IS KOBE BRYANT...OVERRATED?

[MVP]

What about MVPs? Those same idiot voters are making those determinations so why should we take those seriously?

 

[CP1708]

What about MVPs? Those same idiot voters are making those determinations so why should we take those seriously?

Some years we shouldn't.

 

[pmatic]

Don't the coaches just hand the ballots to the local ball boys to fill out. At least that seems to be the running joke.

 

[mister friendly]

Oh gosh they are idiots now?

I agree human voting can be flawed

Its multiple NBA coaches and GMs voting on those selections

They watch more film than me, you or some other internet nerd does

Watching the NBA and analyzing it is their job

If there was a number of other "below average" defensive players who made All-Defensive teams, I would give more credence to the voting is severely flawed train of thought

Tell ya what, how bout this?

Tony Allen, 2 All NBA Defensive teams. 2.
Bruce Bowen, 5 All NBA Defensive teams. 5.
Shane Battier, 0 All NBA Defensive teams. 0.
Raja Bell, 1 All NBA Defensive team. 1.
Shawn Marion, 0 All NBA Defensive teams. 0.

5 of the best defenders you've ever seen play defense in the NBA. 8 TOTAL selections, in ALL of their careers COMBINED. Like 40+ NBA seasons they've played. 8.

Kobe Braynt, 9.


Voters, are, idiots.

Don't be like them man.

See CP this low key irritates me

Because now I had to go look up All Defensive teams and all that bull*****

Its the Holidays I want to hang out with my family but the wife and kids are at the store so Im good





Tony Allen has been selected 3 times. Before his first selection, he wasn't consistently playing even 20 minutes a game and he was missing alot games. Its hard to made teams like that.

Bruce Bowen made 8 teams, he was like Allen in the seasons he didn't get much playing time when he entered the NBA. he was only averaging about 15 minutes per game

Battier was selected 2 times. With him it was more of a case that there were better defenders at the Forward position than him, Whose place was he going take? Tayshaun?.....BB?....Artest?

Raja made 2 teams but wasn't going consistently to make the team at guard over Kobe, Kidd, Chauncey

Shawn Marion didn't make any teams and he was a great defender but again look at the guys who at his position......Ben Wallace, KG, Duncan

I hope that helps you understand why those great defenders didn't make as many teams as who would have expected

The voters aren't idiots they just had better choices

 

[CP1708]

First Team dude. All NBA, Defensive FIRST Team.

All those players, 8.

Kobe 9.


Debate over. That alone shows you the voters (coaches/GM's) are just picking random stars.

 

[CP1708]

Since you mentioned it tho, Ron Artest, 2.

Tayshaun Prince, 0.


So now we can add to the list.

Bowen, Raja, Artest, Battier, Prince, Allen, Marion guys, entire career's, what, 60 some odd seasons as a total.

10 All NBA First Team Selections.

10.

Kobe 9.

Joe Dumars 4
Michael Cooper 5


Come on man.

 

[sea manup]

kobe has as many first teams as hakeem and dwight combined 

 

[mister friendly]

So its first team selections now? ....Come on man

Stop with the fun with selections

So I guess nobody should be irritated or complain about Kobe 2012 selection,

Because it was just 2nd team apparently those don't count now

Im not saying Kobe is the best defender ever but he has 12 All NBA selections and those are facts

Kobe selections and their non selections have nothing to do with each other

 

[MVP]

Kobe was a beast though. If you wanna say 10 and 11 were lifetime achievement awards fine. That still leaves 7, more than a lot of those other guys combined. So where is the line drawn where stupid ends and begins? You're quibbling over 2 selections which would still leave him well ahead of his contemporaries.

 

[CP1708]

The entire point they were making was Kobe has not been an elite defender in 3-4 years now. Basically 2010 on.


The last couple awards were rep awards, same as LeBron last year. It doesn't lessen the earlier ones he won when he was a great defender, it's merely shining light on the whole "he has 9" etc etc. It should really be 7, and even the 2010 one might have been a stretch.

And I was ALWAYS talking about First Team. I don't care or acknowledged 2nd/3rd team, that's like being a 5th alternate All Star type thing.

 

[sea manup]

kobe shares the record for most defensive first teams with 9 with MJ, KG and the glove

duncan has the record for most total defensive teams with 14 (he has 8 first teams)

there have been 4 times where the DPOY didnt make the first team (teams voted by coaches, DPOY voted by media)

 

[essential1]

His defense in his prime is largely underrated.

