Why do you believe that there is a god?

[mo matik]

I believe in God because, for me, it's simply a more rational conclusion. After learning about world history, after learning about biological systems, values, different modes of governance and anthropology, it is a more rational conclusion. I know how strange that might sound to many, but it's true.

This might sound strange to many, but this is because Islamic values, and the core fundamentals of our faith, I think are very misunderstood.

I believe that there are many others better capable at explaining faith than myself. This is by far the best intro lecture I've seen. If you are serious about actually considering the possibility of a God, rather than reaffirming your belief in a lack thereof, I highly recommend this video. Dr. Jeffrey Lang is a Mathematics professor at the U of Kansas. Here he talks about issues with suffering (Why is there suffering if there is a God?), Islamic fundamental values and how they differ significantly from Christianity. He also properly exhibits how to read the Qur'an through his lecture, and briefly goes over his journey from atheism to Islam.



My criticisms with the popular atheist movement is that they scapegoat regularly, ironically while criticizing religious people for doing the very same thing. Scott Atran is an atheist, one of the worlds leading anthropologists, and an amazing scholar.  He sums up his criticism with Harris and Dawkins in his book review of Sam Harris' "The Moral Landscape." This is also highly recommended and a must read for anyone who cares, not about winning an argument.

http://nationalinterest.o...e-nearly-everything-4893

Here he is at Beyond Belief 2.0 where he discusses the influence of religions, and specifically their motivations to do good or bad. He also debated Sam Harris at the event, which is also on youtube. In the video he talks a lot about suicide bombing, the psychology and the truth about what has been going on in this jihadi efforts. Atran has spent 30 years in the field interviewing failed suicide bombers, their families, etc.

http://video.google.com/v...ocid=5701806759199654816

There is one more source I would recommend. Andrew Howie, Rhodes scholar what drew him to Islam and caused him to convert a few months ago. He explains better than myself how that process was supplemented with his education.

http://muslimmatters.org/...that-drew-me-to-islam-2/

 

[logbi]

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Originally Posted by logbi

sillyputty is a perfect human being!

let's all go ahead and be atheists so we can be perfect like him!

Now you're deflecting because you're offended.
I'm not perfect.
Not by any means. 

But lets be honest, there is no point in suggesting arguments that don't make sense.

I don't have all the answers but if you're going to say you do when you clearly don't, you're no better than anyone else. 

Saying illogical statements with no evidence doesn't make you a good or bad person. It just makes you someone that makes poor arguments. 

wow...justifications! whatever you say..... loli do believe in God. let me guess what you're gonna tell me........you gonna be asking me to prove God does exist, provide facts, or something to that effect.

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by logbi

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Originally Posted by logbi

sillyputty is a perfect human being!

let's all go ahead and be atheists so we can be perfect like him!

Now you're deflecting because you're offended.
I'm not perfect.
Not by any means. 

But lets be honest, there is no point in suggesting arguments that don't make sense.

I don't have all the answers but if you're going to say you do when you clearly don't, you're no better than anyone else. 

Saying illogical statements with no evidence doesn't make you a good or bad person. It just makes you someone that makes poor arguments. 

wow...justifications! whatever you say..... loli do believe in God. let me guess what you're gonna tell me........you gonna be asking me to prove God does exist, provide facts, or something to that effect.

Why do you believe in a god? 

 

[logbi]

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Originally Posted by logbi

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Now you're deflecting because you're offended.
I'm not perfect.
Not by any means. 

But lets be honest, there is no point in suggesting arguments that don't make sense.

I don't have all the answers but if you're going to say you do when you clearly don't, you're no better than anyone else. 

Saying illogical statements with no evidence doesn't make you a good or bad person. It just makes you someone that makes poor arguments. 

wow...justifications! whatever you say..... loli do believe in God. let me guess what you're gonna tell me........you gonna be asking me to prove God does exist, provide facts, or something to that effect.

Why do you believe in a god? 

coz He exists.

