Going Vegan for 7 days, any tips, tricks? Update: DAY 11 and I'm Still Doin It...kind of

[01heavencent]

I've been Vegan (diet only) for about a year and a half now and for what it's worth, those looking to make any type of long-term change, it becomes progressively easier and more routine the longer you practice.

You're going to have arguments from both sides saying, "meat has vitamins that you can't get from other foods," or "too much soy will boost estrogen levels." At the end of the day if its something you want to do, you should do it. Period. I've never felt better in my life and I think that alone is worth the dietary change.

My .02.

 

[01heavencent]

I've been Vegan (diet only) for about a year and a half now and for what it's worth, those looking to make any type of long-term change, it becomes progressively easier and more routine the longer you practice.

You're going to have arguments from both sides saying, "meat has vitamins that you can't get from other foods," or "too much soy will boost estrogen levels." At the end of the day if its something you want to do, you should do it. Period. I've never felt better in my life and I think that alone is worth the dietary change.

My .02.

 

[thebachellor]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

 I eat right and try to get enough fruits and veggies daily. For the most part I don't even eat much meat during the week. 

There is SO MUCH non meat food out in the world man. So much.

Like I mentioned early, I look forward to making my shakes in the AM. Right now I have been using the Lettuce, Cucumber, Carrot, Mixed Fruit, Celery mix. But in blender with water and ice and I am good until I make my breakfast.

I don't understand this reasoning. People really need to learn about nutrition before they start adjusting their diets.

What I don't get is this infatuation with arbitrary fruits and vegetables. You people probably don't even know what vitamins each fruit and vegetable is rich in yet you're throwing them in to a blender and drinking a smoothie and calling yourselves "healthy". 

The first and most important thing to nutrition is that there is no such thing as "unhealthy food". If you know what caloric intake you wish to meet (per day) and you're aware of your RDA, then all dieting consists of is eating servings of  "unhealthy foods" such that they don't have an adverse effect on the rest of your diet.

If that piece of steak contains 50% of your required fat consumption for the day, cool. Spread out the other 50% you have to consume throughout other meals.

Instead you have ignoramuses with no concept of "portioning" calling all meat unhealthy because they're eating 2 pounds of steak a day and getting 48382045% of their fat RDA from it.

Eating random fruits and vegetables is a horrible way to get your RDA for vitamins. Many fruits contain superfluous amounts of one (and only one) vitamin. For example, a kiwi contains 273% RDA of Vitamin C. So great, you have 1 vitamin down... what about the rest? You're just going to eat a specific fruit for each of the rest of the vitamins? Niacin (B3) you can only get in a non-trivial amount in meat (and foods such as fortified cold cereal, which we'll leave out since I assume that you healthnuts would consider that "unhealthy" as well). So what exactly are you eating 35 fruits a day for? I'm assuming its because you think they contain uber amounts of vitamins? Well they don't. So you're going to take a supplement, right? Ok, so how is that any different from us meat eaters who actually are aware of portioning who take supplements?

Its much more efficient to take a mult-vitamin and then focus on meeting your RDA for your fats, carbs, and proteins.

And what is all this about "protein supplements having questionable long-term effects"? You do realize that, molecularly, these proteins are the same as the ones you get in your foods right? Just like man-made diamonds are molecularly the same as diamonds found in nature?

Just because its made up in a laboratory doesn't mean its "fake" or "unnatural".

.

 

[thebachellor]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

 I eat right and try to get enough fruits and veggies daily. For the most part I don't even eat much meat during the week. 

There is SO MUCH non meat food out in the world man. So much.

Like I mentioned early, I look forward to making my shakes in the AM. Right now I have been using the Lettuce, Cucumber, Carrot, Mixed Fruit, Celery mix. But in blender with water and ice and I am good until I make my breakfast.

I don't understand this reasoning. People really need to learn about nutrition before they start adjusting their diets.

What I don't get is this infatuation with arbitrary fruits and vegetables. You people probably don't even know what vitamins each fruit and vegetable is rich in yet you're throwing them in to a blender and drinking a smoothie and calling yourselves "healthy". 

The first and most important thing to nutrition is that there is no such thing as "unhealthy food". If you know what caloric intake you wish to meet (per day) and you're aware of your RDA, then all dieting consists of is eating servings of  "unhealthy foods" such that they don't have an adverse effect on the rest of your diet.

If that piece of steak contains 50% of your required fat consumption for the day, cool. Spread out the other 50% you have to consume throughout other meals.

Instead you have ignoramuses with no concept of "portioning" calling all meat unhealthy because they're eating 2 pounds of steak a day and getting 48382045% of their fat RDA from it.

Eating random fruits and vegetables is a horrible way to get your RDA for vitamins. Many fruits contain superfluous amounts of one (and only one) vitamin. For example, a kiwi contains 273% RDA of Vitamin C. So great, you have 1 vitamin down... what about the rest? You're just going to eat a specific fruit for each of the rest of the vitamins? Niacin (B3) you can only get in a non-trivial amount in meat (and foods such as fortified cold cereal, which we'll leave out since I assume that you healthnuts would consider that "unhealthy" as well). So what exactly are you eating 35 fruits a day for? I'm assuming its because you think they contain uber amounts of vitamins? Well they don't. So you're going to take a supplement, right? Ok, so how is that any different from us meat eaters who actually are aware of portioning who take supplements?

Its much more efficient to take a mult-vitamin and then focus on meeting your RDA for your fats, carbs, and proteins.

And what is all this about "protein supplements having questionable long-term effects"? You do realize that, molecularly, these proteins are the same as the ones you get in your foods right? Just like man-made diamonds are molecularly the same as diamonds found in nature?

Just because its made up in a laboratory doesn't mean its "fake" or "unnatural".

.

 

[ninjallamafromhell]

What the hell is the point of going vegan for a week exactly?

 

[ninjallamafromhell]

What the hell is the point of going vegan for a week exactly?

 

[Methodical Management]

whats the difference between vegan and vegetarian?

so i cant drink normal milk if i wanted to be a vegan?
Vegans don't consume animal products.  Most prominently, that of course would include all meat and dairy products, but extends to gelatin and other animal-derived items.

all of the oldest living people in the world currently all eat meat  

That's a function of sample size.  I imagine that all of the oldest living people in the world are straight, too.  The larger your sample, the more outliers you tend to have.  The mean is a more interesting statistic, and more relevant for us as well.  Arguing on the margins has been a favorite rhetorical strategy of racists for years now.  Seriously, does the success of Oprah Winfrey and Barack Obama disprove the prevalence and perniciousness of contemporary institutional racism? 

If you want to look at averages, right now your best bet is a 2005 study by the German Cancer Research Center.  They performed the largest longitudinal study of vegetarians to date:  following 1,904 vegetarians (including 60 vegans) over a period of 21 years.  Veg*an males reduced their risk of early death by a whopping 50% compared to omnivores.  Women lessened their risk by 30%. 

