Christianity and Conservatism

[wsdesigner14]

The Bible says a lot of things... you know that. I'm not Christian either (or gay), but Jesus' teachings in the purest sense is that God loves thosethat treat others with kindness and respect. Gay people aren't hurting anyone, they are a great part of society and an example of our freedom to expressourselves. I guess it depends if you think homosexuality is a choice... I personally believe that it is not something you can turn on or off, so I believe thatJesus would accept you as gay. This is 2010, not 10 A.D.... should we go with the Bible's remarks about animal sacrifice and foreskin removal as well?

I think you're missing the point. To simply "pick and choose" parts of the bible to fit today's lifestyle (2010) only further shows theoutdated nature of Christianity itself. If you choose to believe that gays are accepted within Christianity just because society finally accepts them you aremerely shaping Christianity to work for you. Upon doing so, you are no longer a Christian, simple as that.

The point is that religion, while disguised behind its all accepting nature cannot divorce itself from its past filled with discrimination, hatred, andviolence. Just because certain parts of Christianity (and other religions as well) are outdated today, does not allow the religious to choose those maximswhich correspond to their lifestyles while still labeling themselves Christian.

 

[sonunox34]

Originally Posted by Cz7

Originally Posted by sonunox34

The Bible says a lot of things... you know that. I'm not Christian either (or gay), but Jesus' teachings in the purest sense is that God loves those that treat others with kindness and respect. Gay people aren't hurting anyone, they are a great part of society and an example of our freedom to express ourselves. I guess it depends if you think homosexuality is a choice... I personally believe that it is not something you can turn on or off, so I believe that Jesus would accept you as gay. This is 2010, not 10 A.D.... should we go with the Bible's remarks about animal sacrifice and foreskin removal as well?

So sure you can be gay and be a christian, but you're essentially doing it all for nothing because you can't get into heaven anyway.

Surely you get my point?

If God is truly merciful, and a gay man or woman is standing at his gates with a clean history... a person that led a fulfilling life that helpedmany people... and they were in love with someone of their own sex... they wouldn't get in?

I do get your point, but again I stress that in our modern times we need to look past the minute details of a 2,000-year-old book. The Bible is good for ideasand generalities, but there's no Bible Part 2 sequel or Bible 2K10. I think we need an updated version.

 

[loxley4life]

Originally Posted by stateofsingularity

Originally Posted by loxley4life

While working on my PhD in political science, much of what I have found and what the literature and history suggests is that Christiantiy and Conservatism have been interelated in American Society since the first settlers arrived from England. They labled the type of political thought and activity as Puritansim/European Conservatism. Due to the heiarchical structure of the social and politcal systems in Europe and the types of roles that the citizens in society played, everyone had a role and it was understood from birth. So if your dad was a locksmith then you were automatically born into that class and so forth. Kings gave birth to Princes who then went on to become Kings and so politics were sturctured like that with those at the top calling the shots. Little or no government intervention was present and people accepted it. Puritans, which were kinda viewed as radicals due to their strong religious beliefs, moved over to the new country to further express thier Christain beliefs and so they used politics to keep everyone in line and those who disagreed were sanctioned. They kinda felt like those who didnt spend every minute of their day worshiping God was in fact corrupt and alienated (driven by the devil). They looked down on the use of too much government intervention into the everyday functioning of society and were highly judgemental of those who they felt were not 100 percent devoted to worshiping God. This is where the foundation of Conservatism and Christiantiy lies within our country's history. It has just evolved into what we know it as today. Even back then, those who worhsiped God the most were the most judgemental. Take a look at the Salem Witch Trials and it explains it alot.

O'RLY?

Rule by divine right
Catholic theocracy
Harldy any legislative representation
Little, if any concept, of private property
Scarcely any land tenure rights
no economic rights
capricious taxation,
indentured servitude
manorialism
fuedalism
Hardly and habeus corpus laws

Specifically when and where are you talking about?