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

I believe in God because, for me, it's simply a more rational conclusion. After learning about world history, after learning about biological systems, values, different modes of governance and anthropology, it is a more rational conclusion. I know how strange that might sound to many, but it's true.

This might sound strange to many, but this is because Islamic values, and the core fundamentals of our faith, I think are very misunderstood.

I believe that there are many others better capable at explaining faith than myself. This is by far the best intro lecture I've seen. If you are serious about actually considering the possibility of a God, rather than reaffirming your belief in a lack thereof, I highly recommend this video. Dr. Jeffrey Lang is a Mathematics professor at the U of Kansas. Here he talks about issues with suffering (Why is there suffering if there is a God?), Islamic fundamental values and how they differ significantly from Christianity. He also properly exhibits how to read the Qur'an through his lecture, and briefly goes over his journey from atheism to Islam.



My criticisms with the popular atheist movement is that they scapegoat regularly, ironically while criticizing religious people for doing the very same thing. Scott Atran is an atheist, one of the worlds leading anthropologists, and an amazing scholar.� He sums up his criticism with Harris and Dawkins in his book review of Sam Harris' "The Moral Landscape." This is also highly recommended and a must read for anyone who cares, not about winning an argument.

http://nationalinterest.o...e-nearly-everything-4893

Here he is at Beyond Belief 2.0 where he discusses the influence of religions, and specifically their motivations to do good or bad. He also debated Sam Harris at the event, which is also on youtube. In the video he talks a lot about suicide bombing, the psychology and the truth about what has been going on in this jihadi efforts. Atran has spent 30 years in the field interviewing failed suicide bombers, their families, etc.

http://video.google.com/v...ocid=5701806759199654816

There is one more source I would recommend. Andrew Howie, Rhodes scholar what drew him to Islam and caused him to convert a few months ago. He explains better than myself how that process was supplemented with his education.

http://muslimmatters.org/...that-drew-me-to-islam-2/

I've actually seen these talks and debates. 
I saw them on reddit.com/r/atheism

the fact of the matter is, no matter how much "education" these guys have, it doesn't make the existence of a god more or less probable. Thats an appeal to authority. Furthermore, when you approach things from the view of "islam" it doesn't make the claim of god more valid. In fact you're just trying to use another faith system to justify your beliefs...but why not christianity? If you can disprove christianity from the view of islam then it should be no surprise why christians discount your view. The same methods you discount christianity with are the same ones I discount BOTH religions with. You see what I'm getting at here? 

btw, those "converts" you speak of are comparing values of different religions, not the absolute claims of the existence of a god. They just wanted to play by different rules in the same game, not to stop playing the game. Know the difference. 

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by logbi

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Originally Posted by logbi



wow...justifications! whatever you say..... loli do believe in God. let me guess what you're gonna tell me........you gonna be asking me to prove God does exist, provide facts, or something to that effect.

Why do you believe in a god? 

coz He exists.

OK...since you've predicted what I'm going to ask you...
How do you know this god exists and can you prove it? 

 

[supermanblue79]

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Originally Posted by Supermanblue79

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Where is your proof that god exists?
and saying "I believe because HE is" is not proper grammar. 

I've been out of school a long time.  Proper grammar is not as important these days.

I'm the proof.  All of the things that HE's done in my life are all the proof that I need.

What has "god" reasonably done for you that you didnt do yourself?

Why does "god" get all the credit when you've worked long and hard to change your life and to move forward? You do all the work and this entity gets all the credit?
What happened to rewarding yourself and thanking yourself for being successful? Where was that god when you were down and out? If this god is responsible for the good then it is responsible for the bad and lowest moments of your life. You can't ignore that consistency.

Saying "you're the proof" doesn't explain anything. Nor is that a convincing argument. You can't skate from the argument saying "well i have my proof so there" Thats unfair and illogical. You have not asserted what reasonable proof this is for your argument.

Additionally, not being able to explain things does not mean there is a "god" nor does it mean that it works in your favor. 

