How good is Kevin Durant really?

[flintgrey]

Originally Posted by Im Not You

Yet you think Lebron apparently is more worthy of being a 1st team defender over the both of them because all the writers said so right?

I don't need a sportswriter to tell me that Lebron is a 1st team defender. For every Cavs game I watched, I saw it myself.

Hey, I won't deny it....I read ESPN columns...I read SI columns....I read Sporting News columns (word to Chris)....in addition, I WATCH basketball. I keepup with basketball. I don't let media opinions dictate my opinions. Do sportswriters/beat writers know what they are talking about? Sure (unless itsStephen A Smith - lol)....

Growing up in Chicago, I loved reading Sam Smith's articles with the Chicago Tribune. You know why? He could point out the reasons why Michael Jordan wasthe best at anything...and he could also call him out on his faults. Ever heard of the "Jordan Rules"? Its a book that points out all thenarcissistic crap Jordan spewed at his HOF speech in a book about 20 years prior. Sportswriters are great at pointing out a point of view you may never haveseen. An NBC dramatic pregame spot before a Bulls playoff game may chronicle a Jordan & Bulls vs journey onto a championship, but the Sam Smith bookexplains the actual turmoil that took place in the locker room.

 

[flintgrey]

Originally Posted by JD617

Originally Posted by FLINTGREY

Originally Posted by JD617

This dude probably thinks Derek Jeter deserved those 3 Gold Gloves because the managers/coaches said so.

Looking at your avatar I won't even try and debate that one with you.

You don't have to. Go ask any baseball fan, including some Yankees fans.

Hell....I'll add more wood to that fire.....Jeter vs Mauer for MVP? I'm laughing that Jeter is even getting consideration. I'd beirate if Mauer didn't win the award. I personally think Mark Teixeira is more valuable to the Yanks this season than Jeter is.

 

[yungmatt]

 

[JD617]

Originally Posted by FLINTGREY

Originally Posted by JD617

Originally Posted by FLINTGREY

Originally Posted by JD617

This dude probably thinks Derek Jeter deserved those 3 Gold Gloves because the managers/coaches said so.

Looking at your avatar I won't even try and debate that one with you.

You don't have to. Go ask any baseball fan, including some Yankees fans.

Hell....I'll add more wood to that fire.....Jeter vs Mauer for MVP? I'm laughing that Jeter is even getting consideration. I'd be irate if Mauer didn't win the award. I personally think Mark Teixeira is more valuable to the Yanks this season than Jeter is.

Well at least we agree on something, because I've been saying that for months.

But anyway to get this back on topic...the All-Defensive Teams (like the Gold Glove awards) are usually flawed, because anyone who puts up stellar offensivenumbers only has to be average/slightly above average defensively to make it. Hence the reason Kobe is on the 1st team in the year 2009.

 

[nyk buc]

he's going to be a top 2 scorer in this league for a long time. but his impact wont' be as great as the all-around players b/c he can't create alick. he'll be a better version of melo in terms of elite scoring + rebounding at the forward position.

 

[flintgrey]

Originally Posted by JD617

FLINTGREY wrote:

Hell....I'll add more wood to that fire.....Jeter vs Mauer for MVP? I'm laughing that Jeter is even getting consideration. I'd be irate if Mauer didn't win the award. I personally think Mark Teixeira is more valuable to the Yanks this season than Jeter is.

Well at least we agree on something, because I've been saying that for months.

But anyway to get this back on topic...the All-Defensive Teams (like the Gold Glove awards) are usually flawed, because anyone who puts up stellar offensive numbers only has to be average/slightly above average defensively to make it. Hence the reason Kobe is on the 1st team in the year 2009.

And I agree. The only reason I would ever side with the sportswriters on this one is because of the offensive load that the 1st team playercarries along with being an above average defender. If a Kobe or Lebron concentrated more at defense rather than offense, we could only imagine what he woulddo.

But in reality, unlike offense, you really can't pin any true defensive stats to truly judge a player's defensive worth. For basketball, we can'talways equate how good a defender a player is based on how many PPG he allows. It doesn't factor in bad shooting nights or injury of your opponent. Andfor baseball, fielding pct is absolute BS; I agree the amount of errors should be factored in by chances, but Jeter won two of those Gold Gloves on merit overanything.

 

[im not you]

Originally Posted by nyk buc

he can't create a lick.

mmmhmm.