Veg*ans lived over 6 years LONGER than their omnivorous counterparts - and this finding holds up even after controlling for potentially intervening factors like education, income, etc. 

What's the more interesting finding to you: that one in 3 billion people can live to be 130 years old while on an omnivorous diet or that the AVERAGE veg*an lives 6-10 years longer?  I'll tell you which odds I'd rather bet my life on...

Niacin (B3) you can only get in a non-trivial amount in meat (and foods such as fortified cold cereal, which we'll leave out since I assume that you healthnuts would consider that "unhealthy" as well).
Are you serious with this?   Your best animal source of Niacin is beef liver, yielding 17.5 mg of niacin per serving.  Most people aren't going to eat that.  Fried chicken breast, on the other hand, will net you 14.8 mg.

You can get 14.7 mg of niacin from peanuts - hardly a "trivial amount."  So, even if you swear off brown rice, whole wheat, etc. you can STILL get plenty of B3 via plant-based sources.

But we're not gorillas. Gorillas eat all day. We can't(assuming other obligations such as school, work, etc.). Gorillas have a very different digestive system from us as well. They aren't vegan either. They're omniverous, consuming insects, insect eggs, larvae, etcCheck this link out: http://www.westonaprice.o...ts/626-gorilla-diet.html
First of all, I think you're taking that too literally.  The point was about protein, and if you think gorillas receive the bulk of their protein from insects you're kidding yourself.   You can absolutely add muscle mass while on a plant-based diet.  I've done it and so have countless other athletes. 

As far as your article is concerned, here's something to pay attention to:

The Weston A. Price foundation is a total joke.  It's nothing more than a PR/lobbying group gussied up in the guise of a think tank.

I live in DC and shill think tanks are a dime a dozen in this town. They'renot hard to spot, particularly when their materials are so flagrantly biasedand fringe. Check out their funding sources: http://www.westonaprice.org/funding.html

The main sources of support for theWeston A. Price Foundation are the dues and contributions of its members. TheFoundation receives no funding from any government agency or food processingcorporation. Although many of our members are farmers, the Foundation has noties with the meat or dairy industry, nor with any organization promoting theseindustries. The Foundation promotes the production of food by independentfarmers and artisans, and not by industry.Contributions to the Weston A. PriceFoundation go towards the production of our magazine and informationalbrochures, the maintenance of our office and website, and two importantcampaigns--Soy Alert! and the Real Milk.
Gee, I wonder what sort of farmers finance thisorganization - considering their two most important campaigns are anti-soy andpro-cow milk. The fact that they have to deny formal ties with the meat ordairy industry shows just how slanted their "research" has been. Problem is, claiming that accepting funding from independent farmers doesn'tconstitute a tie to the meat or dairy industries is like saying that aninstitute funded by independent car dealers has no ties to the automotiveindustry, or that the NRA can produce fair and unbiased research on the effectsof proposed assault rifle bans because they're primarily supported by members,not gun manufacturers. Their members have an agenda. Ergo, they have an agenda.Their budget is beyond suspect, too. Over one-fifth of their annual budgetcomes from "miscellaneous" sources. What the hell is that?

Plus, you have to question the medical expertise of their namesake, WestonPrice: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/holisticdent.html

I don't know about you, but I'd rather get my nutrition information from doctors than an anthropology professor.  "University System of Georgia?"  Why won't he tell you that he actually teaches for the prestigious East Georgia College?

Where else can you find his riveting anti-vegetarian sermons?  Why, biblelife.org of course:  http://www.biblelife.org/abrams2.htm

Not their disclaimer:

MEDICAL DISCLAIMER: Allinformation is intended for your general knowledge only and is not a substitutefor medical advice or treatment for specific medical conditions. You should seekprompt medical care for any specific health issues and consult your physicianbefore starting a new fitness or nutrition regimen. The information contained inthis online site and email is presented in summary form only and intended toprovide broad consumer understanding and knowledge of dietary supplements. Theinformation should not be considered complete and should not be used in place ofa visit, call, consultation, or advice of your physician or other health careprovider. We do not recommend the self-management of health problems.Information obtained by using our services is not exhaustive and does not coverall diseases, ailments, physical conditions, or their treatment. Should you haveany health care related questions, please call or see your physician or otherhealth care provider promptly. You should never disregard medical advice ordelay in seeking it because of something you have read here. We strongly suggestyou select a physician who is knowledgeable and supportive of thelow-carbohydrate diet.
Come on now.  Is there ANY diet more thoroughly discredited than Atkins? 

So, to review, here's his basic thesis: "Anatomically and physiologically, the digestive organs of the human species are designed for both animal and plant foods." 

What do you say we heed the disclaimer and consult an actual doctor?  I don't know, I feel more comfortable asking an internist than an intern. 

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/11/the-comparative-anatomy-of-eating.html

I'm biased, but I found it a heck of a lot more detailed and far better substantiated than the article slapped together by the guy from East Georgia College, which was more an observation of what humans HAVE done as opposed to any meaningful analysis of human biology.

Other proponents of plant based diets include Dr. Neal Barnard, Dr. Benjamin Spock, and Dr. Charles Attwood.  These are world famous doctors, not just random degree holders propped up by a lobby.  Dr. Neal Barnard founded the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.  Dr. Spock is probably the most well known and respected pediatrician in history. 


Is it POSSIBLE to be healthy as an omnivore?  Sure.   It's also more than possible to be healthy as a vegan.  To think otherwise, at this point, is to fly in the face of reason. 

A lot of people are heavily invested in the status quo - whether financially or psychologically.  Unfortunately, people will ultimately need to accept the fact that they don't HAVE to kill other animals in order to fuel their bodies and that they CHOOSE to do so due to personal preference and convenience.  A chimpanzee facing severe constraints on his environment may have little choice but to survive on whatever's available, including flesh.  We, on the other hand, have the ability to walk into a supermarket and choose for ourselves.  Availability isn't an issue. 

It's a matter of choice.  I choose to be vegan.  While it's not currently the case, I earnestly hope that soon everyone will be empowered to choose veganism, too, if they wish. 

 

[Methodical Management]

whats the difference between vegan and vegetarian?

so i cant drink normal milk if i wanted to be a vegan?
Vegans don't consume animal products.  Most prominently, that of course would include all meat and dairy products, but extends to gelatin and other animal-derived items.

all of the oldest living people in the world currently all eat meat  

That's a function of sample size.  I imagine that all of the oldest living people in the world are straight, too.  The larger your sample, the more outliers you tend to have.  The mean is a more interesting statistic, and more relevant for us as well.  Arguing on the margins has been a favorite rhetorical strategy of racists for years now.  Seriously, does the success of Oprah Winfrey and Barack Obama disprove the prevalence and perniciousness of contemporary institutional racism? 