Your faith and beliefs like all other notions or ideas are not free from criticism or analysis. Religion is not exempt from being challenged. 

Great Questions.
When I was down and out, HE was waiting on me to get up and meet him halfway.
GOD has never been responsible for the lowest moments in my life, I have by doing what I wanted to instead of
following a righteous path.
Saying that I'm the proof isn't intended to explain everything, nor is it an arguement.  It's simply the proof that you
asked for;  nothing more, nothing less.  I am already convinced that there is a GOD, so there's no need for me to
argue.
I've lived this life long enough to know that my beliefs come with much criticism.  I'm secure in my faith, my beliefs,
and the blessings that it brings.

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Originally Posted by man listen

sillyputty.. what is the difference between your faith in science and another's faith in God?

I don't have faith in science.
Science only describes how things work to a certain degree of certainty. 

Thats why we discovered atomic physics. The world works differently at that level but for most purposes newtonian physics describes a lot of how we deal with the world on a daily basis. 

Our measurements will never be completely accurate, our symbols will never fully convey reality and our models are valid only to a certain degree. Its those that don't understand this that think that science is some all knowing entity. It isnt.

Science changes when new evidence is introduced. It refines it self. Even those who lie about their findings end up being caught sooner or later when the evidence doesn't add up....much like that guy who lied about vaccines causing autism. The scientific community shunned him a few months ago. As they should have. You see, science has a way of being true whether or not you "believe" in it. It relies on empirical evidence collected over time to substantiate and legitimize a claim. Granted we accept certain things as "Fact" but the extent of gravity on another planet isn't the same and our understanding of how the world works may not apply to another planet...but for us, this is good for now. 

One doesn't "believe" in science...one simply "understands" it. If you "believe" in a concept and you haven't take the time to justify it, it doesn't matter how true or false it is, you're no better than someone who blindly does what they're told. 

Take the time to justify and rationalize your biases and understanding of how things work. Ask yourself, why do I believe what I believe and is it true? Learn the history of not only yourself but others. 

More knowledge allows you to come to better understandings of the way things work. 

BTW, I wish that had a "faith" in god stopped using all of the things that science has afforded them. Lets see how long they last.

Science is only man's way to discover what GOD has already done.

 

[retro23j]

Originally Posted by Supermanblue79

I believe because HE is.

I'm still tripping over how simple and effective this is for me right now. I had an awful and surprising setback yesterday that had me all the way disappointed and confused. The scriptures I read lightened my mood a tad bit, but that statement has me completely lifted because it applies to all of my situations. Regardless of whether things are going good or bad, God still is and you can fill in the blank for what God is. It's endless. It's the only way to say it because He is the same yesterday, today and forever, so He just is. Just like He told Moses when he asked who should I say sent me? "I am that I am". Telling him that God sent me would have been useless because there were many that people believed in and the name Jesus hadn't been introduced yet.

There's no beginning or end for Him. He just is. There really is no logical way to explain why you believe(my last two sentences aren't even logical), or even accept someone else's reasoning.

 

[man listen]

sillyputty wrote:

I don't care if you don't want to be like me. Thats not the issue. The issue is you saying things and suggestion notions which have not only been disproven but have never been substantiated with ANY evidence. EVER. 
I uplift plenty of people. I just don't have to believe in a god to do so. I don't need to be told i'm going to hell to be a good person. I don't get anything out of not being a **** to another person. 

I also directed you to the video because it addresses and compiles a response to your pseudoscience endeavors in a more concise way than I can. Its not to say that I don't have my own opinions. 