 

[ThaxbyChamblis]

Explain how KD is a better version of Melo scoring wise.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by nyk buc

he can't create a lick

Wow. That's a first

 

[JD617]

And I agree. The only reason I would ever side with the sportswriters on this one is because of the offensive load that the 1st team player carries along with being an above average defender. If a Kobe or Lebron concentrated more at defense rather than offense, we could only imagine what he would do.
I just can't agree with this reasoning though (the coaches' reasoning, not necessarily yours). I don't see how they can give an awardbased on how they think a player would perform under different circumstances.

But in reality, unlike offense, you really can't pin any true defensive stats to truly judge a player's defensive worth. For basketball, we can't always equate how good a defender a player is based on how many PPG he allows. It doesn't factor in bad shooting nights or injury of your opponent. And for baseball, fielding pct is absolute BS; I agree the amount of errors should be factored in by chances, but Jeter won two of those Gold Gloves on merit over anything.
There are advanced defensive stats, I just don't completely know how to use/understand them. Some people on here do (OKB

). Not that those should be the be-all and end-all either, but the numbers areout there and NBA front offices do use them.

 

[i nasmatic i]

.

 

[i nasmatic i]

Maybe it's just me, but how come everyone talks about Durant being an underwhelming rebounder at 6'9 215 (6.6 RPG last season) when LeBron issupposedly 6'9 260 and only gets 7.6 RPG?

That one rebound that significant or just plain nitpicking

.

 

[sickwitit]

Originally Posted by FLINTGREY

Originally Posted by SickWitIt

Originally Posted by Clutchshooter

Originally Posted by SickWitIt

Top 10 player already.

Now this is a reach.

Nope. This year he'll prove to everyone he deserves at least top 10...creeping into top 5 slowly.

Even bigger reach. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeasy now.....

Originally Posted by SickWitIt

Durant > Melo. Durant is already a scoring machine. The three pointer is nasty. Good FG %. Solid rebounder. Just needs to work on passing a bit more I guess.

Before his passing he needs to work on his defense, hence why his PER number stinks.

You think Kobe and Lebron are at the top of their game because they can drop 30 at the drop of a hat? Nope - there are two sides of the coin - they can shut down any opponent that guards from doing the same.

Oh yeah I forgot about his defense. Yeah he needs work on that. But other than passing and defense, Durant is a beast. And top 10? Yes imo.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by I NaSmatic I

Maybe it's just me, but how come everyone talks about Durant being an underwhelming rebounder at 6'9 215 (6.6 RPG last season) when LeBron is supposedly 6'9 260 and only gets 7.6 RPG?

That one rebound that significant or just plain nitpicking

.

The Cav have the 23rd slowest offense in the league, Oklahoma city has the 9th fastest offense in the league.
more possessions, more shots, more misses, more rebounds.

Kevin Durants rebound percentage is 9.7%, Lebrons is 12%, so that is a pretty decent margin, to put it in perspective Chris Pauls rebound percentage is a shadeunder, 8.7. Durant is an average rebounder while Lebron is the 4th best rebounding SF in the league.

There are advanced defensive stats, I just don't completely know how to use/understand them. Some people on here do (OKB

). Not that those should be the be-all and end-all either, but the numbers are out there and NBA front offices do use them.
There are only a couple advanced defensive stats, all of them flawed in some way.

Defensive Rating is an estimation of how many points a player gives up per 100 possessions, how often he forced his guyinto a bad shot, or how many turnovers he created. It's major flaw is that it is heavilly dependent on the team mates you have, guys on good defensiveteams will have good defensive ratings,m for example; Tony Parker, he is rated as the worst defender on the Spurs, but has a better defensive rating for theaverage point guard, oh also it doesn't really help fully quantify guys like Chuck Hayes, or Bruce Bowen guys who don't cause a lot of turnovers butplay great man to man D.

Defensive Win Shares It simply can be defined as how many wins a player contribute to a team with his defense, theyuse defensive rating and figure out how that number ralates twoards winning. A good way to tell if I stat works is if 70% of the answers you expect and 30% aresurprising, Expected: Scottie Pippen has the second highest single season total of any swing man, Bill Russel is the highest for any big man, unexpected, Dr Jhas the highest rating of any swing man, even higher than Scottie, leading me to believe his defense may be slightly underrated. It's flaw is that 1. itis not a rate, you have to play minutes to get a lot of win shares, if your team only wins 28 games there are only 28 win shares for you to claim.

Simple on court/off court plus minus. When Kevin Durant is on the court the Thunder give up 113 points per 100possesions, when he is off the court they give up only 105 points per 100 possesions. Flaw? It doesn;t take into account the quality of opponent your teammatesfaced. Kevin is going against starters while the bench players have more time against scrubs.