If you want to look at averages, right now your best bet is a 2005 study by the German Cancer Research Center.  They performed the largest longitudinal study of vegetarians to date:  following 1,904 vegetarians (including 60 vegans) over a period of 21 years.  Veg*an males reduced their risk of early death by a whopping 50% compared to omnivores.  Women lessened their risk by 30%. 

Veg*ans lived over 6 years LONGER than their omnivorous counterparts - and this finding holds up even after controlling for potentially intervening factors like education, income, etc. 

What's the more interesting finding to you: that one in 3 billion people can live to be 130 years old while on an omnivorous diet or that the AVERAGE veg*an lives 6-10 years longer?  I'll tell you which odds I'd rather bet my life on...

Niacin (B3) you can only get in a non-trivial amount in meat (and foods such as fortified cold cereal, which we'll leave out since I assume that you healthnuts would consider that "unhealthy" as well).
Are you serious with this?   Your best animal source of Niacin is beef liver, yielding 17.5 mg of niacin per serving.  Most people aren't going to eat that.  Fried chicken breast, on the other hand, will net you 14.8 mg.

You can get 14.7 mg of niacin from peanuts - hardly a "trivial amount."  So, even if you swear off brown rice, whole wheat, etc. you can STILL get plenty of B3 via plant-based sources.

But we're not gorillas. Gorillas eat all day. We can't(assuming other obligations such as school, work, etc.). Gorillas have a very different digestive system from us as well. They aren't vegan either. They're omniverous, consuming insects, insect eggs, larvae, etcCheck this link out: http://www.westonaprice.o...ts/626-gorilla-diet.html
First of all, I think you're taking that too literally.  The point was about protein, and if you think gorillas receive the bulk of their protein from insects you're kidding yourself.   You can absolutely add muscle mass while on a plant-based diet.  I've done it and so have countless other athletes. 

As far as your article is concerned, here's something to pay attention to:

The Weston A. Price foundation is a total joke.  It's nothing more than a PR/lobbying group gussied up in the guise of a think tank.

I live in DC and shill think tanks are a dime a dozen in this town. They'renot hard to spot, particularly when their materials are so flagrantly biasedand fringe. Check out their funding sources: http://www.westonaprice.org/funding.html

The main sources of support for theWeston A. Price Foundation are the dues and contributions of its members. TheFoundation receives no funding from any government agency or food processingcorporation. Although many of our members are farmers, the Foundation has noties with the meat or dairy industry, nor with any organization promoting theseindustries. The Foundation promotes the production of food by independentfarmers and artisans, and not by industry.Contributions to the Weston A. PriceFoundation go towards the production of our magazine and informationalbrochures, the maintenance of our office and website, and two importantcampaigns--Soy Alert! and the Real Milk.
Gee, I wonder what sort of farmers finance thisorganization - considering their two most important campaigns are anti-soy andpro-cow milk. The fact that they have to deny formal ties with the meat ordairy industry shows just how slanted their "research" has been. Problem is, claiming that accepting funding from independent farmers doesn'tconstitute a tie to the meat or dairy industries is like saying that aninstitute funded by independent car dealers has no ties to the automotiveindustry, or that the NRA can produce fair and unbiased research on the effectsof proposed assault rifle bans because they're primarily supported by members,not gun manufacturers. Their members have an agenda. Ergo, they have an agenda.Their budget is beyond suspect, too. Over one-fifth of their annual budgetcomes from "miscellaneous" sources. What the hell is that?

Plus, you have to question the medical expertise of their namesake, WestonPrice: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/holisticdent.html

I don't know about you, but I'd rather get my nutrition information from doctors than an anthropology professor.  "University System of Georgia?"  Why won't he tell you that he actually teaches for the prestigious East Georgia College?

Where else can you find his riveting anti-vegetarian sermons?  Why, biblelife.org of course:  http://www.biblelife.org/abrams2.htm

Not their disclaimer:

MEDICAL DISCLAIMER: Allinformation is intended for your general knowledge only and is not a substitutefor medical advice or treatment for specific medical conditions. You should seekprompt medical care for any specific health issues and consult your physicianbefore starting a new fitness or nutrition regimen. The information contained inthis online site and email is presented in summary form only and intended toprovide broad consumer understanding and knowledge of dietary supplements. Theinformation should not be considered complete and should not be used in place ofa visit, call, consultation, or advice of your physician or other health careprovider. We do not recommend the self-management of health problems.Information obtained by using our services is not exhaustive and does not coverall diseases, ailments, physical conditions, or their treatment. Should you haveany health care related questions, please call or see your physician or otherhealth care provider promptly. You should never disregard medical advice ordelay in seeking it because of something you have read here. We strongly suggestyou select a physician who is knowledgeable and supportive of thelow-carbohydrate diet.
Come on now.  Is there ANY diet more thoroughly discredited than Atkins? 

So, to review, here's his basic thesis: "Anatomically and physiologically, the digestive organs of the human species are designed for both animal and plant foods." 

What do you say we heed the disclaimer and consult an actual doctor?  I don't know, I feel more comfortable asking an internist than an intern. 

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/11/the-comparative-anatomy-of-eating.html

I'm biased, but I found it a heck of a lot more detailed and far better substantiated than the article slapped together by the guy from East Georgia College, which was more an observation of what humans HAVE done as opposed to any meaningful analysis of human biology.

Other proponents of plant based diets include Dr. Neal Barnard, Dr. Benjamin Spock, and Dr. Charles Attwood.  These are world famous doctors, not just random degree holders propped up by a lobby.  Dr. Neal Barnard founded the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.  Dr. Spock is probably the most well known and respected pediatrician in history. 


Is it POSSIBLE to be healthy as an omnivore?  Sure.   It's also more than possible to be healthy as a vegan.  To think otherwise, at this point, is to fly in the face of reason. 

A lot of people are heavily invested in the status quo - whether financially or psychologically.  Unfortunately, people will ultimately need to accept the fact that they don't HAVE to kill other animals in order to fuel their bodies and that they CHOOSE to do so due to personal preference and convenience.  A chimpanzee facing severe constraints on his environment may have little choice but to survive on whatever's available, including flesh.  We, on the other hand, have the ability to walk into a supermarket and choose for ourselves.  Availability isn't an issue. 

It's a matter of choice.  I choose to be vegan.  While it's not currently the case, I earnestly hope that soon everyone will be empowered to choose veganism, too, if they wish. 

 

[thebachellor]

Originally Posted by Method Man

Niacin (B3) you can only get in a non-trivial amount in meat (and foods such as fortified cold cereal, which we'll leave out since I assume that you healthnuts would consider that "unhealthy" as well).
Are you serious with this?   Your best animal source of Niacin is beef liver, yielding 17.5 mg of niacin per serving.  Most people aren't going to eat that.  Fried chicken breast, on the other hand, will net you 14.8 mg.

You can get 14.7 mg of niacin from peanuts - hardly a "trivial amount."  So, even if you swear off brown rice, whole wheat, etc. you can STILL get plenty of B3 via plant-based sources.