dude..you're trying to pit science against God as if it isn't one in the same. science is the explanation of what is called "God" has put into existence. The "cause" of the "effect". as a primarily left brained logical thinker you should know that you can't have one without the other. science "changes" because it is incomplete and always will be like you said...it will always be millions of steps behind. new evidence isn't introduced, it always is. math doesn't "change" as you go from kindergarten to high school, you simply develop the capacity to understand calculus (or not). science has not yet developed the capacity to understand God on a logical level. before there was a scientific explanation for gravity there was gravity. gravity wasn't "introduced", it fell on top of Newton's head just like God will undeniably make his presence felt in your life once you develop the capacity. belief, faith, understanding, and execution of that which cannot be explained doesn't make you blind it makes you ahead of the time. science is not some all knowing entity, God is. God has a way of being true whether you understand it or not and you will understand God very soon. 
the "evidence" you keep referring to is secondhand knowledge. you won't believe something until someone else takes the time to make it tangible and dumb it down so that you can understand it and vicariously say "that makes sense". God cannot be explained through secondhand knowledge. God must be understood on a personal level through your own experience and findings because YOU ARE GOD. the "evidence" is your life and existence that you will never understand as long as YOU DENY GOD/YOURSELF. God is the creator, to deny him is to deny yourself. I'm not talking about religion or church or any of the bull *!%%, I'm talking about GOD-- YOU, YOURSELF on a physical, mental, spiritual level. you are stuck on the physical substance of what you call "evidence" and are blind and deaf to your very own spirit and your true mind BECAUSE YOU ARE WAITING ON SECONDHAND KNOWLEDGE. you are waiting on someone to explain you to yourself. if you were to stop thinking so much it would be impossible for you to deny God. you are trapped in this cage of "logic" thinking that it is the be all end all and that "logic" explains everything. the universe is infinite, whatever you can think of there is always MORE. there is MORE than logic, there is MORE than evidence and there is MORE than God. you are missing the forest for the trees dude... 

 

[logbi]

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Originally Posted by logbi

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Why do you believe in a god? 

coz He exists.

OK...since you've predicted what I'm going to ask you...
How do you know this god exists and can you prove it? 

ohh.....dejavu!!! lol

 

[do work son]

sillyputty, why do you care so much about another man's beliefs though?

 

[marcmac360]

I have been torn on this for like the past ten years....smh...one day I will decide.

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by do work son

sillyputty, why do you care so much about another man's beliefs though?

I don't. 
Thats the thing.

...until it starts to affect how I live and the laws that get passed in this country...then I do. 

Heres the thing, all of the religious arguments in here have not be corroborated with ANY facts. None. No proof what so ever. Nothing that is logically consistent with any other arguments they've made elsewhere. 

Its not about me trying to convince them, Its about exposing the holes in their arguments. Don't make illogical and irrational claims and expect that to fly. 

Religion doesn't get a pass when it comes to criticism.

 

[foxdawg2000]

After reading all 8 pages of this thread.. I really can't see how you can debate SillyPutty's Reasoning Logically... Those who believe in a "god" or "gods" have no hard scientific evidence and their reasoning is the same as those who believed in "god" 1000 years ago..There's been no GOD breakthroughs in thousands of years and even those accounts can't be proven (Biblical Passages / Koran writings).. It baffles me on how people can just settle for what their told.. My philosophy is that "I DONT KNOW" if there is a god or not.. but being an inquisitive mind I for sure won't settle for the explanation that modern day religions (outdated) put forth.. If that makes me an athiest in your eyes... so be it..When I choose to do some of same things that religions call "good" or "holy" I feel that my conscience is talking to me.. not a "god"... But until there is concrete evident into your god's existence how can you question the fact that I question your faith and even at times your sanity on the way you choose to live your life (killing for god, starving for god, marrying for god) as millions of believers have done throughout history..... can't you see why i think it's ridiculous and often times preposterous?

