IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[sea manup]

No, you're right, man, my arguments are poorly constructed.

Dudes in here will be like LOL KOBE HAS MOST MISSED SHOTS EVAR HE SUCKS.

LOL KOBE IS TOP 3, BYE.

But MY arguments are poorly constructed?

Alrighty then, I'll let my dude GVH or w/e his name is keep this thread going,

those dudes dont even get a reply, usually i just assume its brain damage

if you're going to bring up stats you need to give it context, talk both qualitative and quantitative

making up some random criteria like elimination games and calling it "25 biggest games of his career" is just lazy

basketball doesnt work that way, just like how you cant google kobe's top 10 highest scoring or PER games and say oh those are the 10 greatest games kobe's ever played

 

[sea manup]

Doesn't he has the most miss and most makes of all time?! Pretty sure.

pretty sure kareem has the most makes

 

[krazyrodzilla]

pretty sure kareem has the most makes

Almost positive is KOBE.

 

[sea manup]

 

pretty sure kareem has the most makes

Almost positive is KOBE.

kobe has around 11k makes

kareem has around 15k makes

 

[MVP]

Almost positive is KOBE.

You'd be positively wrong.

Kareem has 15837 made FGA
Kobe has 11280 to this point

 

[krazyrodzilla]

You'd be positively wrong.

Kareem has 15837 made FGA
Kobe has 11280 to this point

No I meant game winning FGS my bad.

 

[Deleted member 37467]

You'd be positively wrong.

Kareem has 15837 made FGA
Kobe has 11280 to this point

No I meant game winning FGS my bad.

Ya, I'm pretty sure he has the most GW's.

35 or so I wanna say.

 

[sea manup]

what's the official criteria for a game winner?

 

[CP1708]

Shots that win the game......

 

[sea manup]

well obviously, but when you have a stat for it there has to be some sort of critera

if he hits a shot with 1 minute left and no team scores from that point on is it a game winner?

 

[mister friendly]

Yeah, except he averaged 28, 8, and 4 on 57/52/79 shooting in the series. His usage rate in the series was 33%, I don't know how much higher you think it should've been. San Antonio as a whole just destroyed Miami as a whole. This is why it's dumb to only use team performance to judge individual players. I don't know what it's gonna take to get people to realize it's a team sport.

I realize its a team sport. I was more so commenting on the fact that is better to have the best most capable player of making the shot make it. Why pass it off unless its to Ray Allen with an open three. I feel like big time players take a big time shot. If your team is "bad" or not playing well I don't think you should put the ball in their hands. Lebron had a great series but lots of those stats were during garbage time. To keep the thread on topic though ill leave it alone.

Much of those points were in garbage time

There's a video breaking it down but I can't post it right now at the gym

It's like Kobe is the king of over-aggressiveness and Lebron is the king of passivity (Is that a word?)

 

[darthska]

what is all this nonsense going on?

why are we bringing up espn worthy stats like playoff elimination games to prove anything?

kobe dominates a series to the point where the lakers sweep and none of those games matter because he never played an elimination game 

how will we ever know how clutch mj was in the finals, his team never played a game 7

games 1-2-3-4 of the nba finals doesnt count but for some reason game 4 vs the mavs in 2012 is considered one of the 25 biggest games of his career. this is what happens when you blindly use stats to tell your story without thinking

No, guy.

No, GM 1 of any series is NOT as big as GM 7 of any series.

When the topic is 'big moments', the opening tip of GM 1 is nowhere close to the waning seconds of a tied GM 7.

And the topic was 'big moments' when you gave this reply.

 

[mister friendly]

Heres the video








All the moments are important in the playoffs

 

[mastralf]

Heres a video for everyone to think about.

