Question For Christians

[jordan novice]

I'm enjoying this discussion. In my eyes, Anton is leading 60% to 40%, not that it matters to any of you 

 

[tkthafm]

In this case (why men don't have to wear the veil) the difference is how the opposite sex is viewed in public. Obviously there are exceptions, but there is no comparison to the stares, comments, thoughts etc caused by a woman dressed immodestly compared to a man doing the same. It's just the nature of the two sexes.

As for rape being condoned... simply not true. What is true is that sex (after marrying and thus giving them all the rights of marriage) with the women of a captured town was allowed, but this doesn't mean RAPE was allowed. In the Qur'an rape is clearly forbidden. Forced marriage is clearly forbidden.

http://www.answering-chri...ape_of_female_slaves.htm

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

In this case (why men don't have to wear the veil) the difference is how the opposite sex is viewed in public. Obviously there are exceptions, but there is no comparison to the stares, comments, thoughts etc caused by a woman dressed immodestly compared to a man doing the same. It's just the nature of the two sexes.

As for rape being condoned... simply not true. What is true is that sex (after marrying and thus giving them all the rights of marriage) with the women of a captured town was allowed, but this doesn't mean RAPE was allowed. In the Qur'an rape is clearly forbidden. Forced marriage is clearly forbidden.

http://www.answering-chri...ape_of_female_slaves.htm

So because some women get cat called, women are FORCED to cover their faces? Having your hair and face exposed is considered dressing immodestly? Women are essentially getting punished because men are "a-holes" and can't keep their heads out of the gutter? This is ok and fair to you?


In the Quran rape is forbidden but in many verses in the Quran Muhammad clearly lets it slide, same with slavery-

What are your thoughts on slavery  AND sexual slavery in the Quran? Lemme guess, they are indentured servants?

 

[tkthafm]

First of all, the face doesn't have to be covered.

How are the women punished ? Why not say protected ? It's all in how you view it. If you feel this is a punishment in not allowing women to go out and get attention/cause sexual thoughts towards them to come about from hundreds of men/tempt them (and themselves) into sin over the course of a day, I will agree with you that it is a punishment. Remember, these are MUSLIM women we are talking about... they don't WANT all of this in the first place (unlike other women who literally compete for attention). What about the other side of the coin ? Why should a Muslim woman have to go through this in the first place ? While it won't eliminate it, modest dress certainly cuts down on all of this and is best for Muslim society as a whole. If Muslim men walking around in public with their hair showing (gasp) had the same effect... be sure it would have been mandatory for men to cover their hair as well (keep in mind they already have their own dress code - covering from bellybutton to knee - and a large % of Muslim men do wear hair coverings ANYWAY - )

My thoughts on slavery ? I am against it and would personally never own a slave given the chance. Sexual slavery in the Qur'an ? Where ? This doesn't exist. Sex is only permissible with your partner in marriage. You cannot force marriage. It's really that simple. 

 

[sillyputty]

at what a simple google search reveals.

this dude hasn't even tried to prove or validate his opinions on ANYTHING.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

First of all, the face doesn't have to be covered.

How are the women punished ? Why not say protected ? It's all in how you view it. If you feel this is a punishment in not allowing women to go out and get attention/cause sexual thoughts towards them to come about from hundreds of men/tempt them (and themselves) into sin over the course of a day, I will agree with you that it is a punishment. Remember, these are MUSLIM women we are talking about... they don't WANT all of this in the first place (unlike other women who literally compete for attention). What about the other side of the coin ? Why should a Muslim woman have to go through this in the first place ? While it won't eliminate it, modest dress certainly cuts down on all of this and is best for Muslim society as a whole. If Muslim men walking around in public with their hair showing (gasp) had the same effect... be sure it would have been mandatory for men to cover their hair as well (keep in mind they already have their own dress code - covering from bellybutton to knee - and a large % of Muslim men do wear hair coverings ANYWAY - )

My thoughts on slavery ? I am against it and would personally never own a slave given the chance. Sexual slavery in the Qur'an ? Where ? This doesn't exist.