Feudalism is a decentralized sociopolitical structure in which a weak monarchy attempts to control the lands of the realm through reciprocal agreements with regional leaders.[sup][1][/sup] In its most classic sense, feudalism refers to the Medieval European political system composed of a set of reciprocal legal and military obligations amongthe warrior nobility, revolving around the three key concepts of lords, vassals, and fiefs. Althoughderived from the Latin word feodum (fief), then in use, the termfeudalism and the system it describes were not conceived of as a formal political system by the people living in the Medieval Period.

I guess i dont know what you are talking about. Little or no government was present like I during Medieval times. You just agreed with me with all of thethings you just labled. All if any government activity came second to the social structures that were in place.

 

[3kl3kt0s]

Anything is a weapon in the hands of a fool.

Conservatives have used Christianity in order to get more votes and, consequently, more power in the government.

It's funny because Christians (and the Jesus of the Bible) were the first liberals, fighting for civil rights, equality and spending on welfare/charities.Now it is seen as "good Christianity" in America to be a Republican and to throw the Bible at people.

I'm a Christian (whatever that means), if it matters.

 

[cz7]

Originally Posted by sonunox34

Originally Posted by Cz7

Originally Posted by sonunox34

The Bible says a lot of things... you know that. I'm not Christian either (or gay), but Jesus' teachings in the purest sense is that God loves those that treat others with kindness and respect. Gay people aren't hurting anyone, they are a great part of society and an example of our freedom to express ourselves. I guess it depends if you think homosexuality is a choice... I personally believe that it is not something you can turn on or off, so I believe that Jesus would accept you as gay. This is 2010, not 10 A.D.... should we go with the Bible's remarks about animal sacrifice and foreskin removal as well?

So sure you can be gay and be a christian, but you're essentially doing it all for nothing because you can't get into heaven anyway.

Surely you get my point?

If God is truly merciful, and a gay man or woman is standing at his gates with a clean history... a person that led a fulfilling life that helped many people... and they were in love with someone of their own sex... they wouldn't get in?

I do get your point, but again I stress that in our modern times we need to look past the minute details of a 2,000-year-old book. The Bible is good for ideas and generalities, but there's no Bible Part 2 sequel or Bible 2K10. I think we need an updated version.

All Im saying, and I all I can go on is as its presented in the bible. According the bible, no that person wouldn't get in if indeed christiantheology were true. You really dont have to take my word on it, its there in the bible. I agree we need look past the bible, but don't need to update itwe need throw it out completely, we don't need it at all. Modern thinking and morality is enough. But as long as christians uphold the current bible asinerrant, infallible,timeless word of God and the basis of the religion which cannot be subtracted or added to, then it simply stands that you cannot be apracticing homosexual and concurrently by a practicing christian who is following the religion correctly.

 

[3kl3kt0s]

Originally Posted by Cz7

Originally Posted by sonunox34

Originally Posted by Cz7

Originally Posted by sonunox34

The Bible says a lot of things... you know that. I'm not Christian either (or gay), but Jesus' teachings in the purest sense is that God loves those that treat others with kindness and respect. Gay people aren't hurting anyone, they are a great part of society and an example of our freedom to express ourselves. I guess it depends if you think homosexuality is a choice... I personally believe that it is not something you can turn on or off, so I believe that Jesus would accept you as gay. This is 2010, not 10 A.D.... should we go with the Bible's remarks about animal sacrifice and foreskin removal as well?

So sure you can be gay and be a christian, but you're essentially doing it all for nothing because you can't get into heaven anyway.

Surely you get my point?

If God is truly merciful, and a gay man or woman is standing at his gates with a clean history... a person that led a fulfilling life that helped many people... and they were in love with someone of their own sex... they wouldn't get in?

I do get your point, but again I stress that in our modern times we need to look past the minute details of a 2,000-year-old book. The Bible is good for ideas and generalities, but there's no Bible Part 2 sequel or Bible 2K10. I think we need an updated version.