 

[mister friendly]

It doesn't matter dude, it's never going to end

There's going to be some sort of discrediting that or ignoring it

This thread should be renamed the Kobe lovers vs Kobe haters thread

 

[mastralf]

It doesn't matter dude, it's never going to end

There's going to be some sort of discrediting that or ignoring it

This thread should be renamed the Kobe lovers vs Kobe haters thread

Lol yea your right. I do have a good time hearing the arguments for or against though. This is not a good thread to be in if you take things said on the internet as personal lol.

 

[Deleted member 37467]

well obviously, but when you have a stat for it there has to be some sort of critera

if he hits a shot with 1 minute left and no team scores from that point on is it a game winner?

It's not tracked officially and I don't know how the people that do track it view GW shots because if you do a google search you'll never find 2 guys w/ the same numbers, but Kobe is always at the top of the list.

I've seen people put as little as 25 and as much as 37.

It's also very likely that someone like KAJ has more GW'ers but nobody gave a crap about all this stuff until MJ showed up,

what is all this nonsense going on?

why are we bringing up espn worthy stats like playoff elimination games to prove anything?

kobe dominates a series to the point where the lakers sweep and none of those games matter because he never played an elimination game 

how will we ever know how clutch mj was in the finals, his team never played a game 7

games 1-2-3-4 of the nba finals doesnt count but for some reason game 4 vs the mavs in 2012 is considered one of the 25 biggest games of his career. this is what happens when you blindly use stats to tell your story without thinking

No, guy.

No, GM 1 of any series is NOT as big as GM 7 of any series.

Even the topic is 'big moments', the opening tip of GM 1 I'd nowhere close to the waning seconds of a tied GM 7.

And the topic was 'big moments' when you gave this reply.

Pretty much.

Dude saw my comment about the biggest games of his career and built his argument around it,

I didn't mean they were the definitive biggest games, just 25 of them.

But yea, the topic was big moments like you said.

 

[gvhp2223]

 
 Lebron had a great series but lots of those stats were during garbage time. To keep the thread on topic though ill leave it alone.

Now this is FUNNY.

 

[gvhp2223]

 [h2]14. Los Angeles Lakers[/h2]
The league’s vaudeville freak show rolls on, with Kobe Bryant upchucking one of the very worst games you’ll ever see from a high-volume scorer Sunday against the Kings — an 8-of-30 festival of contested 22-footers, with nine Kobe turnovers tossed in as a free sideshow.

Opponents have outscored the Lakers by 13.3 points per 100 possessions with Bryant on the floor, per NBA.com. The Lakers have flipped that figure almost on its head when Kobe sits, destroying teams by about 11 points per 100 possessions. The sample size is small, and Bryant is going up against top opposing units as a starter for a terrible team; Jordan Hill and Wesley Johnson, the Lakers’ other full-time starters, also have ugly splits by this metric.

But they’re not as ugly as Kobe’s, and the Lakers’ positive scoring margin without him is massive — about equivalent to Golden State’s league-best mark. Bryant leads the league in shot attempts and usage rate. He is shooting 37 percent. No one in NBA history has faced so little accountability. It is absurd on its face. Bryant has hijacked the entire organization.

None of this really matters. The Lakers were never trying to win this season; finishing with one of the league’s five worst records gives them a good chance of keeping a protected first-round pick they’ll eventually toss Phoenix. No one along the back line plays much defense, though Ed Davis at least tries — while shooting 63 percent on the rare instances in which the orange thing accidentally winds up in his hands.

The Lakers are 7-10 since Nick Young returned from injury, and they’ve played stretches of actual NBA-level basketball. It’s all cable-TV filler until their real season begins in July.

 

[gvhp2223]

 
[h1]Ball Don't Lie[/h1]
[h1]Kobe Bryant has to stop[/h1]

By Kelly Dwyer December 22, 2014 12:19 PM Ball Don't Lie

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Mocking Kobe Bryant’s shot selection has acted as a gleeful exercise for NBA observers since the spring of 1997: Bryant’s rookie year, when the teenager was either charged with or decided to personally take several ill-advised jumpers down the stretch of Los Angeles’ Game 5 loss to the Utah Jazz in the Western Conference semis. Elden Campbell missed 12 of 13 shots in that game, and Lakers not named “Kobe” were embarrassingly incompetent at defending the pick-and-roll, but Bryant’s airballs and 4-14 shooting mark were given the most blame.