[table][tr][td]
Slavery and Sex Slavery
[/td][/tr][tr][td] [/td][/tr][tr][td] [/td][/tr][tr][td]
Question:
Does Islam condone slavery?  Does Islamic teaching allow Muslim men to keep women as sex slaves?
[/td][/tr][tr][td]
Summary Answer:
Islam neither ignores nor condemns slavery.  In fact, a large part of the Sharia is dedicated to the practice.

Muslims are encouraged to live in the way of Muhammad, who was a slave owner and trader.  He captured slaves in battle.  He had sex with his slaves.  And he instructed his men to do the same.  The Qur'an actually devotes more verses to making sure that Muslim men know they can keep women as sex slaves than it does to telling them to pray five times a day.
[/td][/tr][tr][td]
The Qur'an:
Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"  This is one of several personal-sounding verses "from Allah" narrated by Muhammad - in this case allowing himself a virtually unlimited supply of sex partners.  Others are restrained to four wives, but may also have sex with any number of slaves, as the following verse make clear:

Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..."   This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves.  See alsoQur'an (70:29-30).

Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess."  Even sex with married slaves is permissible.

Qur'an (8:69) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good"  A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part.  The Muslim slave master may enjoy his "catch" because (according to verse71) "Allah gave you mastery over them."

Qur'an (24:32) - "And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..."  Breeding slaves based on fitness.

Qur'an (2:17 - "O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female."  The message of this verse, which prescribes the rules of retaliation for murder, is that all humans are not created equal.  The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman's worth is also distinguished from that of a man's).

Qur'an (16:75) - "Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means praise be to Allah."  Yet another confirmation that the slave is is not equal to the master.  In this case it is plain that the slave owes his status to Allah's will.  (According to 16:71, the owner should be careful about insulting Allah by bestowing Allah's gifts on slaves - those whom the god of Islam has not favored).

[/td][/tr][tr][td]

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (80:753) - "The Prophet said, 'The freed slave belongs to the people who have freed him.'" 

Bukhari (52:255) - The slave who accepts Islam and continues serving his Muslim master will receive a double reward in heaven.

Bukhari (41.59 - Slaves are property.  They cannot be freed if an owner has outstanding debt, but can be used to pay off the debt.

Bukhari (62:137) - An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Muhammad's men after their husbands and fathers were killed.  The woman were raped with Muhammad's approval.

Bukhari (34:432) - Another account of females taken captive and raped with Muhammad's approval.  In this case it is evident that the Muslims intend on selling the women after raping them because they are concerned about devaluing their price by impregnating them.  Muhammad is asked about coitus interruptus.

Bukhari (47.765) - A woman is rebuked by Muhammad for freeing a slave girl.  The prophet tells her that she would have gotten a greater heavenly reward by giving her to a relative (as a slave).

Bukhari (34:351) - Muhammad sells a slave for money.  He was thus a slave trader.

Bukhari (72:734) - Some contemporary Muslims in the West, where slavery is believed to be a horrible crime, are reluctant to believe that Muhammad owned slaves.  This is just one of many places in the Hadith where a reference is made to a human being owned by Muhammad.  In this case, the slave is of African descent.

Muslim 3901 - Muhammad trades away two black slaves for one Muslim slave.

Muslim 4112 - A man freed six slaves on the event of his death, but Muhammad reversed the emancipation and kept four in slavery to himself.  He cast lots to determine which two to free.

Bukhari (47:743) - Muhammad's own pulpit - from which he preached Islam - was built with slave labor on his command.

Bukhari (59:637) - "The Prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, 'Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?' When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, 'O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?' I said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus.'"  Muhammad approved of his men having sex with slaves, as this episode involving his son-in-law, Ali, clearly proves.  This hadith refutes the modern apologists who pretend that slaves were really "wives," since Muhammad had forbidden Ali from marrying another woman as long as Fatima (his favorite daughter) was living.

Abu Dawud (2150) - "The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Qur'an 4:24) 'And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.'" This is the background for verse 4:24 of the Qur'an.  Not only does Allah grant permission for women to be captured and raped, but allows it to even be done in front of their husbands.  (See also Muslim3432)

Abu Dawud 1814 - "...[Abu Bakr] He then began to beat [his slave] him while the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) was smiling and saying: Look at this man who is in the sacred state (putting on ihram), what is he doing?"  The future first caliph of Islam is beating his slave for losing a camel while Muhammad looks on in apparent amusement.