 




You conveniently left out the serving size that gives you 14.7 mg of niacin from peanuts. Since we're interested in RDAs, my research points to the fact that it would take about 5 handfuls of peanuts to get your RDA for niacin. Oh, I forgot to mention: each serving contains 100% of your RDA for fat. Oh, and a good portion of that is saturated fat, which I'm sure we all want.

Throwing caution to the wind and screwing up your caloric intake percentages (its been recommended that one's calories should come 65% from carbs, 25% from fats, and 10% from proteins) just to stick it to the face of omnivores ("SEE! LOOK! YOU CAN GET ALL YOUR VITAMINS FROM A VEGAN DIET!") is both ridiculous, non-sensible, and most importantly, hypocritical. You're supporting eating foods in unhealthy portions, when possibly the reason you turned vegan is because you deemed meat unhealthy, probably because you were eating it in unhealthy portions? Oh, ok.

I'm not denying that you can live a healthy life being a vegan, but lets stop these illusions that this particular diet doesn't suffer from the shortfalls of an omnivore diet (such as the one I pointed above). You're just taking a different, more difficult, and less delicious way to the top of the satiation mountain.

.

 

[thebachellor]

Originally Posted by Method Man

Niacin (B3) you can only get in a non-trivial amount in meat (and foods such as fortified cold cereal, which we'll leave out since I assume that you healthnuts would consider that "unhealthy" as well).
Are you serious with this?   Your best animal source of Niacin is beef liver, yielding 17.5 mg of niacin per serving.  Most people aren't going to eat that.  Fried chicken breast, on the other hand, will net you 14.8 mg.

You can get 14.7 mg of niacin from peanuts - hardly a "trivial amount."  So, even if you swear off brown rice, whole wheat, etc. you can STILL get plenty of B3 via plant-based sources.

 




You conveniently left out the serving size that gives you 14.7 mg of niacin from peanuts. Since we're interested in RDAs, my research points to the fact that it would take about 5 handfuls of peanuts to get your RDA for niacin. Oh, I forgot to mention: each serving contains 100% of your RDA for fat. Oh, and a good portion of that is saturated fat, which I'm sure we all want.

Throwing caution to the wind and screwing up your caloric intake percentages (its been recommended that one's calories should come 65% from carbs, 25% from fats, and 10% from proteins) just to stick it to the face of omnivores ("SEE! LOOK! YOU CAN GET ALL YOUR VITAMINS FROM A VEGAN DIET!") is both ridiculous, non-sensible, and most importantly, hypocritical. You're supporting eating foods in unhealthy portions, when possibly the reason you turned vegan is because you deemed meat unhealthy, probably because you were eating it in unhealthy portions? Oh, ok.

I'm not denying that you can live a healthy life being a vegan, but lets stop these illusions that this particular diet doesn't suffer from the shortfalls of an omnivore diet (such as the one I pointed above). You're just taking a different, more difficult, and less delicious way to the top of the satiation mountain.

.

 

[Methodical Management]

You conveniently left out the serving size that gives you 14.7 mg of niacin from peanuts. Since we're interested in RDAs, my research points to the fact that it would take about 5 handfuls of peanuts to get your RDA for niacin. Oh, I forgot to mention: each serving contains 100% of your RDA for fat. Oh, and a good portion of that is saturated fat, which I'm sure we all want.

How small are your hands?  3 oz of chicken gives you about the same amount of B3 as 1/2 a cup of peanuts.  If that's a huge issue, supplements abound.  Vega has a great line of performance supplements from whole food ingredients.  Vega Whole Food Health Optimizer includes 100% RDI of vitamins and minerals, plus probiotics.  Only 30% of that product's calories come from fats  It's the only source of niacin you'll need and it won't be the only thing you eat all day.  In fact, it accounts for just 30% of your RDA of saturated fats.

Let's be honest, it's beyond disingenuous to throw out saturated fat to dismiss nuts, seeds, and legumes when you're promoting the consumption of flesh and dairy - which are notoriously high in saturated fats and, of course, not all fats are the same. 

You're the one saying, "If that piece of steak contains 50% of your required fat consumption for the day, cool"   Of course, it's also loaded with hormones, cholesterol, etc. it's difficult to digest, and red meat consumption has been linked to cancer and elevated mortality rates, but, that notwithstanding, the basic point is that you should simply balance your diet so as to fulfill all of your dietary needs..... and you can absolutely do that on a vegan diet. 

So, what's the big deal?  You were perpetuating a myth that it's impossible to get B3 from plant sources.  Now, at least, you're acknowledging that's not the case.

You're betraying your own bias when you concede that what it really comes down to, for you, seems to be a matter of taste (which is subjective and malleable) and convenience. 

If you think factory farming is a great idea because you consider it easy and tasty, that's on you - but you can't sit here, with any background in nutrition, and pretend that a well-planned vegan diet is unhealthy.

 

[Methodical Management]

You conveniently left out the serving size that gives you 14.7 mg of niacin from peanuts. Since we're interested in RDAs, my research points to the fact that it would take about 5 handfuls of peanuts to get your RDA for niacin. Oh, I forgot to mention: each serving contains 100% of your RDA for fat. Oh, and a good portion of that is saturated fat, which I'm sure we all want.

How small are your hands?  3 oz of chicken gives you about the same amount of B3 as 1/2 a cup of peanuts.  If that's a huge issue, supplements abound.  Vega has a great line of performance supplements from whole food ingredients.  Vega Whole Food Health Optimizer includes 100% RDI of vitamins and minerals, plus probiotics.  Only 30% of that product's calories come from fats  It's the only source of niacin you'll need and it won't be the only thing you eat all day.  In fact, it accounts for just 30% of your RDA of saturated fats.

Let's be honest, it's beyond disingenuous to throw out saturated fat to dismiss nuts, seeds, and legumes when you're promoting the consumption of flesh and dairy - which are notoriously high in saturated fats and, of course, not all fats are the same. 

You're the one saying, "If that piece of steak contains 50% of your required fat consumption for the day, cool"   Of course, it's also loaded with hormones, cholesterol, etc. it's difficult to digest, and red meat consumption has been linked to cancer and elevated mortality rates, but, that notwithstanding, the basic point is that you should simply balance your diet so as to fulfill all of your dietary needs..... and you can absolutely do that on a vegan diet. 

So, what's the big deal?  You were perpetuating a myth that it's impossible to get B3 from plant sources.  Now, at least, you're acknowledging that's not the case.

You're betraying your own bias when you concede that what it really comes down to, for you, seems to be a matter of taste (which is subjective and malleable) and convenience. 

If you think factory farming is a great idea because you consider it easy and tasty, that's on you - but you can't sit here, with any background in nutrition, and pretend that a well-planned vegan diet is unhealthy.