In the years since, it’s been just fine to contain multitudes regarding Bryant: Kobe does take lots of terrible, inefficient shots, but he also makes quite a few of them and remains one of the greatest players of his generation.

This year, however, stands as less charming. The Lakers were never going to make the playoffs and Bryant is to be credited for his usage alone – it takes a special NBA athlete to be able to get off 22.4 shots per game at age 36. Sunday evening’s Lakers loss to the Sacramento Kings, though, was downright embarrassing. And all because of Kobe.

With the Lakers up 13 points midway through the third quarter, Bryant decided to close out the Lakers/Kings contest in this fashion:

Each time we thought Bryant had topped himself with a terrible shot, he dug in deeper and continued to toss them up. Attempts that wouldn’t have been appropriate even in Bryant’s prime were served as his go-to moves, as this one-man flotilla completely shot the Lakers out of a game they eventually lost by seven.

Kobe finished with an 8-of-30 mark from the field, keeping his most ardent admirers happy with 25 points accrued from those 30 shots. Bryant turned the ball over nine times. His defense was Kobe Bryant-esque – two cool steals but plenty of blow-byes.

Following the contest, as you no doubt are already aware, Lakers coach Byron Scott floated the idea that a fatigued Bryant should sit a contest or two in order to rest the legs that decided to shoot 30 times. From Yahoo Sports’ Marc J. Spears:

When asked if Bryant's offensive struggles were due to fatigue or being aggressive offensively, Scott said: "That's fatigue. I think that goes hand in hand. I'm going to think about it tonight and sit down with Kobe tomorrow and we'll talk about it. We'll come up with a solution and try to figure out the next few games and what we want to do."

Bryant responded:

"I don't have much of a choice if the body is feeling the way it's feeling right now," Bryant told Yahoo Sports. "You got to be smart. You got to make sure you get enough return on your investment. With the amount of work that I do and put into my body and to get my body ready, for it to be sore as it is right now, sometimes you do have to consider sitting down.”

If you’re a mindful Lakers fan, this should be infuriating.

Kobe Bryant reminding us that one has “to be smart,” even as he’s taking some of the least-intelligent shots available.

Byron Scott refusing to stand up to his former teammate and current buddy in the hopes of remaining Bryant’s ally, citing fatigue as the reason Kobe Bryant ran up and down the court for nearly 38 minutes while tossing up 30 shots. He’d have tossed up more had he not turned the ball over nine times.

Over the last fortnight, seven games, Kobe Bryant has averaged 22.5 shots per game – right in line with his season average. He’s shot 31.6 percent from the field over that spell, the work of a madman.

The Lakers stink, though, right? Kobe has to do this in order for this team to survive, correct?

We’re 27 games into the season. It’s time to start paying attention to stuff like this:

The idea that Bryant has to carry some imaginary load is ridiculous. The Lakers have proven they can be more than a competent (numbers-wise, quite good actually) offensive club when Bryant is off the floor.

The Lakers’ numbers with Bryant sitting might be pumped up because they’re sometimes working against second-string reserves, but the Lakers are usually working with second-stringers themselves during that scenario. Yes, Kobe’s situation stinks, but that doesn’t mean he needs to be jacking up a league-leading amount of shots per game mark while shooting 37 percent from the field. And don’t start on the idea that Kobe can play point guard – he’s working with a 1.4 assist to one turnover ratio this season.

One of those second-stringers, Nick Young, managed a quite efficient 26 points on 14 shots in the loss on Sunday, without turning the ball over. When it came time to talk about resting Kobe, this is what he offered, via Sam Amick of USA Today:

"Hats off to [Bryant], still going out there every night and trying to do his best," Young began before offering his solution. "Just give me the ball, and that's what could happen. I'm always down to take over the load. Let me, let Wayne [Ellington] take a couple shots. But majority, just give me the ball."