Ibn Ishaq (734) - A slave girl is given a "violent beating" by Ali in the presence of Muhammad, who does nothing about it.

Ibn Ishaq (693) - "Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons."  Muhammad trades away women captured from the Banu Qurayza tribe to non-Muslim slave traders for property.  (Their men had beenexecuted after surrendering peacefully without a fight).

Umdat al-Salik (Reliance of the Traveller) (o9.13) - According to Sharia, when a child or woman is taken captive by Muslims, they become slaves by the mere fact of their capture.  A captured woman's previous marriage is immediately annulled.
[/td][/tr][/table]

 

[tkthafm]

You are showing me Qur'an quotes and Hadiths (taken out of context) that I already know.
Notice how this discussion is progressing, first you question the Qur'an itself (and then fail to address my evidence or provide evidence for your own claims)

then you post a bunch of out of context quotes claiming to show a contradiction..

then you post another new batch of out of context quotes claiming to show Islam treats women poorly..

then you post a new batch of out of context quotes claiming Islam encourages sexual slavery..

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

You are showing me Qur'an quotes and Hadiths (taken out of context) that I already know.

I have posted many quotes from the Quran in this thread and you give the same response trying to avoid the topic, not ONCE have you provided the right context


There are many passages up there, do me a favor and give me the context for each and every one of them-I'll wait

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

First of all, the face doesn't have to be covered.

How are the women punished ? Why not say protected ? It's all in how you view it. If you feel this is a punishment in not allowing women to go out and get attention/cause sexual thoughts towards them to come about from hundreds of men/tempt them (and themselves) into sin over the course of a day, I will agree with you that it is a punishment. Remember, these are MUSLIM women we are talking about... they don't WANT all of this in the first place (unlike other women who literally compete for attention). What about the other side of the coin ? Why should a Muslim woman have to go through this in the first place ? While it won't eliminate it, modest dress certainly cuts down on all of this and is best for Muslim society as a whole. If Muslim men walking around in public with their hair showing (gasp) had the same effect... be sure it would have been mandatory for men to cover their hair as well (keep in mind they already have their own dress code - covering from bellybutton to knee - and a large % of Muslim men do wear hair coverings ANYWAY - )

My thoughts on slavery ? I am against it and would personally never own a slave given the chance. Sexual slavery in the Qur'an ? Where ? This doesn't exist. Sex is only permissible with your partner in marriage. You cannot force marriage. It's really that simple. 

BRUH



This is the point...Who are you to say that you're protecting anyone when your book FORCES women to do that




Like who the hell are you?




Did you ever stop to consider that islam is misogynistic? Why do men make all the decisions on what WOMEN should do?




Again, HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS IF YOU DONT GIVE THEM THE OPTION




Women JUST got the right to vote in Saudi Arabia...like JUST...blame it on culture all you want but the oppressive nature of islam INATELY prevented this sort of progression. 




If a woman wants to wear a hijab, then LET HER... Who are you to say that you're doing her a favor by telling her she can't wear her breasts out?




In fact, if a woman wants to walk around topless, I DO NOT CARE...she isn't hurting anyone!




On top of that, restricting sexuality is why we have so many sexual deviants in the first place. You mean to tell me a catholic parishoner who is celibate isn't going to get sexually aroused EVER? Come on man...we're animals. All of us. Sex is natural. Restricting that just causes people to do some crazy things to get their rocks off. 




Its also why in islamic societies we have so many frustrated men who sexually do some pretty dirty things because they can't do "normal" things. 




Does god REALLY care if you cover your hair? I mean seriously. Can't god be trying to worry about feeding all the humans it created in parts of the world that haven't heard about jesus yet? or...allah or whatever? 




You're against slavery? 

...you sure?




You sure you're against slavery? 




Because that would mean that you don't need the koran to make basic humanistic decisions about life. You are actually more moral than your holy book says in the first place.

 

[tkthafm]

If I were to provide the context (as easy as reading the entire Sura to understand what the specific verse is referring to) you probably wouldn't even read it. You do a good job of copy/pasting all these anti-Islamic articles, but you can't click on the link providing the text chapter/verse and read the entire thing yourself ?