 

[thekryptonite]

Originally Posted by Method Man

You conveniently left out the serving size that gives you 14.7 mg of niacin from peanuts. Since we're interested in RDAs, my research points to the fact that it would take about 5 handfuls of peanuts to get your RDA for niacin. Oh, I forgot to mention: each serving contains 100% of your RDA for fat. Oh, and a good portion of that is saturated fat, which I'm sure we all want.

How small are your hands?  3 oz of chicken gives you about the same amount of B3 as 1/2 a cup of peanuts.  If that's a huge issue, supplements abound.  Vega has a great line of performance supplements from whole food ingredients.  Vega Whole Food Health Optimizer includes 100% RDI of vitamins and minerals, plus probiotics.  Only 30% of that product's calories come from fats  It's the only source of niacin you'll need and it won't be the only thing you eat all day.  In fact, it accounts for just 30% of your RDA of saturated fats.

Let's be honest, it's beyond disingenuous to throw out saturated fat to dismiss nuts, seeds, and legumes when you're promoting the consumption of flesh and dairy - which are notoriously high in saturated fats and, of course, not all fats are the same. 

You're the one saying, "If that piece of steak contains 50% of your required fat consumption for the day, cool"   Of course, it's also loaded with hormones, cholesterol, etc. it's difficult to digest, and red meat consumption has been linked to cancer and elevated mortality rates, but, that notwithstanding, the basic point is that you should simply balance your diet so as to fulfill all of your dietary needs..... and you can absolutely do that on a vegan diet. 

So, what's the big deal?  You were perpetuating a myth that it's impossible to get B3 from plant sources.  Now, at least, you're acknowledging that's not the case.

You're betraying your own bias when you concede that what it really comes down to, for you, seems to be a matter of taste (which is subjective and malleable) and convenience. 

If you think factory farming is a great idea because you consider it easy and tasty, that's on you - but you can't sit here, with any background in nutrition, and pretend that a well-planned vegan diet is unhealthy.

He tried starting an argument with the wrong person.

 

[thekryptonite]

Originally Posted by Method Man

You conveniently left out the serving size that gives you 14.7 mg of niacin from peanuts. Since we're interested in RDAs, my research points to the fact that it would take about 5 handfuls of peanuts to get your RDA for niacin. Oh, I forgot to mention: each serving contains 100% of your RDA for fat. Oh, and a good portion of that is saturated fat, which I'm sure we all want.

How small are your hands?  3 oz of chicken gives you about the same amount of B3 as 1/2 a cup of peanuts.  If that's a huge issue, supplements abound.  Vega has a great line of performance supplements from whole food ingredients.  Vega Whole Food Health Optimizer includes 100% RDI of vitamins and minerals, plus probiotics.  Only 30% of that product's calories come from fats  It's the only source of niacin you'll need and it won't be the only thing you eat all day.  In fact, it accounts for just 30% of your RDA of saturated fats.

Let's be honest, it's beyond disingenuous to throw out saturated fat to dismiss nuts, seeds, and legumes when you're promoting the consumption of flesh and dairy - which are notoriously high in saturated fats and, of course, not all fats are the same. 

You're the one saying, "If that piece of steak contains 50% of your required fat consumption for the day, cool"   Of course, it's also loaded with hormones, cholesterol, etc. it's difficult to digest, and red meat consumption has been linked to cancer and elevated mortality rates, but, that notwithstanding, the basic point is that you should simply balance your diet so as to fulfill all of your dietary needs..... and you can absolutely do that on a vegan diet. 

So, what's the big deal?  You were perpetuating a myth that it's impossible to get B3 from plant sources.  Now, at least, you're acknowledging that's not the case.

You're betraying your own bias when you concede that what it really comes down to, for you, seems to be a matter of taste (which is subjective and malleable) and convenience. 

If you think factory farming is a great idea because you consider it easy and tasty, that's on you - but you can't sit here, with any background in nutrition, and pretend that a well-planned vegan diet is unhealthy.

He tried starting an argument with the wrong person.

 

[therav4]

Yeah, Meth is great in stating arguements while actually backing it up with sources and facts. It seems like every couple months there's a thread on a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle, and I always have to mention that Meth helped me out with some good material when I started last year. Meth where did you go to school? The reason I ask is because I wonder if you studied a program similar to this subject... or maybe you didn't and you know a lot about this based off of novels and books that are published.

 

[therav4]

Yeah, Meth is great in stating arguements while actually backing it up with sources and facts. It seems like every couple months there's a thread on a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle, and I always have to mention that Meth helped me out with some good material when I started last year. Meth where did you go to school? The reason I ask is because I wonder if you studied a program similar to this subject... or maybe you didn't and you know a lot about this based off of novels and books that are published.

 

[Methodical Management]

He tried starting an argument with the wrong person.
I have no doubt that he knows his stuff - he just took an extreme and largely unsupported position in order to justify his choice of lifestyle.  I'd have made the same mistake IF I said it was impossible to be healthy as an omnivore.  I know full well that's not the case. 

My whole point is, and has been, that, for those of us who are so fortunately privileged to enjoy what ought to be a universal right to select, of ourselves, our diets, we DO have the power to choose the extent to wish we're willing to harm others in order to meet our own individual nutritional needs. 

Our positions aren't fundamentally incompatible - he just overstepped in dismissing plant based sources of B3.  Not a big deal. 

Apparently he hasn't had much interest in exploring plant-based avenues toward optimum nutrition.  He has his sources that he's comfortable with and I have mine.  Those interested in the plant option should know that it's perfectly viable and that you'll get all the vitamins and minerals you need as long as you plan your diet properly. 

It seems like every couple months there's a thread on a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle, and I always have to mention that Meth helped me out with some good material when I started last year. Meth where did you go to school? The reason I ask is because I wonder if you studied a program similar to this subject... or maybe you didn't and you know a lot about this based off of novels and books that are published.
I've noticed that over the last couple of years more and more people are stepping into threads like this one and providing really helpful information about veg*an diets - so it's not like I see the word "vegan" and feel like it's the bat signal or something.  The same thing happened over the years with posts on racism and social inequality.  As the community continues to diversify, more and more of our fellow members have contributed their awareness on social justice issues and other matters I'm passionate about.  As an added bonus, it takes a lot of the onus off of me to have to represent. 

As you know, I value my privacy online (we've all seen what can happen to those who've let their guard down), so I'd prefer not to get into alma maters, etc.  I will say that I've selected universities based, in part, on their ability to offer rich, interdisciplinary education.  It's a tremendous advantage to tap into renowned programs that just happen to be outside of your own department headings. 

As far as veganism and animal rights are concerned, even today I don't think you're going to find a heck of a lot on that within formal academic classes - though I'd love to hear some examples of this being the case.  I consider that a natural extension of social justice issues, as well as my interests in general health and athletic training, so even though I've had to be something of an autodidact in vegan issues it's not as though I was without a fairly well defined resource network.  As you know, I'm always happy to talk about book recommendations and things of that sort with anyone interested.  I hope you're still doing well. 

