Grey market discussion thread (Let's keep the discussion mature) Rules on pg 1 please read before yo

[jyung101]

Why is everybody being so personal about the issue??? It ain't that serious especially since dude is flaking on providing substantial physical evidence. Stop bickering and let the man prove his point......ninja the floor is yours we are all going to wait for the evidence. Go ahead show us

 

[SteveSteve72]

well re-name da thread then to "grey market discussion thread" or something.

Done.
I don't know how long it will last. Meth might come in and lock it up. But I guess we'll see what happens.

 

[jyung101]

He should sticky it. So we can go ahead let the world know wether this fairy tale is true or not. Come on Ninja show us those emails from your source. Anything physical would be nice. Lets see what you and air randy talk about

 

[gry60]

I posted this article before and I think it could be appropriate in this particular thread:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/05/01/8375455/

Here are some interesting excerpts about:

- The origins of grey market products

Now that Western companies are pervasively outsourcing the manufacture of their products to factories overseas, they're entrusting their precious intellectual property - designs, molds, specifications, trade secrets - to hundreds of contractors and subcontractors all over the world. It's extremely hard to police global supply chains, and IP is leaking out through 1,000 cracks.

The simplest and most dramatic form of the problem is something that Asia-based investigators jocularly refer to as the "third shift," the "midnight shift," or the "ghost shift." Say a U.S. company orders 20,000 dresses from an overseas factory. The contractor fills the order during its two day shifts but then runs off 10,000 extra at night, possibly using inferior materials. Those he sells out the back door, so to speak, trademark and all.

- The issues they can create

Sometimes even brand owners can't tell whether an unauthorized product is a counterfeit (a product bearing a trademark that its maker never had authority to use) or the result of third-shift activity.

In late 2001, for instance, Too Inc., which runs the Limited Too chain of clothing stores for girls, discovered that discounter TJ Maxx was selling 31 styles of Limited Too apparel at markdowns - 653,000 garments. TJ Maxx was stocking many more units than Too had ever ordered from its Asian suppliers, and what Too had ordered was still being sold in its own stores.

When Too sued TJ Maxx to stop sales, though, its lawyers candidly admitted that they weren't sure whether the clothes were counterfeits or third-shift goods. Though discounters can always be enjoined from selling counterfeits, some judges will let them sell third-shift goods unimpeded, viewing the latter as legally "genuine."

- Why brands don't do anything about them

Even in its wider sense, the third shift is a subset of a broader problem: the countless ways in which companies lose control of intellectual property when relying on an outsourced supply chain. IP leakage is the glitch in the ascendant paradigm for doing business.

"When you're outsourcing, you provide specifications, drawings, blueprints," says Peter Humphrey, who runs a risk-management firm in Shanghai called ChinaWhys. "What can easily happen is, someone takes it down the road to his brother or uncle," who also has a factory. "Before you know it, there's ten or 20 factories in that county making knockoffs of your product."

Brand owners typically don't admit to having suffered from third-shift or other IP-leakage problems. "It makes you seem like you've been an idiot," explains professor Chow. "These are people you've hired. You didn't exercise due diligence." Most brand owners approached for this story either declined to discuss the issue or denied experiencing the problem.

The rest of the article highlights how New Balance tried to stop one of its manufacturers from selling unauthorized (genuine) New Balance sneakers for 5 years and ended up losing the trial.



.

 

[ninjahood]

  someone here said it best, "idiots worried more about corporate politics then da actual product"

grey market jordans are starting to flood da market, you think da average person, hell even a seasoned customer cares

about who's extorting who at these factories which is enabling da unlimited run of these icy space jams?

****** ain't time for

that, and thats da response you gonna get from 99% for whoever you ask. they just want their sneakers, and if its made identical to da retail

pairs you think cats is blinkin a eye and giving a second about "hey wait a minute why aren't these showing signs of yellowing?"

  joints is hitting da pavement, and they when they yellow from being worn, or hell just sittin in da box and aging with time what ya gonna

so or say? they'll made with everything da retail pairs are made of, and NO ONE says yellowed XI's are coveted

more then a fresh icy pair.

which once again im going to bring up that ya have no answer for, once da soles yellow on grey market space jams, then what?

can't site da carbon fiber, can't site da patent leather cut, retail pairs all have different cuts, can't site da material, they're made wit

da same thing...time for ya to start getting used to da new reality thats upon us.

 

[jyung101]

Good review on things we know for people just tuning in that's a great read that can help ninjas argument. But that still doesn't prove wether the shoes that are of higher quality are replicas or actual unauthorized goods. When he can prove they are then we shall crown him king of the greys instead of flea market joe

 

[jyung101]

Ninja can you prove they are grey market??? Simple question. Do you have any thing backing these claims besides you think they look a like. I really want to understand where your coming from.