How do I know this ? Because I already did. I posted this link in the first post of this page, obviously you didn't read it. http://www.answering-chri...ape_of_female_slaves.htm http://muslim-responses.c...m_/Slave_girls_in_Islam_

If you read this you will see that forcing sex is clearly not allowed.

This is a favorite tactic of those attacking Islam. They'll quote one verse about fighting against the unbelievers, but leave out the preceding/proceeding verse about only doing so when they fight against you, and stopping when they stop attacking you

Oh what a barbaric religion !

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

If I were to provide the context (as easy as reading the entire Sura to understand what the specific verse is referring to)

Excuses Excuses

That's what I thought

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Originally Posted by tkthafm

First of all, the face doesn't have to be covered.

How are the women punished ? Why not say protected ? It's all in how you view it. If you feel this is a punishment in not allowing women to go out and get attention/cause sexual thoughts towards them to come about from hundreds of men/tempt them (and themselves) into sin over the course of a day, I will agree with you that it is a punishment. Remember, these are MUSLIM women we are talking about... they don't WANT all of this in the first place (unlike other women who literally compete for attention). What about the other side of the coin ? Why should a Muslim woman have to go through this in the first place ? While it won't eliminate it, modest dress certainly cuts down on all of this and is best for Muslim society as a whole. If Muslim men walking around in public with their hair showing (gasp) had the same effect... be sure it would have been mandatory for men to cover their hair as well (keep in mind they already have their own dress code - covering from bellybutton to knee - and a large % of Muslim men do wear hair coverings ANYWAY - )

My thoughts on slavery ? I am against it and would personally never own a slave given the chance. Sexual slavery in the Qur'an ? Where ? This doesn't exist. Sex is only permissible with your partner in marriage. You cannot force marriage. It's really that simple. 

BRUH



This is the point...Who are you to say that you're protecting anyone when your book FORCES women to do that




Like who the hell are you?




Did you ever stop to consider that islam is misogynistic? Why do men make all the decisions on what WOMEN should do?




Again, HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS IF YOU DONT GIVE THEM THE OPTION




Women JUST got the right to vote in Saudi Arabia...like JUST...blame it on culture all you want but the oppressive nature of islam INATELY prevented this sort of progression. 




If a woman wants to wear a hijab, then LET HER... Who are you to say that you're doing her a favor by telling her she can't wear her breasts out?




In fact, if a woman wants to walk around topless, I DO NOT CARE...she isn't hurting anyone!




On top of that, restricting sexuality is why we have so many sexual deviants in the first place. You mean to tell me a catholic parishoner who is celibate isn't going to get sexually aroused EVER? Come on man...we're animals. All of us. Sex is natural. Restricting that just causes people to do some crazy things to get their rocks off. 




Its also why in islamic societies we have so many frustrated men who sexually do some pretty dirty things because they can't do "normal" things. 




Does god REALLY care if you cover your hair? I mean seriously. Can't god be trying to worry about feeding all the humans it created in parts of the world that haven't heard about jesus yet? or...allah or whatever? 




You're against slavery? 

...you sure?




You sure you're against slavery? 




Because that would mean that you don't need the koran to make basic humanistic decisions about life. You are actually more moral than your holy book says in the first place.

LOL @ the things he's admitted to believing in in this thread well after establishing that he believes every word int he Koran (I did a good job baiting him into that one)

-Beating women
-Slavery
-Murder of non-Muslims


What else can we get him to admit to?

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

If I were to provide the context (as easy as reading the entire Sura to understand what the specific verse is referring to) you probably wouldn't even read it. You do a good job of copy/pasting all these anti-Islamic articles, but you can't click on the link providing the text chapter/verse and read the entire thing yourself ?

How do I know this ? Because I already did. I posted this link in the first post of this page, obviously you didn't read it. http://www.answering-chri...ape_of_female_slaves.htm http://muslim-responses.c...m_/Slave_girls_in_Islam_

If you read this you will see that forcing sex is clearly not allowed.