All Im saying, and I all I can go on is as its presented in the bible. According the bible, no that person wouldn't get in if indeed christian theology were true. You really dont have to take my word on it, its there in the bible. I agree we need look past the bible, but don't need to update it we need throw it out completely, we don't need it at all. Modern thinking and morality is enough. But as long as christians uphold the current bible as inerrant, infallible,timeless word of God and the basis of the religion which cannot be subtracted or added to, then it simply stands that you cannot be a practicing homosexual and concurrently by a practicing christian who is following the religion correctly.




I'm not sure if that's true, man. According to the Bible, all of us (humanity) are sinners, no one is perfect, so we all deserve God's wrath.That's where Jesus comes in. Because Jesus suffered and died on the cross as the perfect sacrifice, those who put their faith in Jesus are forgiven."He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." - 2 Corinthians 5:21 So yes, I thinkhomosexuals can go to heaven. Just like I think dudes who touch themselves while looking at naked women on the internet can still go to heaven. Jesus hung outwith the worst types of people out there, prostitutes, frauds, theives, etc. I believe that the essence of following Jesus is not about what we do, butit's about Jesus's love for us. But hey, I could be wrong.

 

[cz7]

Originally Posted by 3kl3kt0s

Originally Posted by Cz7

I'm not sure if that's true, man. According to the Bible, all of us (humanity) are sinners, no one is perfect, so we all deserve God's wrath. That's where Jesus comes in. Because Jesus suffered and died on the cross as the perfect sacrifice, those who put their faith in Jesus are forgiven. "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." - 2 Corinthians 5:21 So yes, I think homosexuals can go to heaven. Just like I think dudes who touch themselves while looking at naked women on the internet can still go to heaven. Jesus hung out with the worst types of people out there, prostitutes, frauds, theives, etc. I believe that the essence of following Jesus is not about what we do, but it's about Jesus's love for us. But hey, I could be wrong.

Sorry to be blunt, But yes you are very wrong and I think you do a great disservice your religion and those pious individuals who adhere to it when you sayperverts ( not saying that all those who look at porn are perverts, some are) can enjoy the same paradise they enjoy being morally sound individuals.

this is from the same chapter you quoted

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nordrunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

 

[stateofsingularity]

Originally Posted by loxley4life

Originally Posted by stateofsingularity

Originally Posted by loxley4life

While working on my PhD in political science, much of what I have found and what the literature and history suggests is that Christiantiy and Conservatism have been interelated in American Society since the first settlers arrived from England. They labled the type of political thought and activity as Puritansim/European Conservatism. Due to the heiarchical structure of the social and politcal systems in Europe and the types of roles that the citizens in society played, everyone had a role and it was understood from birth. So if your dad was a locksmith then you were automatically born into that class and so forth. Kings gave birth to Princes who then went on to become Kings and so politics were sturctured like that with those at the top calling the shots. Little or no government intervention was present and people accepted it. Puritans, which were kinda viewed as radicals due to their strong religious beliefs, moved over to the new country to further express thier Christain beliefs and so they used politics to keep everyone in line and those who disagreed were sanctioned. They kinda felt like those who didnt spend every minute of their day worshiping God was in fact corrupt and alienated (driven by the devil). They looked down on the use of too much government intervention into the everyday functioning of society and were highly judgemental of those who they felt were not 100 percent devoted to worshiping God. This is where the foundation of Conservatism and Christiantiy lies within our country's history. It has just evolved into what we know it as today. Even back then, those who worhsiped God the most were the most judgemental. Take a look at the Salem Witch Trials and it explains it alot.

O'RLY?

Rule by divine right
Catholic theocracy
Harldy any legislative representation
Little, if any concept, of private property
Scarcely any land tenure rights
no economic rights
capricious taxation,
indentured servitude
manorialism
fuedalism
Hardly and habeus corpus laws

Specifically when and where are you talking about?

Feudalism is a decentralized sociopolitical structure in which a weak monarchy attempts to control the lands of the realm through reciprocal agreements with regional leaders.[sup][1][/sup] In its most classic sense, feudalism refers to the Medieval European political system composed of a set of reciprocal legal and military obligations among the warrior nobility, revolving around the three key concepts of lords, vassals, and fiefs. Although derived from the Latin word feodum (fief), then in use, the term feudalism and the system it describes were not conceived of as a formal political system by the people living in the Medieval Period.