 

[ninjahood]

Good review on things we know for people just tuning in that's a great read that can help ninjas argument. But that still doesn't prove wether the shoes that are of higher quality are replicas or actual unauthorized goods. When he can prove they are then we shall crown him king of the greys instead of flea market joe

ask you self this question, when was da last time you seen ACTUAL carbon fiber used on a pair of fake sneakers...that should answer you're

own question.

 

[squatchnt]

On SJs with blue bottoms..,Lol if you don't think counterfeit makers don't improve their techniques you're not being honest.

 

[jyung101]

So because they stepped the game up on making replicas all of a sudden that makes them real?? No it makes them go from A to AAA as it goes in the replica/fraud/novelty game. Your still not providing us with factual evidence other then observations that are inconclusive and inadmissible to the rest of us. Simply put we don't believe your word. You think moissanites are diamonds and you think a billion dollar corporation is bootlegging shoes for a small grey market. It's not them its somebody else. It makes more sense. Prove me wrong but money wise it's not beneficial for them. You think about it. I mean really think about it.

 

[ninjahood]

On SJs with blue bottoms..,

whats gonna happen when they age just like other XI's....

even better, black and red XI's show zero signs of aging even years later...now what?

ya cats gonna come to da conclusion that da same people who are making these are also making da retail pairs..

there's no way around it.

 

[squatchnt]

whats gonna happen when they age just like other XI's....

even better, black and red XI's show zero signs of aging even years later...now what?

ya cats gonna come to da conclusion that da same people who are making these are also making da retail pairs..

there's no way around it.

You asked, I answered. I think it's just reasonable to think that factories making knock offs can improve techniques. I remember the Concord thread when factories had to change the clear toe caps. Those had real carbon fiber as well.

 

[Methodical Management]

ya cats gonna come to da conclusion that da same people who are making these are also making da retail pairs..

there's no way around it.

Is far as NikeTalk is concerned, that's irrelevant.  As long as the pairs are unauthorized and sold without Nike's consent, they represent a copyright/IP violation and are thus illegal.  

If you pirate movies, music, software, or broadcasts, the CONTENT is identical to the "authentic" product.  That doesn't make it acceptable.  

NikeTalk does not allow users to promote or facilitate criminal activity.  It's fine to discuss "grey market fakes" for the purpose of raising awareness.  

What I don't want to see - and what, frankly, I don't care about - is this conversation about whether unauthorized products are "close enough" for people to wear.  Whatever your opinion on "unauthorized products", they are illegal.  For that reason, users CAN NOT promote any of these "early release" sites dealing in unauthorized releases - whether they're made in the same exact factories as their authentic counterparts or not.  

And be aware - anyone who promotes "unauthorized products"/'early releases" or argues that it's "socially acceptable" to buy such products in any of the release threads in our sneaker forums will be warned and, if necessary, removed from the conversation.  Whether sneaker companies choose to go after violators or not, it is our policy to respect the law and we ask our fellow members to conduct themselves accordingly. 

 

[ninjahood]

So because they stepped the game up on making replicas all of a sudden that makes them real?? No it makes them go from A to AAA as it goes in the replica/fraud/novelty game. Your still not providing us with factual evidence other then observations that are inconclusive and inadmissible to the rest of us. Simply put we don't believe your word. You think moissanites are diamonds and you think a billion dollar corporation is bootlegging shoes for a small grey market. It's not them its somebody else. It makes more sense. Prove me wrong but money wise it's not beneficial for them. You think about it. I mean really think about it.

ya cats are so hardheaded its comical..

these ARENT FAKE SPACE JAMS... FAKE SPACE JAMS have PLASTIC shank plates

<<< thats fake space jam

grey market space jams.

and did i said moissanites are diamonds or is said SILICON CARBIDE shines 2x as hard as a diamond because of its properties

as a gemstone all its own? stop putting words in my mouth b.

accept da new reality b... grey markets are pairs that are being made WITHOUT PERMISSON, thats what makes em grey market,

NOT BECAUSE they're fake...da same people are making em duh.

 

[ninjahood]

this guy must be one of ya...completely lost and confused about whats going on

and he's leaning on da fact that they're not yellowed..duh, they were just made, they're grey markets..not da retail pairs from 2009.

what EVERYONE here is failing to mention is THEY WILL YELLOW.....then there's nothing to hang your hat on.

and these are just space jams....PLENTY of non clear soled jordans that dont age da way XI's do that are now being made via grey

market...da question is do you CARE about them being made without permisson or not, thats da real question.

 

[dankenstien88]

Heres my take on it... In the toy world and with most any manufactured good there are 3 categories of classification: Authentic, Bootleg and questionable origin.


Authentic's and bootlegs are pretty cut and dry. An authentic is just that... "authentic" by the definition of the word authentic products "have an origin supported by unquestionable evidence".