This is a favorite tactic of those attacking Islam. They'll quote one verse about fighting against the unbelievers, but leave out the preceding/proceeding verse about only doing so when they fight against you, and stopping when they stop attacking you

Oh what a barbaric religion !

Can you address these different versions of the Quran/Koran and their translations?
http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven.htm

Thanks. 

its funny to me that the "inerrant word of god" has so many "translations" 

 

[tkthafm]

Like I said, I already did provide the context if you read my sources.

Example: 

You posted: 24:32: "And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..."  Breeding slaves based on fitness. 

Really ?

The worst translation was purposefully chosen for this, and the whole quote was not even shown. 

Other translations:

YUSUFALI: Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female: if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things. 

PICKTHAL: And marry such of you as are solitary and the pious of your slaves and maid-servants. If they be poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware. 

But more importantly, the NEXT verse: 24:33: Let's see all translations (including the one they used for the previous quote, Shakir)

YUSUFALI: Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them), 

PICKTHAL: And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful. 

SHAKIR: And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Why not include this quote ? 

Oops, looks like sex slavery isn't allowed after all 

 

[antonlavey]

^^^^lol @ your interpretation/translation of the quote, isn't it interesting that different people have different interpretations of what the Quran says

? How can something be infallible, if it is "lost in translation"? This leaves room for evil men to use Islam for hatred, even you cannot deny this


Interpret the other quotes i posted, i'm entertained at what other creative interpretations you can come up with


There are several verses I posted pertaining to slavery, lets here what you have to say about a few more of them-

 

[tkthafm]

There is no interpretation.

This is only an issue because the Qur'an exists only in Arabic. All other "versions" in other languages are only human attempts at translation of the Qur'an, not the Qur'an itself. The "evil men" who are trying to use Islam for hatred in this case, are the very authors you are quoting (who are using childish tactics like quoting segments of a sentence.....) to convey their message that Islam is evil.

If you want to spend all day doing this (fetching out of context quotes and having them clarified) you have hundreds of websites on the internet who do this, because the same verses have been quoted for centuries to try and defame Islam. I'm not interested in doing the research for you.

We went from "this isn't really from God" to "but verse X:X says:"

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by tkthafm


Like I said, I already did provide the context if you read my sources.

Example: 

You posted: 24:32: "And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..."  Breeding slaves based on fitness. 

Really ?

The worst translation was purposefully chosen for this, and the whole quote was not even shown. 

Other translations:

YUSUFALI: Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female: if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things. 

PICKTHAL: And marry such of you as are solitary and the pious of your slaves and maid-servants. If they be poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware. 

But more importantly, the NEXT verse: 24:33: Let's see all translations (including the one they used for the previous quote, Shakir)

YUSUFALI: Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them), 

PICKTHAL: And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful. 

SHAKIR: And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Why not include this quote ? 

Oops, looks like sex slavery isn't allowed after all 

This dude can't be serious...
He posts interpretations of "scholars" on the koran and uses them as explanations 

Its like reading a review of a book and acting like you read the book itself. 

What type of passages do you have here anyways?

"do not compel your slave girls" ...so you have SLAVES. 

This dude just said he was against slavery...yet yoru book clearly includes and condones it.

Why are you posting passages about how to treat the same slaves you don't believe in?

Originally Posted by tkthafm

There is no interpretation. 

This is only an issue because the Qur'an exists only in Arabic. All other "versions" in other languages are only human attempts at translation of the Qur'an, not the Qur'an itself. The "evil men" who are trying to use Islam for hatred in this case, are the very authors you are quoting (who are using childish tactics like quoting segments of a sentence.....) to convey their message that Islam is evil. 

If you want to spend all day doing this (fetching out of context quotes and having them clarified) you have hundreds of websites on the internet who do this, because the same verses have been quoted for centuries to try and defame Islam. I'm not interested in doing the research for you. 

We went from "this isn't really from God" to "but verse X:X says:" 

The original bible was in aramaic and hebrew but that doesn't stop billions of christians from thinking thats the inerrant word of god when they translate it. 

Your argument is a non-factor.

Do you speak arabic fluently or do you rely on the same translations to make a point that you seek to distance yourself from? 

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

There is no interpretation.