I guess i dont know what you are talking about. Little or no government was present like I during Medieval times. You just agreed with me with all of the things you just labled. All if any government activity came second to the social structures that were in place.

There was plenty of government intervention in fuedalism. It may have not been centralized, but regional leaders interfered in individual's lives.

I listed the above to point out to demonstrate that gov'ts consisting of "those at the top calling the shots" intervened heavily on theindividual rights of the plebes.

 

[loxley4life]

Originally Posted by loxley4life

Originally Posted by stateofsingularity

Originally Posted by loxley4life

While working on my PhD in political science, much of what I have found and what the literature and history suggests is that Christiantiy and Conservatism have been interelated in American Society since the first settlers arrived from England. They labled the type of political thought and activity as Puritansim/European Conservatism. Due to the heiarchical structure of the social and politcal systems in Europe and the types of roles that the citizens in society played, everyone had a role and it was understood from birth. So if your dad was a locksmith then you were automatically born into that class and so forth. Kings gave birth to Princes who then went on to become Kings and so politics were sturctured like that with those at the top calling the shots. Little or no government intervention was present and people accepted it. Puritans, which were kinda viewed as radicals due to their strong religious beliefs, moved over to the new country to further express thier Christain beliefs and so they used politics to keep everyone in line and those who disagreed were sanctioned. They kinda felt like those who didnt spend every minute of their day worshiping God was in fact corrupt and alienated (driven by the devil). They looked down on the use of too much government intervention into the everyday functioning of society and were highly judgemental of those who they felt were not 100 percent devoted to worshiping God. This is where the foundation of Conservatism and Christiantiy lies within our country's history. It has just evolved into what we know it as today. Even back then, those who worhsiped God the most were the most judgemental. Take a look at the Salem Witch Trials and it explains it alot.

O'RLY?

Rule by divine right
Catholic theocracy
Harldy any legislative representation
Little, if any concept, of private property
Scarcely any land tenure rights
no economic rights
capricious taxation,
indentured servitude
manorialism
fuedalism
Hardly and habeus corpus laws

Specifically when and where are you talking about?

Feudalism is a decentralized sociopolitical structure in which a weak monarchy attempts to control the lands of the realm through reciprocal agreements with regional leaders.[sup][1][/sup] In its most classic sense, feudalism refers to the Medieval European political system composed of a set of reciprocal legal and military obligations among the warrior nobility, revolving around the three key concepts of lords, vassals, and fiefs. Although derived from the Latin word feodum (fief), then in use, the term feudalism and the system it describes were not conceived of as a formal political system by the people living in the Medieval Period.

I guess i dont know what you are talking about. Little or no government was present like I during Medieval times. You just agreed with me with all of the things you just labled. All if any government activity came second to the social structures that were in place.

And might I add, that the catholic theocracy and rule by divine right were moral and social systems that were only viewed as government systems by defualt. Allof those other things that you listed such as no legislative representation, no economic rights, no habeus corpus laws would in fact show a lack of governmentin a traditional sense. Like stated earlier, the reason being was because kings called the shots and those who were on the lower end of thehierarchy followed suit due to the SOCIAL system that was in place at the time. There was little or no government intervention because thosewho made the rules were the ones who benefited the most and so they had no incentive to change the rules. There was no government as we know today and so whenthe Puritans came to America, their government was only put into place to enforce moral values and beliefs. Therefore, I am not sure what your argument is.Christianity and Conservatism have gone hand in hand since the beginning of America's time.

 

[loxley4life]

But you are correct if you view those at the top as the head of the social system, or system of government which was derived from their social and moralbeliefs at the time. I guess what I am saying is that the system of government and government intervention as we see it today was way less structured andchallenged back then due to the social structure that was in place back then.