 

[Methodical Management]

He tried starting an argument with the wrong person.
I have no doubt that he knows his stuff - he just took an extreme and largely unsupported position in order to justify his choice of lifestyle.  I'd have made the same mistake IF I said it was impossible to be healthy as an omnivore.  I know full well that's not the case. 

My whole point is, and has been, that, for those of us who are so fortunately privileged to enjoy what ought to be a universal right to select, of ourselves, our diets, we DO have the power to choose the extent to wish we're willing to harm others in order to meet our own individual nutritional needs. 

Our positions aren't fundamentally incompatible - he just overstepped in dismissing plant based sources of B3.  Not a big deal. 

Apparently he hasn't had much interest in exploring plant-based avenues toward optimum nutrition.  He has his sources that he's comfortable with and I have mine.  Those interested in the plant option should know that it's perfectly viable and that you'll get all the vitamins and minerals you need as long as you plan your diet properly. 

It seems like every couple months there's a thread on a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle, and I always have to mention that Meth helped me out with some good material when I started last year. Meth where did you go to school? The reason I ask is because I wonder if you studied a program similar to this subject... or maybe you didn't and you know a lot about this based off of novels and books that are published.
I've noticed that over the last couple of years more and more people are stepping into threads like this one and providing really helpful information about veg*an diets - so it's not like I see the word "vegan" and feel like it's the bat signal or something.  The same thing happened over the years with posts on racism and social inequality.  As the community continues to diversify, more and more of our fellow members have contributed their awareness on social justice issues and other matters I'm passionate about.  As an added bonus, it takes a lot of the onus off of me to have to represent. 

As you know, I value my privacy online (we've all seen what can happen to those who've let their guard down), so I'd prefer not to get into alma maters, etc.  I will say that I've selected universities based, in part, on their ability to offer rich, interdisciplinary education.  It's a tremendous advantage to tap into renowned programs that just happen to be outside of your own department headings. 

As far as veganism and animal rights are concerned, even today I don't think you're going to find a heck of a lot on that within formal academic classes - though I'd love to hear some examples of this being the case.  I consider that a natural extension of social justice issues, as well as my interests in general health and athletic training, so even though I've had to be something of an autodidact in vegan issues it's not as though I was without a fairly well defined resource network.  As you know, I'm always happy to talk about book recommendations and things of that sort with anyone interested.  I hope you're still doing well. 

 

[thebachellor]

Originally Posted by Method Man

You conveniently left out the serving size that gives you 14.7 mg of niacin from peanuts. Since we're interested in RDAs, my research points to the fact that it would take about 5 handfuls of peanuts to get your RDA for niacin. Oh, I forgot to mention: each serving contains 100% of your RDA for fat. Oh, and a good portion of that is saturated fat, which I'm sure we all want.

How small are your hands?  3 oz of chicken gives you about the same amount of B3 as 1/2 a cup of peanuts.  If that's a huge issue, supplements abound.  Vega has a great line of performance supplements from whole food ingredients.  Vega Whole Food Health Optimizer includes 100% RDI of vitamins and minerals, plus probiotics.  Only 30% of that product's calories come from fats  It's the only source of niacin you'll need and it won't be the only thing you eat all day.  In fact, it accounts for just 30% of your RDA of saturated fats.

Let's be honest, it's beyond disingenuous to throw out saturated fat to dismiss nuts, seeds, and legumes when you're promoting the consumption of flesh and dairy - which are notoriously high in saturated fats and, of course, not all fats are the same. 

You're the one saying, "If that piece of steak contains 50% of your required fat consumption for the day, cool"   Of course, it's also loaded with hormones, cholesterol, etc. it's difficult to digest, and red meat consumption has been linked to cancer and elevated mortality rates, but, that notwithstanding, the basic point is that you should simply balance your diet so as to fulfill all of your dietary needs..... and you can absolutely do that on a vegan diet. 

So, what's the big deal?  You were perpetuating a myth that it's impossible to get B3 from plant sources.  Now, at least, you're acknowledging that's not the case.

You're betraying your own bias when you concede that what it really comes down to, for you, seems to be a matter of taste (which is subjective and malleable) and convenience. 

If you think factory farming is a great idea because you consider it easy and tasty, that's on you - but you can't sit here, with any background in nutrition, and pretend that a well-planned vegan diet is unhealthy.

Let's be honest, it's beyond disingenuous to throw out saturated fat to dismiss nuts, seeds, and legumes when you're promoting the consumption of flesh and dairy - which are notoriously high in saturated fats and, of course, not all fats are the same.

How is that disingenuous? The object of pointing that out was to illustrate the point that nuts, seeds, and many of the foods that you vegans praise have large quantities of nutritional items that are not desirable, as is the case with meat. Yet you people parade around as if they don't. You conveniently left that fact out in order to perpetuate the myth that all nuts, seeds, and legumes are completely and utterly healthy and contain no drawbacks to eating them in quantities that get you the RDAs of various nutrients. My statement was not typed with the intention of putting one diet above the other (in that sense, any way).

You're the one saying, "If that piece of steak contains 50% of your required fat consumption for the day, cool"   Of course, it's also loaded with hormones, cholesterol, etc. it's difficult to digest, and red meat consumption has been linked to cancer and elevated mortality rates, but, that notwithstanding, the basic point is that you should simply balance your diet so as to fulfill all of your dietary needs..... and you can absolutely do that on a vegan diet.

I'm going to need links to the studies that allude to these facts. Of course, these studies also have to require subjects that consume meat with "portioning" in mind (which is what I'm arguing), which I doubt they do. Keep in mind that your statement was that the mere consumption of red meat has been linked to cancer, no matter the amount. I'm going to create a study in which I monitor the health of people who consume a large amount of peanuts every single day, for the rest of their lives. What do you suppose the results of that study will be? I'm willing to bet that they won't be in the best of health with all that saturated fat in their systems.

So, what's the big deal?  You were perpetuating a myth that it's impossible to get B3 from plant sources.  Now, at least, you're acknowledging that's not the case.


You're betraying your own bias when you concede that what it really comes down to, for you, seems to be a matter of taste (which is subjective and malleable) and convenience.



When that B3 argument was made, it was made with the notion of serving size in mind. I knew you would come back and list some type of nut and claim that its high in B3 as well, and I exploited the fact that the serving size required to get your RDA was unhealthy. Of course, the meat items that are high in B3 also contain undesirable quantities of nutritional items (liver contains an inordinate amount of cholesterol), however the point was to illustrate the similarities in the flaws of both types of diets. You fell right in to the trap.

If you think factory farming is a great idea because you consider it easy and tasty, that's on you - but you can't sit here, with any background in nutrition, and pretend that a well-planned vegan diet is unhealthy.

Straw man. That is not the point I'm presenting.

 

[thebachellor]

Originally Posted by Method Man

You conveniently left out the serving size that gives you 14.7 mg of niacin from peanuts. Since we're interested in RDAs, my research points to the fact that it would take about 5 handfuls of peanuts to get your RDA for niacin. Oh, I forgot to mention: each serving contains 100% of your RDA for fat. Oh, and a good portion of that is saturated fat, which I'm sure we all want.