This is only an issue because the Qur'an exists only in Arabic. All other "versions" in other languages are only human attempts at translation of the Qur'an, not the Qur'an itself. The "evil men" who are trying to use Islam for hatred in this case, are the very authors you are quoting (who are using childish tactics like quoting segments of a sentence.....) to convey their message that Islam is evil.

If you want to spend all day doing this (fetching out of context quotes and having them clarified) you have hundreds of websites on the internet who do this, because the same verses have been quoted for centuries to try and defame Islam. I'm not interested in doing the research for you.

We went from "this isn't really from God" to "but verse X:X says:"

The denial in your responses is baffling, you cant think of anyone else you interprets Islam for evil? Do i really have to give you a hint?

 

[south sole]

Amazon product ASIN 0982161891

 

[tkthafm]

Originally Posted by sillyputty

Originally Posted by tkthafm


Like I said, I already did provide the context if you read my sources.

Example: 

You posted: 24:32: "And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..."  Breeding slaves based on fitness. 

Really ?

The worst translation was purposefully chosen for this, and the whole quote was not even shown. 

Other translations:

YUSUFALI: Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female: if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things. 

PICKTHAL: And marry such of you as are solitary and the pious of your slaves and maid-servants. If they be poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware. 

But more importantly, the NEXT verse: 24:33: Let's see all translations (including the one they used for the previous quote, Shakir)

YUSUFALI: Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them), 

PICKTHAL: And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful. 

SHAKIR: And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Why not include this quote ? 

Oops, looks like sex slavery isn't allowed after all 

This dude can't be serious...
He posts interpretations of "scholars" on the koran and uses them as explanations 

Its like reading a review of a book and acting like you read the book itself. 

Actually I posted English translations of the book, smart guy.
Only alternative would be to post the verses in Arabic, but that doesn't exactly help anyone now does it 

 

[so nyuh shi dae]

I find it interesting that the Abrahamic god's weren't capable of providing a translation of their word in all languages.

 

[sillyputty]

 

[sillyputty]

 

[jhobson5]

sillyputty-Let it go man. You have proven your point about religion. But at the end of the day your opinion/point really doesn't mean anything to any person of religion. No Nike Talk thread will ever convince me or any other person that believes in religion that they are wrong. So really all your snide jokes, and thinking you are funny is to get LULZ and e props were worthless. So I hope you got everything you needed out of this thread. 

 

[sillyputty]

Originally Posted by jhobson5

sillyputty-Let it go man. You have proven your point about religion. But at the end of the day your opinion/point really doesn't mean anything to any person of religion. No Nike Talk thread will ever convince me or any other person that believes in religion that they are wrong. So really all your snide jokes, and thinking you are funny is to get LULZ and e props were worthless. So I hope you got everything you needed out of this thread. 

Boo hoo
Quit crying.

I usually would ignore this but I don't get why you get off with this fake victim syndrome.

First of all, I wasn't the only one being secular in this thread. 

Second of all, why do the pro-religious people get to cry fowl ALL THE TIME?

Third of all, not even counting the PMs and people I know in real life off of NT, MANY PEOPLE have thanked me for the stuff i've said. It may not help you specifically, but to say that no one has even benefitted from the stuff i've posted, is  completely and utterly wrong. 

It would be one thing if I started dropping religious stuff in EVERY THREAD...but I don't do that. I keep it HERE where it belongs. In the appropriate thread with the appropriate topic of conversation. 

On top of that, this utterly RIDICULOUS argument you keep saying about "this is just a sneakerboard" doesn't mean anything. We have people discussing a wide variety of topics that don't relate in the SLIGHTEST to sneakers or even footwear on this forum and yet you think you have made the rules for an adequate topic.

OK YOU HEARD HIM GUYS, SINCE ITS NIKETALK, LETS NOT TALK ABOUT WOMEN, POLITICS, GUNS, DRESSING UP, BUSINESS VENTURES, RASTACLAT BRACELETS, ANDROID DEVICES, PICTURES OF BREASTS, OUR FAVORITE BEERS, OR IF WE PEE IN THE SHOWER...

 

If the topic doesn't interest you or persuade you then DO NOT POST OR READ THE TOPIC. The remedy is simple.