the league, and Chris is the best defensive player on the team, so I think he's doing something right on that end.

 

[JD617]

You say all he does is play passing lanes like it's meaningless, he leads the league in steal % by a huge margin, so if that's all he does, he's pretty damn good at it.

As of now, the Hornets are the 4th best defensive team in the league, and Chris is the best defensive player on the team, so I think he's doing something right on that end.

 

[dwele farooq al suleed afzul]

Originally Posted by JD617


You say all he does is play passing lanes like it's meaningless, he leads the league in steal % by a huge margin, so if that's all he does, he's pretty damn good at it.

As of now, the Hornets are the 4th best defensive team in the league, and Chris is the best defensive player on the team, so I think he's doing something right on that end.

They allow 92 but score 94. I'd credit their defense to Emeka moreso than Chris. They allow 44%fg, the Thunder allow 46%, pretty insignificant of a difference really, especially to hang your hat on that 2% while still losing and falling from 11-1 to 6th seed in the West and only 2 games in.

Now when you talk about a guy who can lock down an all star, a guy who is allegedly better than them, to 5pts in a 4th quarter, I'm excited, moreso than a guy who can get 3 steals (1 more than Russ btw) but the guy he is guarding still goes off on him, so much it is a point of discussion after the game.

 

[dwele farooq al suleed afzul]

Originally Posted by JD617


You say all he does is play passing lanes like it's meaningless, he leads the league in steal % by a huge margin, so if that's all he does, he's pretty damn good at it.

As of now, the Hornets are the 4th best defensive team in the league, and Chris is the best defensive player on the team, so I think he's doing something right on that end.

They allow 92 but score 94. I'd credit their defense to Emeka moreso than Chris. They allow 44%fg, the Thunder allow 46%, pretty insignificant of a difference really, especially to hang your hat on that 2% while still losing and falling from 11-1 to 6th seed in the West and only 2 games in.

Now when you talk about a guy who can lock down an all star, a guy who is allegedly better than them, to 5pts in a 4th quarter, I'm excited, moreso than a guy who can get 3 steals (1 more than Russ btw) but the guy he is guarding still goes off on him, so much it is a point of discussion after the game.

 

[JD617]

I'd credit their defense to Emeka moreso than Chris.

Chris's defensive rating is 3 points lower, plus the Hornets' plus/minus actually improves when Emeka isn't on the court as opposed to taking a massive 14.7-point nosedive when Chris Paul isn't on the court, so I think you're wrong.

 

[JD617]

I'd credit their defense to Emeka moreso than Chris.

Chris's defensive rating is 3 points lower, plus the Hornets' plus/minus actually improves when Emeka isn't on the court as opposed to taking a massive 14.7-point nosedive when Chris Paul isn't on the court, so I think you're wrong.

 

[dwele farooq al suleed afzul]

Plus minus now? I just looked up Westbrook's and it's a -1. Meanwhile BJ Mullens is a +24.

It's immaterial though who anchors the defense, dudes in the top 5 pg category are running all through it either way.

Well wake me when CP3 wins the individual matchup, or even the game, against Rondo/Westbrook/Rose/Williams. Until then I'll take my surface stats and evidence of watching the games and seeing him get done in.

 

[dwele farooq al suleed afzul]

Plus minus now? I just looked up Westbrook's and it's a -1. Meanwhile BJ Mullens is a +24.

It's immaterial though who anchors the defense, dudes in the top 5 pg category are running all through it either way.

Well wake me when CP3 wins the individual matchup, or even the game, against Rondo/Westbrook/Rose/Williams. Until then I'll take my surface stats and evidence of watching the games and seeing him get done in.

 

[everysingletime]

Originally Posted by JD617

I'd credit their defense to Emeka moreso than Chris.

Chris's defensive rating is 3 points lower, plus the Hornets' plus/minus actually improves when Emeka isn't on the court as opposed to taking a massive 14.7-point nosedive when Chris Paul isn't on the court, so I think you're wrong.
You ever consider the plus minus takes a nosedive when CP3 is out for other reasons? 

I'm sure plus minus for the suns takes a nosedive when Steve Nash gets taken out of the lineup as well.  Does that mean Nash is a great defender?

Guys are too in love with advanced statistics.  An intelligent person can argue anything with advanced statistics I swear. 

 

[everysingletime]

Originally Posted by JD617

I'd credit their defense to Emeka moreso than Chris.

Chris's defensive rating is 3 points lower, plus the Hornets' plus/minus actually improves when Emeka isn't on the court as opposed to taking a massive 14.7-point nosedive when Chris Paul isn't on the court, so I think you're wrong.
You ever consider the plus minus takes a nosedive when CP3 is out for other reasons? 

I'm sure plus minus for the suns takes a nosedive when Steve Nash gets taken out of the lineup as well.  Does that mean Nash is a great defender?

Guys are too in love with advanced statistics.  An intelligent person can argue anything with advanced statistics I swear. 