I copied this over from what i wrote in a thread a couple days ago titled "How much different would your life be if "The Powers That Be" announced that there was no religion? "

Generally the world would be a much different place if the truth was revealed and people understood that the lives of Jesus, Muhammed, etc.. and the "god" they worship were not what they've banked on.. Many people require a type of structure in order to be motivated to do what they deem as "good." In reality one's actions are 95 percent self fulfilling and are in motivation of either personal satisfaction physically (sex, food, riches, protection of self/family) or mentally (financial security, afterlife, eternal happiness, aversion of suffering/pain). For the most part I'm no different from those who use religion as a main motivator except that I refuse to accept a "bland" and "overplayed" story that has seen a thousand variations throughout human history (modern religion). When human beings as a whole settle for basic explanations it can prevent an advancement as a species.When you settle for what you're told you cease push the envelope mentally....Check Hawking's quotes and how they've changed over the years... My hopes are that those that I can reach will not settle for archaic explanations and expand their knowledge (socially and scientifically) by exploring a plethora of evolving possibilities while ruling out foolishness and mob acceptance of outdated fairy tales..

sillyputty mad props dude..

 

[hizzle]

Honestly, no one should be concerned whether or not there is a God. If I live my life as a good person for the sake of being a good person because treating people fairly and kindly is the right thing to do, I should get into heaven (if there is one) regardless of if I believed in God or not. And if there isn't a such thing, then hey, you were a good person. Why would an all knowing being hold it against me that I didn't believe in him or subscribe to the right religion? Because like the Bible says, he's a jealous God? Really? There's children who have gotten over jealousy and you're telling me this all powerful being can't?

 

[mo matik]

I've been on reddit too man. There are 3 scott atran things, with 1, 6, and 4 upvotes. There are so many things on r/atheism pointing to religion as the source for the worlds problems, evidence of their tendency for scapegoating (just as religious people do, but not nearly as much in the other subreddits). Regularly on the front page. Picking out and screenshotting the dumbest arguments they could find, just for the sake of reaffirming their beliefs.

I picked these arguments because they are intelligent guys that are capable of verbalizing their beliefs. Not just as an appeal to authority. I don't think you can universalize your argument that easily against all religions, for the core concepts of what God is and our existence and purpose in life are, in many cases, very different. There isn't a thing called religion, but rather multiple religions.

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by Supermanblue79

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Originally Posted by Supermanblue79

I've been out of school a long time.  Proper grammar is not as important these days.

I'm the proof.  All of the things that HE's done in my life are all the proof that I need.

What has "god" reasonably done for you that you didnt do yourself?

Why does "god" get all the credit when you've worked long and hard to change your life and to move forward? You do all the work and this entity gets all the credit?
What happened to rewarding yourself and thanking yourself for being successful? Where was that god when you were down and out? If this god is responsible for the good then it is responsible for the bad and lowest moments of your life. You can't ignore that consistency.

Saying "you're the proof" doesn't explain anything. Nor is that a convincing argument. You can't skate from the argument saying "well i have my proof so there" Thats unfair and illogical. You have not asserted what reasonable proof this is for your argument.

Additionally, not being able to explain things does not mean there is a "god" nor does it mean that it works in your favor. 

Your faith and beliefs like all other notions or ideas are not free from criticism or analysis. Religion is not exempt from being challenged. 

Great Questions.
When I was down and out, HE was waiting on me to get up and meet him halfway.
GOD has never been responsible for the lowest moments in my life, I have by doing what I wanted to instead of
following a righteous path.
Saying that I'm the proof isn't intended to explain everything, nor is it an arguement.  It's simply the proof that you
asked for;  nothing more, nothing less.  I am already convinced that there is a GOD, so there's no need for me to
argue.
I've lived this life long enough to know that my beliefs come with much criticism.  I'm secure in my faith, my beliefs,
and the blessings that it brings.

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Originally Posted by man listen

sillyputty.. what is the difference between your faith in science and another's faith in God?

I don't have faith in science.
Science only describes how things work to a certain degree of certainty. 

Thats why we discovered atomic physics. The world works differently at that level but for most purposes newtonian physics describes a lot of how we deal with the world on a daily basis. 

Our measurements will never be completely accurate, our symbols will never fully convey reality and our models are valid only to a certain degree. Its those that don't understand this that think that science is some all knowing entity. It isnt.