Bootlegs are completely unauthorized imitations of authentic products, usually reverse engineered and then manufactured in a separate facility than authentic products. Bootlegs are made with low production cost as the number one goal. These shoes are relatively easy to spot because they usually have noticeably poor quality (ie sloppy or absent paint, poor molding/casting, missed stitches)




Then we have "products of questionable origin" ie Grey Markets

These are the most intriguing to me because these products are undoubtedly made of the same materials and to the same degree of quality as an authentic product yet they are not sold through corporate retailers. While bootlegs are sloppy copys made in makeshift factories, "products of questionable origin" are manufactured directly from the same molds/casts in the same facility as an authentic product.

 

[dankenstien88]

whats gonna happen when they age just like other XI's....

even better, black and red XI's show zero signs of aging even years later...now what?

ya cats gonna come to da conclusion that da same people who are making these are also making da retail pairs..

there's no way around it.

You asked, I answered. I think it's just reasonable to think that factories making knock offs can improve techniques. I remember the Concord thread when factories had to change the clear toe caps. Those had real carbon fiber as well.

There were actually quite a few pairs of Authentic Concords we saw turn up on RD with clear toecaps further proving these are all coming from the same place.



Also... anyone remember when the DMP released in 06 how a bunch of early production run pairs that still had the "JORDAN" on the eyelits got mixed in with the retail pairs?

 

[deezrsackolishus]

Jus because a bootleg movie is the same quality as OG, dont make it authentic. Good point

 

[deezrsackolishus]

Jus because a bootleg movie is the same quality as OG, dont make it authentic. Good point

 

[ninjahood]

Jus because a bootleg movie is the same quality as OG, dont make it authentic. Good point

oh really?

da reason those "same quality" bootlegs exist is because da screener's copy

which is circulated to da media for review purposes WHICH IS LEGIT leaks..try again.

 

[ninjahood]

whats gonna happen when they age just like other XI's....

even better, black and red XI's show zero signs of aging even years later...now what?

ya cats gonna come to da conclusion that da same people who are making these are also making da retail pairs..

there's no way around it.

You asked, I answered. I think it's just reasonable to think that factories making knock offs can improve techniques. I remember the Concord thread when factories had to change the clear toe caps. Those had real carbon fiber as well.

There were actually quite a few pairs of Authentic Concords we saw turn up on RD with clear toecaps further proving these are all coming from the same place.



Also... anyone remember when the DMP released in 06 how a bunch of early production run pairs that still had the "JORDAN" on the eyelits got mixed in with the retail pairs?

those were early pairs that were eventually RTV'ed because da eyelet letters bled...not all da pairs were sent back...so if air randy

existed back then you can assume he would've had nuffin but DMP XI's with "Jordan" on da eyelets.

 

[dankenstien88]

Jus because a bootleg movie is the same quality as OG, dont make it authentic. Good point

oh really?

da reason those "same quality" bootlegs exist is because da screener's copy

which is circulated to da media for review purposes WHICH IS LEGIT leaks..try again.

This is what I think some people just dont get about grey markets.... ITS AN INSIDE JOB !!!


Products of questionable origin are extremely interesting to think about because the only people able to pull off such a feat would have to have very close connections inside the manufacturing facility. Really makes you think about what goes on behind the scenes

 

[ninjahood]

Jus because a bootleg movie is the same quality as OG, dont make it authentic. Good point

oh really?

da reason those "same quality" bootlegs exist is because da screener's copy

which is circulated to da media for review purposes WHICH IS LEGIT leaks..try again.

This is what I think some people just dont get about grey markets.... ITS AN INSIDE JOB !!!


Products of questionable origin are extremely interesting to think about because the only people able to pull off such a feat would have to have very close connections inside the manufacturing facility. Really makes you think about what goes on behind the scenes

omg..finally someone here with a brain....like i said before, da beef that exist is da ethics behind how these are being made

not da actualy product. da grey market products at hand are 100% identical to their retail counterparts, and they're being made unauthorized.

 

[deezrsackolishus]

oh really?

da reason those "same quality" bootlegs exist is because da screener's copy

which is circulated to da media for review purposes WHICH IS LEGIT leaks..try again.

Meth said it. Not me playa. Why aint u address him at all with his explanation?

 

[jyung101]

Man stop saying what you have no proof of!!!!,!,!, you have no evidence but the simple fact they look and function the same. I've said this over and over again if they can fake money credit cards iPhones laptops then they damn sure can fake a garment or pair of shoes. It's not a a defeat of measurable proportions. You just can seem to grasp the concept that these things just might be high quality fakes. Because in your mind there's no such thing. It doesn't exist within that peanut. Negro stop and go and do some research on other products aside from sneakers and find out that anything can be remade to look like its counterpart. Now why on earth would shoes be different?? Show us your proof instead of saying oh man they look just .ike the real deal except the bottoms are clear. That's not an educated hypothesis that's taking a stab in the dark and hoping it bleeds. Show us you keep avoiding the fact that you can't.