 

[JD617]

BJ Mullens has played 22 minutes this season, that's not a big enough sample size.

Well wake me when CP3 wins the individual matchup, or even the game, against Rondo/Westbrook/Rose/Williams. Until then I'll take my surface stats and evidence of watching the games and seeing him get done in.
Okay.

 

[JD617]

BJ Mullens has played 22 minutes this season, that's not a big enough sample size.

Well wake me when CP3 wins the individual matchup, or even the game, against Rondo/Westbrook/Rose/Williams. Until then I'll take my surface stats and evidence of watching the games and seeing him get done in.
Okay.

 

[JD617]

You ever consider the plus minus takes a nosedive when CP3 is out for other reasons?
Sure, but how does that explain this?


Defensive Rating
[table][tr][td]1.[/td][td]Kevin Garnett-BOS[/td][td]92.6[/td][/tr][tr][td]2.[/td][td]Dwight Howard-ORL[/td][td]93.1[/td][/tr][tr][td]3.[/td][td]Chris Paul-NOH[/td][td]96.4[/td][/tr][/table]


Defensive Win Shares
[table][tr][td]1.[/td][td]Dwight Howard-ORL[/td][td]2.1[/td][/tr][tr][td]2.[/td][td]Kevin Garnett-BOS[/td][td]2.0[/td][/tr][tr][td]3.[/td][td]LeBron James-MIA[/td][td]1.8[/td][/tr][tr][td]4.[/td][td]Chris Paul-NOH[/td][td]1.8[/td][/tr][/table]

Steal Pct
[table][tr][td]1.[/td][td]Chris Paul-NOH[/td][td]4.9[/td][/tr][tr][td]2.[/td][td]Corey Brewer-MIN[/td][td]3.7[/td][/tr][tr][td]3.[/td][td]Rajon Rondo-BOS[/td][td]3.2[/td][/tr][tr][td]4.[/td][td]Stephen Curry-GSW[/td][td]3.2[/td][/tr][tr][td]5.[/td][td]John Wall-WAS[/td][td]3.1[/td][/tr][/table]

 

[JD617]

You ever consider the plus minus takes a nosedive when CP3 is out for other reasons?
Sure, but how does that explain this?


Defensive Rating
[table][tr][td]1.[/td][td]Kevin Garnett-BOS[/td][td]92.6[/td][/tr][tr][td]2.[/td][td]Dwight Howard-ORL[/td][td]93.1[/td][/tr][tr][td]3.[/td][td]Chris Paul-NOH[/td][td]96.4[/td][/tr][/table]


Defensive Win Shares
[table][tr][td]1.[/td][td]Dwight Howard-ORL[/td][td]2.1[/td][/tr][tr][td]2.[/td][td]Kevin Garnett-BOS[/td][td]2.0[/td][/tr][tr][td]3.[/td][td]LeBron James-MIA[/td][td]1.8[/td][/tr][tr][td]4.[/td][td]Chris Paul-NOH[/td][td]1.8[/td][/tr][/table]

Steal Pct
[table][tr][td]1.[/td][td]Chris Paul-NOH[/td][td]4.9[/td][/tr][tr][td]2.[/td][td]Corey Brewer-MIN[/td][td]3.7[/td][/tr][tr][td]3.[/td][td]Rajon Rondo-BOS[/td][td]3.2[/td][/tr][tr][td]4.[/td][td]Stephen Curry-GSW[/td][td]3.2[/td][/tr][tr][td]5.[/td][td]John Wall-WAS[/td][td]3.1[/td][/tr][/table]

 

[dwele farooq al suleed afzul]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html seriously.

 

[dwele farooq al suleed afzul]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html seriously.

 

[JD617]

I already know this is coming, so I'll just say this, obviously none of that stuff is perfect, and I'm not saying he's THE best defensive PG in the league, but this season he's been one of them.

 

[JD617]

I already know this is coming, so I'll just say this, obviously none of that stuff is perfect, and I'm not saying he's THE best defensive PG in the league, but this season he's been one of them.

 

[everysingletime]

Look at who is 4th in steal percentages. 

I guess you can argue Stephen Curry is a great defender using that statistics. 

I don't know how defensive rating is calculated or how defensive win shares is calculated.  But I'm willing to bet there is a flaw with the math.

I'm not liking the trend with these advanced statistics.

Like I've said in an earlier post Hollinger wrote an article using this %%!! to argue that D'antoni's Suns played better defense than the 2004 Pistons. 

 

[everysingletime]

Look at who is 4th in steal percentages. 

I guess you can argue Stephen Curry is a great defender using that statistics. 

I don't know how defensive rating is calculated or how defensive win shares is calculated.  But I'm willing to bet there is a flaw with the math.

I'm not liking the trend with these advanced statistics.

Like I've said in an earlier post Hollinger wrote an article using this %%!! to argue that D'antoni's Suns played better defense than the 2004 Pistons.