Bryant "still goes out there at night and tries to give his best. We need Kobe out there, and he knows it. But he don't need to kill himself. That's what I'm here for."

Again, when Nick Young is acting as your voice of reason, it’s time to look in the mirror. That goes for Kobe, Scott and the entire Lakers front office and ownership group.

The basketball cognoscenti had a lot of fun goofing on Bryant’s shot selection on Twitter on Sunday evening, but at some point, though, this stops being funny. Yes, some Lakers fans can be annoying, and those fans certainly have decades of dynastic basketball to warm themselves with in light of a losing season. Sacramento Kings don’t want to hear Lakers whining when the team is just 4 1/2 years removed from its last (and second straight) NBA title, when the Kings have made it to the third round of the playoffs just once since moving to California.

Rest is not the answer, and rest is not what Kobe’s going to get. The Lakers (who signed Bryant to a two-year, $48.5 million deal to keep their fans happy) aren’t going to sit him in front of the home crowd on Tuesday against Golden State, and they’re certainly not going to sit him in a nationally televised Christmas Day contest against the Chicago Bulls and upstart off guard Jimmy Butler on Christmas Day.

Kobe Bryant is 36. He may be a psychotic competitor and he may be working for a terrible team, but as one ages one is supposed to accrue intelligence as the years pile on. Bryant is working with the sort of shot selection that would get a player half his age pulled from an AAU or high school game.

This has to be the low point. Somebody needs to put a stop to this. It starts with the guy with the ball in his hands.

 

[mastralf]

Now this is FUNNY.

Did you watch that video posted in the thread?

 

[JD617]

I can't watch the Coach Nick video right now at work, but if it's anything like his Westbrook videos...

 

That guy is a known idiot, he consistently embarrasses himself with his Westbrook slander, ask DatZNasty.

at quoting Coach Nick, an admitted Major Troll. He is Skip Bayless without ESPN. Even in wins, he incessantly posts Westbrook criticisms and again like Skip, blames Westbrook for things he has no control over like KD's technicals. Plus I never trust grown *** men with lisps anyways.

He might make a salient point or 2 at times, but if he really wanted to be taken seriously and not just famous in the "say something loud enough and people will listen, any publicitiy is good publicity, troll reporter," type of way he wouldn't say things like that they we should start Eric Maynor or half the other ridiculous things he says.

the worst NBA finals pg in history? He does, he gets it worst. Even when he has out of this world games, the media won't ever give him credit, particularly Skip and some dude named Coach Nick who made a name off being loud on Youtube cherrypicking Westbrook plays and saying, "Thith isth thwy Wuthle Wethblook will never win a cthampionthith," on his game breakdowns. Our local beat writer doesn't even like him and always tries to antagonize him in media sessions.

You can even just check Skip's twitter TL tonight or anytime the Thunder play and dudes like Coach Nick who do game analyses that make it seem like there weren't 9 other people on the court at a time and it was just "Wuthel Westhbluk is a tellubl point goud" (he is a grown *** man with a lisp) over ad nauseum using RW and hyperbole to increase their own views and stature.

 

[gvhp2223]

Did you watch that video posted in the thread?

I did, and it was nonsense.

You got the video claiming that certain parts of the NBA Finals games (2nd quarter, 3rd quarter) are "garbage time" because there's a double-digit lead.

 

[JD617]

And of course if he stopped playing hard in the 2nd or 3rd quarter... then people would be in here saying he "quit." So it's a no-win situation either way.

 

[Deleted member 37467]

I'm not even sure why losing by wide margins in the Finals was brought up anyway.

Didn't the Lakers lose by 40 in a Finals elimination game? Or was it only 39?

Maybe Mamba Cake can refresh my memory.

I'm also not sure why LeBron is being brought up in here.

I guess the Kobe brigade saw that he was much better late in games and got butt hurt.