How small are your hands?  3 oz of chicken gives you about the same amount of B3 as 1/2 a cup of peanuts.  If that's a huge issue, supplements abound.  Vega has a great line of performance supplements from whole food ingredients.  Vega Whole Food Health Optimizer includes 100% RDI of vitamins and minerals, plus probiotics.  Only 30% of that product's calories come from fats  It's the only source of niacin you'll need and it won't be the only thing you eat all day.  In fact, it accounts for just 30% of your RDA of saturated fats.

Let's be honest, it's beyond disingenuous to throw out saturated fat to dismiss nuts, seeds, and legumes when you're promoting the consumption of flesh and dairy - which are notoriously high in saturated fats and, of course, not all fats are the same. 

You're the one saying, "If that piece of steak contains 50% of your required fat consumption for the day, cool"   Of course, it's also loaded with hormones, cholesterol, etc. it's difficult to digest, and red meat consumption has been linked to cancer and elevated mortality rates, but, that notwithstanding, the basic point is that you should simply balance your diet so as to fulfill all of your dietary needs..... and you can absolutely do that on a vegan diet. 

So, what's the big deal?  You were perpetuating a myth that it's impossible to get B3 from plant sources.  Now, at least, you're acknowledging that's not the case.

You're betraying your own bias when you concede that what it really comes down to, for you, seems to be a matter of taste (which is subjective and malleable) and convenience. 

If you think factory farming is a great idea because you consider it easy and tasty, that's on you - but you can't sit here, with any background in nutrition, and pretend that a well-planned vegan diet is unhealthy.

Let's be honest, it's beyond disingenuous to throw out saturated fat to dismiss nuts, seeds, and legumes when you're promoting the consumption of flesh and dairy - which are notoriously high in saturated fats and, of course, not all fats are the same.

How is that disingenuous? The object of pointing that out was to illustrate the point that nuts, seeds, and many of the foods that you vegans praise have large quantities of nutritional items that are not desirable, as is the case with meat. Yet you people parade around as if they don't. You conveniently left that fact out in order to perpetuate the myth that all nuts, seeds, and legumes are completely and utterly healthy and contain no drawbacks to eating them in quantities that get you the RDAs of various nutrients. My statement was not typed with the intention of putting one diet above the other (in that sense, any way).

You're the one saying, "If that piece of steak contains 50% of your required fat consumption for the day, cool"   Of course, it's also loaded with hormones, cholesterol, etc. it's difficult to digest, and red meat consumption has been linked to cancer and elevated mortality rates, but, that notwithstanding, the basic point is that you should simply balance your diet so as to fulfill all of your dietary needs..... and you can absolutely do that on a vegan diet.

I'm going to need links to the studies that allude to these facts. Of course, these studies also have to require subjects that consume meat with "portioning" in mind (which is what I'm arguing), which I doubt they do. Keep in mind that your statement was that the mere consumption of red meat has been linked to cancer, no matter the amount. I'm going to create a study in which I monitor the health of people who consume a large amount of peanuts every single day, for the rest of their lives. What do you suppose the results of that study will be? I'm willing to bet that they won't be in the best of health with all that saturated fat in their systems.

So, what's the big deal?  You were perpetuating a myth that it's impossible to get B3 from plant sources.  Now, at least, you're acknowledging that's not the case.


You're betraying your own bias when you concede that what it really comes down to, for you, seems to be a matter of taste (which is subjective and malleable) and convenience.



When that B3 argument was made, it was made with the notion of serving size in mind. I knew you would come back and list some type of nut and claim that its high in B3 as well, and I exploited the fact that the serving size required to get your RDA was unhealthy. Of course, the meat items that are high in B3 also contain undesirable quantities of nutritional items (liver contains an inordinate amount of cholesterol), however the point was to illustrate the similarities in the flaws of both types of diets. You fell right in to the trap.

If you think factory farming is a great idea because you consider it easy and tasty, that's on you - but you can't sit here, with any background in nutrition, and pretend that a well-planned vegan diet is unhealthy.

Straw man. That is not the point I'm presenting.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

TheBachellor, nice link on fallacies. I know what I will be reading for the rest of the night.

Ok, question for you. I understand your point of, "Just because you put in a bunch of fruits/veggies into a blender doesn't make it healthy." Can you tell me what I need to be looking for when consuming fruits and veggies in terms of blending them for easy consumption.

Thanks

 

[DCAllAfrican]

TheBachellor, nice link on fallacies. I know what I will be reading for the rest of the night.

Ok, question for you. I understand your point of, "Just because you put in a bunch of fruits/veggies into a blender doesn't make it healthy." Can you tell me what I need to be looking for when consuming fruits and veggies in terms of blending them for easy consumption.

Thanks

 

[martin and co]

Originally Posted by Method Man

Two more days, I don't see myself carrying this on much longer. I know it's still been only 5 days, but I have yet to notice anything really great about the way I feel. Although, I am thinking it's time to go all fish and some dairy as others have pointed out. I've given up meat the last two years for lent...Now I'm wondering about the next challenge. Two more days, two more days...

If you were out of shape, would you quit training after ONE week 1) because it's hard and 2) because you didn't "notice anything really great" about the way you feel?

For anyone interested, here are a couple of good books for vegan athletes:

Thrive: The Vegan Nutrition Guide to Optimal Performance in Sports and Life
http://store.veganessentials.com/ve...ng-your-body-on-a-plant-based-diet-p3014.aspx

Research through Google ways that a vegetarian gets protein. I won't copy and paste for you because you will learn more if you do your own research. But the whole protein issue is overrated if you ask me.
Exactly.  Gorillas, who often exceed 450 pounds and are far stronger than humans, are herbivorous.  Where are you gonna get your protein?  The same place the cow got his.  The only difference is, since you're not going through an intermediary, you'll bypass all of the growth hormones, cholesterol, etc. found in animal products. 

There's a reason why so many people with heart problems convert to vegan diets.  Personally, I'd rather use it to avoid heart problems entirely.  An ounce of prevention, as they say.

It's really not that difficult once you become acclimated to it.  There are plenty of vegan snacks and junk foods out there for people who choose the diet solely for ethical and/or environmental reasons, but then you're still going to deal with cravings, lack of energy, etc. because you aren't eating real, whole foods.  You're not gonna live on corn chips.

If you're going to eat plant-based junk just to make it through a week as a dare or a challenge, fine - it's productive in the sense that any reduction in the consumption of animal products can be interpreted as a net gain - but that's like using Shake Weight for a week and saying "Man, I don't know what this whole exercise craze is all about.  I'll tell you, I worked out hard for a whole week and it didn't do anything for me.  What a waste of time and money."  Ultramarathon runners, triathletes, MMA fighters, bodybuilders, and other professional athletes have all praised the benefits of vegan diets, particularly raw vegan diets.  It just comes down to whether you really want to do it or not.