 

[3kl3kt0s]

Originally Posted by Cz7

Originally Posted by 3kl3kt0s

Originally Posted by Cz7

I'm not sure if that's true, man. According to the Bible, all of us (humanity) are sinners, no one is perfect, so we all deserve God's wrath. That's where Jesus comes in. Because Jesus suffered and died on the cross as the perfect sacrifice, those who put their faith in Jesus are forgiven. "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." - 2 Corinthians 5:21 So yes, I think homosexuals can go to heaven. Just like I think dudes who touch themselves while looking at naked women on the internet can still go to heaven. Jesus hung out with the worst types of people out there, prostitutes, frauds, theives, etc. I believe that the essence of following Jesus is not about what we do, but it's about Jesus's love for us. But hey, I could be wrong.

Sorry to be blunt, But yes you are very wrong and I think you do a great disservice your religion and those pious individuals who adhere to it when you say perverts ( not saying that all those who look at porn are perverts, some are) can enjoy the same paradise they enjoy being morally sound individuals.

this is from the same chapter you quoted

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

The verse you pointed out is about those who do not believe in the person and work of Jesus. Please read it in context. Christianity is not about being morallyupright, but it is about Jesus. As you may know, the people who Jesus rebuked the most were those who were the most morally upright and religious. On a relatednote, these hyper-religious and moralistic individuals ended up killing Jesus. Jesus made it a point to show that it is not about religion, a set of beliefs,or about morals, but it's about God. It's about love. I'm sorry, it sounds like you've been misinformed about what the true Christian faith isabout.

 

[cz7]

Originally Posted by 3kl3kt0s

Originally Posted by Cz7

Originally Posted by 3kl3kt0s

Originally Posted by Cz7

I'm not sure if that's true, man. According to the Bible, all of us (humanity) are sinners, no one is perfect, so we all deserve God's wrath. That's where Jesus comes in. Because Jesus suffered and died on the cross as the perfect sacrifice, those who put their faith in Jesus are forgiven. "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." - 2 Corinthians 5:21 So yes, I think homosexuals can go to heaven. Just like I think dudes who touch themselves while looking at naked women on the internet can still go to heaven. Jesus hung out with the worst types of people out there, prostitutes, frauds, theives, etc. I believe that the essence of following Jesus is not about what we do, but it's about Jesus's love for us. But hey, I could be wrong.

Sorry to be blunt, But yes you are very wrong and I think you do a great disservice your religion and those pious individuals who adhere to it when you say perverts ( not saying that all those who look at porn are perverts, some are) can enjoy the same paradise they enjoy being morally sound individuals.

this is from the same chapter you quoted

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

The verse you pointed out is about those who do not believe in the person and work of Jesus. Please read it in context. Christianity is not about being morally upright, but it is about Jesus. As you may know, the people who Jesus rebuked the most were those who were the most morally upright and religious. On a related note, these hyper-religious and moralistic individuals ended up killing Jesus. Jesus made it a point to show that it is not about religion, a set of beliefs, or about morals, but it's about God. It's about love. I'm sorry, it sounds like you've been misinformed about what the true Christian faith is about.

So you can be a serial killer and believe in Jesus and make it to heaven. You're not making any sense. I think you are interpreting the verse very wrongand very dangerously.

 

[3kl3kt0s]

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. According to the Bible, when Jesus died on the cross, there was a thief on a cross next to him, being crucified. He askedJesus to remember him. Jesus told him that he would be in paradise with Jesus.

Yeah, you're correct in a sense. Biblical Christianity does say that the grace that forgives and saves is the same grace that transforms. At the same time,transformation comes after conversion, not before. And no, no one is perfect. There is no Christian in the world who is squeaky clean. To believe that there issuch thing as moral perfection within humans is dangerous in itself.

 

[sonunox34]

Originally Posted by Cz7

So you can be a serial killer and believe in Jesus and make it to heaven. You're not making any sense. I think you are interpreting the verse very wrong and very dangerously.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. According to the Bible, when Jesus died on the cross, there was a thief on a cross next to him, being crucified. He asked Jesus to remember him. Jesus told him that he would be in paradise with Jesus.

Right there.

And are we really comparing homosexuality to homicide?