Science changes when new evidence is introduced. It refines it self. Even those who lie about their findings end up being caught sooner or later when the evidence doesn't add up....much like that guy who lied about vaccines causing autism. The scientific community shunned him a few months ago. As they should have. You see, science has a way of being true whether or not you "believe" in it. It relies on empirical evidence collected over time to substantiate and legitimize a claim. Granted we accept certain things as "Fact" but the extent of gravity on another planet isn't the same and our understanding of how the world works may not apply to another planet...but for us, this is good for now. 

One doesn't "believe" in science...one simply "understands" it. If you "believe" in a concept and you haven't take the time to justify it, it doesn't matter how true or false it is, you're no better than someone who blindly does what they're told. 

Take the time to justify and rationalize your biases and understanding of how things work. Ask yourself, why do I believe what I believe and is it true? Learn the history of not only yourself but others. 

More knowledge allows you to come to better understandings of the way things work. 

BTW, I wish that had a "faith" in god stopped using all of the things that science has afforded them. Lets see how long they last.

Science is only man's way to discover what GOD has already done.

What you've done here is evade the necessity to support your conclusions. 



Thats dishonest.




Try again.




I'm glad you've improved your life and the way you make decisions, but that doesn't mean there is a god.




What you're doing is giving credit to some other entity when in reality YOU are responsible for the improvements you've made in your life. 




You say your god wasn't responsible for the lowest points in your life? Then its not god. Heres why.




If god is omnipotent then he can do anything.




if god is omniscient then he can know everything.




If your god isn't responsible for the bad things you've done or making bad situations or creating evil then your god isn't able to do anything. Therefore its not omnipotent.




If your god didn't know how sincere you were when you were at your lowest or doesn't know your thoughts before your pray then its not omniscient.




Therefore its not your god. 




You may assert then i never said god could do or know everything...well why do you praise it so much if its less than universal and has limits? 




Reconcile this notion. 







OK...another lofty claim. Where was god when the average life expectancy was 40 years for men? Where was god when women died in child birth? Where was god when children died of cholera and other diarrhea like diseases? Where was god before we made levees to protect people from flood waters? Where was god when women are raped? Does god pick sides in a football game? 





Its one thing to take advantage of science and the improved knowledge we as a society have these days, but its another to lie to yourself and say that god is responsible for all of this as "god" has idly sit around and watch people suffere while others have dedicated their lives through everything from engineers to doctors to improve the status of the experience of life. 




Don't undermine the efforts of those whose work you take advantage of. I find that highly disrespectful, if not thing else. If you want someone to pray to, pray to that unpublished researcher slaving in a lab to develop more HPV vaccine. 

 

[emoney246]

Originally Posted by Supermanblue79

Science is only man's way to discover what GOD has already done.

PREACH!!!!

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by Retro23J

Originally Posted by Supermanblue79

I believe because HE is.

I'm still tripping over how simple and effective this is for me right now. I had an awful and surprising setback yesterday that had me all the way disappointed and confused. The scriptures I read lightened my mood a tad bit, but that statement has me completely lifted because it applies to all of my situations. Regardless of whether things are going good or bad, God still is and you can fill in the blank for what God is. It's endless. It's the only way to say it because He is the same yesterday, today and forever, so He just is. Just like He told Moses when he asked who should I say sent me? "I am that I am". Telling him that God sent me would have been useless because there were many that people believed in and the name Jesus hadn't been introduced yet.

There's no beginning or end for Him. He just is. There really is no logical way to explain why you believe(my last two sentences aren't even logical), or even accept someone else's reasoning.

So the bible is true then, huh? 
A book written over 1600 years by many authors?

Who has entire chapters left out. 

Tell me what you know about the Apocrypha. i.e. the books NOT in your NIV/KJV bible. 

 

[spacerace]

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Originally Posted by spacerace

if you believe in a god, you must agree that there is no free will 

Exactly. 
Watch the mental gymnastics they use as they attempt to evade this. 