But he's been bad defensively the past few seasons (sans short bursts where he can sustain great defense).

Most of it is really effort driven... Though age/injuries/ loss of quickness contribute, but can't be the full explanation of why he was at where he was defensively to where he is now. Where I pinpoint it is, once he started having knee problems in 2010-11, which required him to go to Germany to become part cyborg, he began to severely decrease his intensity on defense. Part of the reason that he may have originally done this (again age plays a factor and loss of abilities that he had in his prime) was that he couldn't sustain a high level of play offensively AND defensively and take all those hits with his knee problem. So he chose the side of the ball that he's always been better at, offense. This led to playing centerfield on Defense, which conserved energy for offense. The negative is that it makes it easier for the guy he's guarding to get an easy bucket on a cut or an off-ball screen.

But nonetheless, 2010-11, he had a very good defensive season. But it is where his effort started to slip, and when it became a bigger problem after surgery.

He's shown he can still play Defense when he wants to. I just think he doesn't trust his body anymore to be able to do both things. No excuse for his effort on defense, but watching Kobe for so long, and when the effort started slipped on defense, that's the best explanation I think.

 

[mister friendly]

Yes Kobe wasn't the same defender in 2011 and 2012 like he was earlier in career

But to say he was a below average defender is laughable to me

Other shooting guards who were better defenders in 2011 and 2012? Maybe

But if theres a tie between players on the same defensive level, the player with more offensive skill will always win especially in eyes of NBA GMs and coaches

The fact is that, Kobe earned those selections

I think you have to be careful with discrediting awards, its a slippery slope

 

[essential1]

2010-11 Kobe:

PER 48
18.3 FGA / .464 eFG% / 3.8 FTA / 4.7 REB / 4.1 AST / 2.4 TO / .5 BLK / 20.0 PTS / 11.8 PER


2010-11 Tony Allen:

PER 48
17.2 FGA / .471 eFG% / 4.7 FTA / 5.0 REB / 4.2 AST / 2.9 TO / 1.0 BLK / 20.1 PTS / 15.5 PER



Last year Kobe deserved a 1st or 2nd Team Selection.. Allen got 2nd team.


And part of the popularity contest statements is the 2012 2nd Team defense, he did not deserve. Sure he had his moments, but he lacks effort on defense far to often for the last one to be taken seriously. An all defensive team selection should be someone who is always showing out on defense.

As for the lack of Defensive Selections of Stoppers, that's another reason to talk about popularity contests.

And in all honesty, all the stars of the past 20 years should have less because you could find somebody who played defense better at that position in that year. But I think the astonishment of a guy who plays good defense, but kills on offense weighs heavy on voting minds. That's why these guys known only for defense get nothing. Because the thought would be "Yeah he's great on defense, but he does zero on offense. Of course, he can bring it on Defense." Not saying that's right because it should be the 2 best defenders that year at each position, but that's gotta play a role

 

[mastralf]

Per 48 is the worst stat ever invented.....There is a reason that players don't play 48 minutes. To say well if Y player is better than X player because their per 48 is better is stupid. First, no player is going to play 48 minutes a game (granted that there isn't overtimes). Second, the per 48 favors bench players a lot. Player Y got 3 steals 12 minutes doesn't guarantee that if he played 48 minutes he would have 12 steals.

 

[mastralf]

Per 48 is the worst stat ever invented.....There is a reason that players don't play 48 minutes. To say well if Y player is better than X player because their per 48 is better is stupid. First, no player is going to play 48 minutes a game (granted that there isn't overtimes). Second, the per 48 favors bench players a lot. Player Y got 3 steals 12 minutes doesn't guarantee that if he played 48 minutes he would have 12 steals.

 

[sea manup]

Per 48 is the worst stat ever invented.....There is a reason that players don't play 48 minutes. To say well if Y player is better than X player because their per 48 is better is stupid. First, no player is going to play 48 minutes a game (granted that there isn't overtimes). Second, the per 48 favors bench players a lot. Player Y got 3 steals 12 minutes doesn't guarantee that if he played 48 minutes he would have 12 steals.

what are your thoughts on per 36 minute stats?