 

[cz7]

Originally Posted by sonunox34

Originally Posted by Cz7

So you can be a serial killer and believe in Jesus and make it to heaven. You're not making any sense. I think you are interpreting the verse very wrong and very dangerously.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. According to the Bible, when Jesus died on the cross, there was a thief on a cross next to him, being crucified. He asked Jesus to remember him. Jesus told him that he would be in paradise with Jesus.

Right there.

And are we really comparing homosexuality to homicide?



So if you are PRACTICING homosexual and continue to practice homosexuality after you are converted although this is a practice the bible clearly forbids as Ihave clearly illustrated you can get into heaven, and if you are PRACTICING serial killer and continue to kill people after youve been converted although thatis a practice the bible clearly forbids it doesnt matter as long as you believe in Jesus then everything is permissible. Some religion you have there. I ampositive any christian theologian worth his weight would disagree. what you two have done is added something to religion to make it more favorable for you tofollow in light of modern thinking. Sure Jesus would accept homosexuals and murderers but he doesnt want them remain doing that, which is my arguement that youcannot be a practicing homosexual and yet concurrently be a christian be following your religion correctly.

 

[3kl3kt0s]

Dude, you need to relax.

Like I said in my previous post, you are right that God wants someone to change after they have been saved/forgiven. At the same time, no one is perfect.People will make mistakes. People will lie. People will commit adultery. People will steal. People will be arrogant. It doesn't make it right, but Jesusforgives, according to the Bible. The Bible does say that everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial. There is right and wrong according tothe Bible. And there is a great Forgiver.

 

[Master Zik]

Originally Posted by infamousod

In statistics, a spurious relationship (or, sometimes, spurious correlation or spurious regression) is a mathematical relationship in which two occurrences have no causal connection, yet it may be inferred that they do, due to a certain third, unseen factor (referred to as a "confounding factor" or "lurking variable"). The spurious relationship gives an impression of a worthy link between two groups that is invalid when objectively examined.

A.K.A. "Having your cake and eating it too."

 

[cz7]

Originally Posted by 3kl3kt0s

Dude, you need to relax.

Like I said in my previous post, you are right that God wants someone to change after they have been saved/forgiven. At the same time, no one is perfect. People will make mistakes. People will lie. People will commit adultery. People will steal. People will be arrogant. It doesn't make it right, but Jesus forgives, according to the Bible. The Bible does say that everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial. There is right and wrong according to the Bible. And there is a great Forgiver.

Relax? Who said I wasnt relaxed, we are having a discussion. Yeah I'm kind of baffled by the incoherent and inconsistent nature of your argument, but imrelaxed.

 

[3kl3kt0s]

Perhaps I'm not being clear. It's very possible that I'm being incoherent.

What baffles me is that you keep saying that Christian theologians would disagree with my viewpoints, but I would say that I'm pretty well-versed in whatChristian theologians believe, and I believe the same things. My viewpoints about what the Bible says is very consistent with what Biblical Christiantheologians hold to. Theologians would categorize my beliefs as Orthodox Christianity.

To be honest, it kind of sounds like you don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to Christianity. It sorta sounds like you are justarguing for the sake of arguing. I'm just trying to inform you about what my faith is really about. That's all.

 

[loveofthegame916]

What I would like to know is why is there a discussion about homosexuals going to heaven. If it clearly says in 1 Corinthians that they will not see thekingdom of God then what's there to argue about. God's word is law...period.

 

[cz7]

Originally Posted by 3kl3kt0s

Perhaps I'm not being clear. It's very possible that I'm being incoherent.

What baffles me is that you keep saying that Christian theologians would disagree with my viewpoints, but I would say that I'm pretty well-versed in what Christian theologians believe, and I believe the same things. My viewpoints about what the Bible says is very consistent with what Biblical Christian theologians hold to. Theologians would categorize my beliefs as Orthodox Christianity.

To be honest, it kind of sounds like you don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to Christianity. It sorta sounds like you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm just trying to inform you about what my faith is really about. That's all.