 

[gambit215]

Originally Posted by man listen

sillyputty wrote:

I don't care if you don't want to be like me. Thats not the issue. The issue is you saying things and suggestion notions which have not only been disproven but have never been substantiated with ANY evidence. EVER. 
I uplift plenty of people. I just don't have to believe in a god to do so. I don't need to be told i'm going to hell to be a good person. I don't get anything out of not being a **** to another person. 

I also directed you to the video because it addresses and compiles a response to your pseudoscience endeavors in a more concise way than I can. Its not to say that I don't have my own opinions. 

dude..you're trying to pit science against God as if it isn't one in the same. science is the explanation of what is called "God" has put into existence. The "cause" of the "effect". as a primarily left brained logical thinker you should know that you can't have one without the other. science "changes" because it is incomplete and always will be like you said...it will always be millions of steps behind. new evidence isn't introduced, it always is. math doesn't "change" as you go from kindergarten to high school, you simply develop the capacity to understand calculus (or not). science has not yet developed the capacity to understand God on a logical level. before there was a scientific explanation for gravity there was gravity. gravity wasn't "introduced", it fell on top of Newton's head just like God will undeniably make his presence felt in your life once you develop the capacity. belief, faith, understanding, and execution of that which cannot be explained doesn't make you blind it makes you ahead of the time. science is not some all knowing entity, God is. God has a way of being true whether you understand it or not and you will understand God very soon. 
the "evidence" you keep referring to is secondhand knowledge. you won't believe something until someone else takes the time to make it tangible and dumb it down so that you can understand it and vicariously say "that makes sense". God cannot be explained through secondhand knowledge. God must be understood on a personal level through your own experience and findings because YOU ARE GOD. the "evidence" is your life and existence that you will never understand as long as YOU DENY GOD/YOURSELF. God is the creator, to deny him is to deny yourself. I'm not talking about religion or church or any of the bull *!%%, I'm talking about GOD-- YOU, YOURSELF on a physical, mental, spiritual level. you are stuck on the physical substance of what you call "evidence" and are blind and deaf to your very own spirit and your true mind BECAUSE YOU ARE WAITING ON SECONDHAND KNOWLEDGE. you are waiting on someone to explain you to yourself. if you were to stop thinking so much it would be impossible for you to deny God. you are trapped in this cage of "logic" thinking that it is the be all end all and that "logic" explains everything. the universe is infinite, whatever you can think of there is always MORE. there is MORE than logic, there is MORE than evidence and there is MORE than God. you are missing the forest for the trees dude... 

 

[logbi]

i was waiting for sillyputty to reply to my last post. well, i guess he doesn't have any other way around his arguements. oh well....nuff said.

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by foxdawg2000

After reading all 8 pages of this thread.. I really can't see how you can debate SillyPutty's Reasoning Logically... Those who believe in a "god" or "gods" have no hard scientific evidence and their reasoning is the same as those who believed in "god" 1000 years ago..There's been no GOD breakthroughs in thousands of years and even those accounts can't be proven (Biblical Passages / Koran writings).. It baffles me on how people can just settle for what their told.. My philosophy is that "I DONT KNOW" if there is a god or not.. but being an inquisitive mind I for sure won't settle for the explanation that modern day religions (outdated) put forth.. If that makes me an athiest in your eyes... so be it..When I choose to do some of same things that religions call "good" or "holy" I feel that my conscience is talking to me.. not a "god"... But until there is concrete evident into your god's existence how can you question the fact that I question your faith and even at times your sanity on the way you choose to live your life (killing for god, starving for god, marrying for god) as millions of believers have done throughout history..... can't you see why i think it's ridiculous and often times preposterous?