Adjusted Plus Minus. Plus minus adjusted for your teammates and the quality of opponents they face. Probabaly the mostaccurate stats to @+$*$ value,but not necessarily overall talent, Flaw? If your team is good defensively top to bottomand when your out of the game there defensive performance does not decrease that much your plus minus won't be as good, doesn't mean the playerisn't good it just speaks to the quality of team mates, Example Dwight Howards plus minus was only +2.2 probably because Gortat is such a good defender aswell it's also very noisy, fluctuates alot from year to year.

By this rating Durant is horrible the 4th worst defender in the league.

 

[im not you]

My god...I don't think people understand how truly lame statwhores are

 

[bigmike23]

how did i know he would turn this into stats

 

[e3lal]

Originally Posted by xBraveHeartX

He's not up there yet, but in a couple years he'll be up there as with LeBron.

this.

 

[mustbetheshoe58]

he'll be up there before he reaches his prime

 

[jsindaa]

Originally Posted by Im Not You

My god...I don't think people understand how truly lame statwhores are

 

[eight2one]

he is hella good.....and will continue to only get better.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by Im Not You

My god...I don't think people understand how truly lame statwhores are

Strangely they run the league, now, most of the good teams anyways have advanced statistics departments.

 

[4thand10]

Wow, LeBron made 1st team all-defense last year.

OKC will get some W's this year and all is cool

 

[thekingofva]

He still has a long way to go. Right now a top 10 talent but he needs to become a better all-around player.

 

[sickwitit]

 

[haiti5]

its okay to love the guy..but dont expect any MVPs anytime soon...or ever for that..dude is a great scorer but thats it..from what ive seen he isnt even a goodteam defender let alone one on one.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by I NaSmatic I

Maybe it's just me, but how come everyone talks about Durant being an underwhelming rebounder at 6'9 215 (6.6 RPG last season) when LeBron is supposedly 6'9 260 and only gets 7.6 RPG?

That one rebound that significant or just plain nitpicking

.

The Cav have the 23rd slowest offense in the league, Oklahoma city has the 9th fastest offense in the league.
more possessions, more shots, more misses, more rebounds.

Kevin Durants rebound percentage is 9.7%, Lebrons is 12%, so that is a pretty decent margin, to put it in perspective Chris Pauls rebound percentage is a shade under, 8.7. Durant is an average rebounder while Lebron is the 4th best rebounding SF in the league.

There are advanced defensive stats, I just don't completely know how to use/understand them. Some people on here do (OKB

). Not that those should be the be-all and end-all either, but the numbers are out there and NBA front offices do use them.

There are only a couple advanced defensive stats, all of them flawed in some way.

Defensive Rating is an estimation of how many points a player gives up per 100 possessions, how often he forced his guy into a bad shot, or how many turnovers he created. It's major flaw is that it is heavilly dependent on the team mates you have, guys on good defensive teams will have good defensive ratings,m for example; Tony Parker, he is rated as the worst defender on the Spurs, but has a better defensive rating for the average point guard, oh also it doesn't really help fully quantify guys like Chuck Hayes, or Bruce Bowen guys who don't cause a lot of turnovers but play great man to man D.

Defensive Win Shares It simply can be defined as how many wins a player contribute to a team with his defense, they use defensive rating and figure out how that number ralates twoards winning. A good way to tell if I stat works is if 70% of the answers you expect and 30% are surprising, Expected: Scottie Pippen has the second highest single season total of any swing man, Bill Russel is the highest for any big man, unexpected, Dr J has the highest rating of any swing man, even higher than Scottie, leading me to believe his defense may be slightly underrated. It's flaw is that 1. it is not a rate, you have to play minutes to get a lot of win shares, if your team only wins 28 games there are only 28 win shares for you to claim.

Simple on court/off court plus minus. When Kevin Durant is on the court the Thunder give up 113 points per 100 possesions, when he is off the court they give up only 105 points per 100 possesions. Flaw? It doesn;t take into account the quality of opponent your teammates faced. Kevin is going against starters while the bench players have more time against scrubs.

Adjusted Plus Minus. Plus minus adjusted for your teammates and the quality of opponents they face. Probabaly the most accurate stats to @+$*$ value,but not necessarily overall talent, Flaw? If your team is good defensively top to bottom and when your out of the game there defensive performance does not decrease that much your plus minus won't be as good, doesn't mean the player isn't good it just speaks to the quality of team mates, Example Dwight Howards plus minus was only +2.2 probably because Gortat is such a good defender as well it's also very noisy, fluctuates alot from year to year.

By this rating Durant is horrible the 4th worst defender in the league.