Thing is I know exactly what I'm talking about and in no way your views "Orthodox Christianity". The context of the that verse I posted saysnothing about those rules only applying to unbelievers, and even if it did I could find another verse that just flat out condemns it and from the newtestament. I don't think you understand my argument

 

[3kl3kt0s]

I'm sure you're referring to this:

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, noreffeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians6:9

There's alot more to it than just homosexuality. That's a long list. A list that all of humanity belongs to. Who has not coveted? Who has not reviled?Who has not committed adultery in their hearts?

Because Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin, we can become the righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). This means that we are not seen as "fornicators,adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, etc." when we are forgiven. God sees us as righteous once we have been forgiven. Thats the Gospel;that's the good news.

In fact the next verse says: "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord JesusChrist and in the Spirit of our God."

So yes, if a homosexual puts his/her faith in Jesus and His work, I believe that he/she can go to heaven, even if he/she still stumbles afterwards, becausehe/she is no longer seen as a homosexual, but is seen as righteous. I believe that this is what the Bible says.

 

[danikerhino]

I agree with most of your statement. I'm a moderate christian (I think we should maintain some of our good values). But I'm not too liberal either (nothaving the right to spank our own kids and discipline). But I definitely agree with you on the conservative Christians, they should be the least judgmentalpeople instead of the most prejudice, they are completely going against Christian values.

 

[3kl3kt0s]

Originally Posted by Cz7

Originally Posted by 3kl3kt0s

Perhaps I'm not being clear. It's very possible that I'm being incoherent.

What baffles me is that you keep saying that Christian theologians would disagree with my viewpoints, but I would say that I'm pretty well-versed in what Christian theologians believe, and I believe the same things. My viewpoints about what the Bible says is very consistent with what Biblical Christian theologians hold to. Theologians would categorize my beliefs as Orthodox Christianity.

To be honest, it kind of sounds like you don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to Christianity. It sorta sounds like you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm just trying to inform you about what my faith is really about. That's all.

Thing is I know exactly what I'm talking about and in no way your views "Orthodox Christianity". The context of the that verse I posted says nothing about those rules only applying to unbelievers, and even if it did I could find another verse that just flat out condemns it and from the new testament. I don't think you understand my argument

God hates the sin but loves the sinner. Yes, homosexuality is condemned in the Bible. But homosexuals can be forgiven. You talk about rules, but that's notwhat Christianity is about. Read Romans. Christianity is about grace, not the law. In fact, that's what made Jesus mad about the religious leaders of hisday. They kept on emphasizing the rules, but they didn't know anything about love, justice and mercy. Read Matthew chapter 23. And yes, this is true,Orthodox Christianity. Those angry dudes that call homosexuals offensive names do not represent true Christianity. They're doin it all wrong.

 

[cz7]

Originally Posted by 3kl3kt0s

I'm sure you're referring to this:

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9

There's alot more to it than just homosexuality. That's a long list. A list that all of humanity belongs to. Who has not coveted? Who has not reviled? Who has not committed adultery in their hearts?

Because Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin, we can become the righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). This means that we are not seen as "fornicators, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, etc." when we are forgiven. God sees us as righteous once we have been forgiven. Thats the Gospel; that's the good news.

In fact the next verse says: "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

So yes, if a homosexual puts his/her faith in Jesus and His work, I believe that he/she can go to heaven, even if he/she still stumbles afterwards, because he/she is no longer seen as a homosexual, but is seen as righteous. I believe that this is what the Bible says.

Okay, Its getting kind of late this will be my closing statement. I'm not referring to "stumbling" I never connoted "stumbling" orslipping up and continuing to live a homosexual lifestyle if you can characterize that as a slip up. I'm talking about homosexuals who confess belief andconvert and have absolutely no intentions of not being homosexual and consciously continue their homosexual lifestyle because they believe christianitydoesn't condemn such a practice. Those individuals are not following their religion correctly or choosing to ignore the verse you just posted. Much in thesame way all those other kinds of people mention in that verse continue to consciously commit those actions without any intention of stopping would also befollowing their religion incorrectly. That has been my argument all along.