I copied this over from what i wrote in a thread a couple days ago titled "How much different would your life be if "The Powers That Be" announced that there was no religion? "

Generally the world would be a much different place if the truth was revealed and people understood that the lives of Jesus, Muhammed, etc.. and the "god" they worship were not what they've banked on.. Many people require a type of structure in order to be motivated to do what they deem as "good." In reality one's actions are 95 percent self fulfilling and are in motivation of either personal satisfaction physically (sex, food, riches, protection of self/family) or mentally (financial security, afterlife, eternal happiness, aversion of suffering/pain). For the most part I'm no different from those who use religion as a main motivator except that I refuse to accept a "bland" and "overplayed" story that has seen a thousand variations throughout human history (modern religion). When human beings as a whole settle for basic explanations it can prevent an advancement as a species.When you settle for what you're told you cease push the envelope mentally....Check Hawking's quotes and how they've changed over the years... My hopes are that those that I can reach will not settle for archaic explanations and expand their knowledge (socially and scientifically) by exploring a plethora of evolving possibilities while ruling out foolishness and mob acceptance of outdated fairy tales..

sillyputty mad props dude..

Altruism is a quality exhibited in every animal. Its a social construct that has gotten more complex evolutionarily. 
i.e. you do good because it feels good and others benefit from it. 

We have more explanations now for how people CREATE gods than to prove that any of them exist. 

 

[kramer]

Originally Posted by Hizzle

Originally Posted by Kramer

I believe in God because to me it makes more sense then anything else. I don't believe the universe and the world could exist in any other way other than a deity putting it here. I also don't believe any normal humans could have possibly written the Bible with all its complexities, and how so many things we can observe match up with it. [h3]Finally, if what it says is true and the only way to Heaven is by believing in Jesus then why wouldn't I?[/h3] And if the Bible is wrong then at least I follow Christian virtues and morals and am living a fairly good life.

Don't you think an all seeing being could read your intentions that you're only believing something to reap the benefits of doing so and not because you actually believe it? When you say "I might as well believe..." you're not actually believing. You're pretending to believe.

That's not the real reason I believe as stated in my previous sentences thats a benefit of being a Christian, Heaven.

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Originally Posted by Kramer

I believe in God because to me it makes more sense then anything else. I don't believe the universe and the world could exist in any other way other than a deity putting it here. I also don't believe any normal humans could have possibly written the Bible with all its complexities, and how so many things we can observe match up with it. Finally, if what it says is true and the only way to Heaven is by believing in Jesus then why wouldn't I? And if the Bible is wrong then at least I follow Christian virtues and morals and am living a fairly good life.

Christian virtues and morals are shaped by a secular understanding of tolerance for the beliefs of others. Before the influence of and respect for minority rights, Christians used to murder, silence, and marginalize those who were not like them. Islam is currently doing the same thing. 

You choose to follow one religion but ignore all the others. If you know why you ignore all the others you know why I ignore yours. You are choosing to overlook your inconsistencies because it benefits you.

Thats just rampant narcissism. 

---

Im pretty sure Christian morals are shaped by what it says in the Bible and the teachings of Jesus, which does not include murdering. Ive never killed someone so I don't know what you're talking about. I never said I ignore other religions, I don't believe in them but I don't ignore them so I have no clue why you're attacking me on that front

 

[foreveryoung]

It relies on empirical evidence collected over time to substantiate and
legitimize a claim. Granted we accept certain things as "Fact" but the extent of
gravity on another planet isn't the same and our understanding of how the world
works may not apply to another planet...but for us, this is good for now.

Whats the logical explanation of accepting certain things as "fact" vs someone having faith?

Regardless of your view on religion (you clearly will not alter your beliefs regardless of what anybody says

) jsut based on logic alone it just seems so hard to describe so many things.

Like your example of gravity. Did gravity not exsist until it was scientifically proven and given a name?

Way back when the Earth was flat, did that mean it was a FACT that it was flat until scientifically proven otherwise?

I just cant ever think of any revolutionary figures, or visionaires, whether it was religion or science, that at one point their idea wasnt considered completely illogical and 'factless'

Am I saying your wrong, or someone else is right? Nah I'm just saying that you saying someone else is wrong is, well, illogical

.

And my dude, if you wait for everything to be proven before you accept something as true, I see absolutely no possible way you can ever be great. At anything really, regardless of field

man listen

Just read your response. Hit it on the head