I'm sure you've struggled with this issue already, but it's a little bit ironic that you run a website called "nike" talk, as I am willing to bet nike is the single largest purchaser of dead animal skins in the world. Considering also that the leather nike uses is of the absolute lowest attainable quality -- squeezing the already razor thin margins of the meat processors and tanners thinner, the standard husbandry practices employed by the factory farms raising the animals for slaughter are macabre. 

 

[martin and co]

Originally Posted by Method Man

Two more days, I don't see myself carrying this on much longer. I know it's still been only 5 days, but I have yet to notice anything really great about the way I feel. Although, I am thinking it's time to go all fish and some dairy as others have pointed out. I've given up meat the last two years for lent...Now I'm wondering about the next challenge. Two more days, two more days...

If you were out of shape, would you quit training after ONE week 1) because it's hard and 2) because you didn't "notice anything really great" about the way you feel?

For anyone interested, here are a couple of good books for vegan athletes:

Thrive: The Vegan Nutrition Guide to Optimal Performance in Sports and Life
http://store.veganessentials.com/ve...ng-your-body-on-a-plant-based-diet-p3014.aspx

Research through Google ways that a vegetarian gets protein. I won't copy and paste for you because you will learn more if you do your own research. But the whole protein issue is overrated if you ask me.
Exactly.  Gorillas, who often exceed 450 pounds and are far stronger than humans, are herbivorous.  Where are you gonna get your protein?  The same place the cow got his.  The only difference is, since you're not going through an intermediary, you'll bypass all of the growth hormones, cholesterol, etc. found in animal products. 

There's a reason why so many people with heart problems convert to vegan diets.  Personally, I'd rather use it to avoid heart problems entirely.  An ounce of prevention, as they say.

It's really not that difficult once you become acclimated to it.  There are plenty of vegan snacks and junk foods out there for people who choose the diet solely for ethical and/or environmental reasons, but then you're still going to deal with cravings, lack of energy, etc. because you aren't eating real, whole foods.  You're not gonna live on corn chips.

If you're going to eat plant-based junk just to make it through a week as a dare or a challenge, fine - it's productive in the sense that any reduction in the consumption of animal products can be interpreted as a net gain - but that's like using Shake Weight for a week and saying "Man, I don't know what this whole exercise craze is all about.  I'll tell you, I worked out hard for a whole week and it didn't do anything for me.  What a waste of time and money."  Ultramarathon runners, triathletes, MMA fighters, bodybuilders, and other professional athletes have all praised the benefits of vegan diets, particularly raw vegan diets.  It just comes down to whether you really want to do it or not.

I'm sure you've struggled with this issue already, but it's a little bit ironic that you run a website called "nike" talk, as I am willing to bet nike is the single largest purchaser of dead animal skins in the world. Considering also that the leather nike uses is of the absolute lowest attainable quality -- squeezing the already razor thin margins of the meat processors and tanners thinner, the standard husbandry practices employed by the factory farms raising the animals for slaughter are macabre. 

 

[Methodical Management]

How is that disingenuous? The object of pointing that out was to illustrate the point that nuts, seeds, and many of the foods that you vegans praise have large quantities of nutritional items that are not desirable, as is the case with meat. Yet you people parade around as if they don't. You conveniently left that fact out in order to perpetuate the myth that all nuts, seeds, and legumes are completely and utterly healthy and contain no drawbacks to eating them in quantities that get you the RDAs of various nutrients. [color= rgb(255, 255, 0)]My statement was not typed with the intention of putting one diet above the other (in that sense, any way).[/color]

You're just taking a different, more difficult, and less delicious way to the top of the satiation mountain.
Right, and you're not promoting one diet over another...

Let's talk about portion sizes for a moment.  Again, beef liver is your gold standard in B3, right?  You were the one to say, "If that piece of steak contains 50% of your required fat consumption for the day, cool," correct?

Let's look at beef liver:  http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3470/2  Mmm... pan fried beef liver - with that wonderful 14.2 mg of Niacin in just one slice.  You also get a full 21.5 grams of protein - 43% of your RDA, and only 6% of your saturated fat!  Chew on that, hippies! 

Oh... wait a second... that also provides 103% of your RDA of dietary cholesterol.  So, if that's the only thing you eat all day - you're still OD'ing. 

Chicken has lower cholesterol, but the Vega supplement I mentioned has less fat.  So if your whole point was that beef steak is a healthier source of Niacin, you're wrong, and if your point was that you can't get a "significant" quantity of B3 from a plant source, you're ALSO wrong.  Again that's ONE serving of beef.

Keep in mind, you ALSO said "Just because its made up in a laboratory doesn't mean its "fake" or "unnatural"."  So do NOT come back by saying that there's something wrong with using a vegan dietary supplement.

Split hairs if you like. 

What I care about is this:  you can get all of your vitamins and minerals from a healthy plant based diet. 

I'm going to need links to the studies that allude to these facts. Of course, these studies also have to require subjects that consume meat with "portioning" in mind (which is what I'm arguing), which I doubt they do. Keep in mind that your statement was that the mere consumption of red meat has been linked to cancer, no matter the amount. I'm going to create a study in which I monitor the health of people who consume a large amount of peanuts every single day, for the rest of their lives. What do you suppose the results of that study will be? I'm willing to bet that they won't be in the best of health with all that saturated fat in their systems.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/23/AR2009032301626.html  I believe it was on the front page that day.

Those who ate FOUR OUNCES of red meat a day - around one SMALL hamburger - were THIRTY PERCENT more likely to die of heart disease and cancer within ten years. 

Don't tell me four ounces fits outside your definition of a "sensible serving."  Again, the N for that one was 500,000 people.  Big enough sample for you?

When that B3 argument was made, it was made with the notion of serving size in mind. I knew you would come back and list some type of nut and claim that its high in B3 as well, and I exploited the fact that the serving size required to get your RDA was unhealthy. Of course, the meat items that are high in B3 also contain undesirable quantities of nutritional items (liver contains an inordinate amount of cholesterol), however the point was to illustrate the similarities in the flaws of both types of diets. You fell right in to the trap.
You're so proud of yourself - but what did you accomplish? 

You said that you CAN'T get enough Niacin from a plant based source.  I said that you can.  You griped about saturated fats.  No problem.  I linked you to a source that offers all the B3 you need without all the fat. 

Way to go.  You certainly showed me.

If you think factory farming is a great idea because you consider it easy and tasty, that's on you - but you can't sit here, with any background in nutrition, and pretend that a well-planned vegan diet is unhealthy.

Straw man. That is not the point I'm presenting.

Then you shouldn't have presented in that throw-in line about difficulty and flavor in your arrogance. 

If you agree that a well planned vegan diet is unhealthy, then you're only succeeded in traveling the long way around the block to argue a moot point.