 

[mister friendly]

Alot metrics are questionable, you have take them a grain of salt

 

[essential1]

Per 48 is the worst stat ever invented.....There is a reason that players don't play 48 minutes. To say well if Y player is better than X player because their per 48 is better is stupid. First, no player is going to play 48 minutes a game (granted that there isn't overtimes). Second, the per 48 favors bench players a lot. Player Y got 3 steals 12 minutes doesn't guarantee that if he played 48 minutes he would have 12 steals.

It's not the worst stat ever invented.

It tries to make one variable constant. It's called statistical analysis, and trying to measure a wide array of stats, while keeping something equal.

Why would you try to keep minutes equal? Because different minutes will often result in different numbers every where. It also does not favor bench players because if you are a **** bench player in 15 minutes, your numbers will still be **** in 48 minutes. The margin at which a guy like Kobe would compare to a **** player would remain relatively constant, and would show. Especially in a category like PER. Actually the PER is much more efficient at a PER 36 & 48 than it is at per game. It is saying well, if you can do this in X minutes, how will you do it in 48 minutes. It would increase Kobe's minutes as well. And if you got 3 steals per 12 minutes a game, you likely would not be playing 12 minutes per game because you are some kind of basketball savant on defense. But that's not to say you do not consider other factors to ensure bias as well. You wouldn't compare the PER 48 of a guy who played 82 games versus one who played 10. Just as you wouldn't compare a garbage time player versus a star.

Also PER 48 is not saying hey... Let's see how he would play if he played 48 minutes on Thursday. It's saying, how would he fare every 48 minutes of play. Which can be multiple games. Because you are taking Total Number of Steals Divided by Total Minutes Played... Then multiplying by 48.

Even Per Game isn't 100% flawless. They invent these stats, to get multiple ways to look at thing because every stat has statistical bias, and the more ways to look at things, the better you can accurately look at it.

Also the PER 48 is measuring a full season, not a single game. In which your stats would regress back to the mean (average). In the same way you would not measure Kobe's PPG based only on the night he had 81 points.

 

[trophy husband]

Kobe can be a good scout or gm. He seems good at analyzing players. He won't be a good head coach though. He doesn't know how plays can have impact on game. But as a basketball player, he's as good as d league players right now. lol

 

[mastralf]

It's not the worst stat ever invented.

It tries to make one variable constant. It's called statistical analysis, and trying to measure a wide array of stats, while keeping something equal.

Why would you try to keep minutes equal? Because different minutes will often result in different numbers every where. It also does not favor bench players because if you are a **** bench player in 15 minutes, your numbers will still be **** in 48 minutes. The margin at which a guy like Kobe would compare to a **** player would remain relatively constant, and would show. Especially in a category like PER. Actually the PER is much more efficient at a PER 36 & 48 than it is at per game. It is saying well, if you can do this in X minutes, how will you do it in 48 minutes. It would increase Kobe's minutes as well. And if you got 3 steals per 12 minutes a game, you likely would not be playing 12 minutes per game because you are some kind of basketball savant on defense. But that's not to say you do not consider other factors to ensure bias as well. You wouldn't compare the PER 48 of a guy who played 82 games versus one who played 10. Just as you wouldn't compare a garbage time player versus a star.

Also PER 48 is not saying hey... Let's see how he would play if he played 48 minutes on Thursday. It's saying, how would he fare every 48 minutes of play. Which can be multiple games. Because you are taking Total Number of Steals Divided by Total Minutes Played... Then multiplying by 48.

Even Per Game isn't 100% flawless. They invent these stats, to get multiple ways to look at thing because every stat has statistical bias, and the more ways to look at things, the better you can accurately look at it.

Also the PER 48 is measuring a full season, not a single game. In which your stats would regress back to the mean (average). In the same way you would not measure Kobe's PPG based only on the night he had 81 points.

you do realize that there are 48 minutes per game........ and yes it is a terrible stat. Why make a number constant that both players wont play. Also, if a player doesn't play as much as another it because they didn't earn the rights to play that much.

Per 48 basically gives you your season averages based on if you played 48 minutes a night.

The 3 steals in a quarter was just an example. Whoever does that is straight ballin lol.

I don't know I just think trying to prove whos better by creating a what if stat is pointless.

 

[goldenchild9]

 

[noblekane]

a 3 year grave dig huh?

and not only that you posted it like that guy has any merit. that dumbass said the dream team couldnt shoot

 

[tay1]

And to find it with this trash *** searching on the new site? Now that's how you know you're a true hater. Salute to my guy up there.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

#facts