Kanye West: King of the Sunken Place, "Watch the Throne"

[tomdiginson]

Anti-cancel culture backlash in general tends to quickly reveal itself as hypocritical and unprincipled.

It ultimately boils down to, "I don't like your negative opinions about my negative opinions about you," promoting censorship of the censorious.
Look at Elon Musk threatening a "nuclear name and shame" of companies who reduce ad spending on Twitter, ongoing efforts to ban historically accurate textbooks, and conservatives passing anti-BDS laws. So much for the free market.

Then you have people claiming that there is some obligation to defend anything Ye or Kyrie says for the sake of "unity." Evidently, this same unconditional loyalty does not extend to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Malika Andrews, or Drake - so it appears that only selected outrage constitutes "selective outrage."

It's yet another reminder that the "free speech" crowd is primarily committed to the consequence-free assertion of their own favored biases - and nothing else.




This is what I find especially baffling about these sorts of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.

White Americans comprise nearly 40% of the US population - and many of them will be voting tomorrow to try and cement minority rule on this country for generations to come. White Christian Nationalists have engaged in an unceasing campaign of terrorist violence since the time of colonial settlement to maintain sociopolitical dominance.

Why, rather than focus on them, actively ally with this group in scapegoating the roughly 2% of the US population who identifies as Jewish - including those who are not White? It makes no sense.


We need to acknowledge the role of ethnic queuing and White skin privilege in bestowing relative privilege upon White Jewish people without denying or minimizing the persistence/perniciousness of anti-Semitism and its effects on Jewish people as a whole. Racism is bad because racism is bad; not because some tiny subgroup of White people also derives some benefit from it.

It is frustrating to encounter disparities and double standards - and these most frequently occur when people only care or care more about something that happens to a group with which they personally identify.
I cannot find any utility in "opposing" such hypocrisy by practicing it.

Those defending Kyrie and Ye right now are finding common cause with the very people who howled in protest when Disney was placing content warnings on its own racist movies or casting a Black woman as "The Little Mermaid."
If you expect them to repay the favor, you're in for a long wait.




In the context of the film/book, it tends to mean "I can't be anti-Semitic because the people I don't like aren't the real Semites,” which is a bit like the Jordan Peterson claiming that Michael Eric Dyson is “actually not black - he was sort of brown.”

By that standard, the Tree of Life synagogue shooting couldn't have been an anti-Semitic hate crime if the victims were White.


It's an especially odd belief to hold if you think that the whole of humanity originates from Adam and Eve.

This actually has less in common with Old Testament beliefs than with Enlightenment-era "scientific racism." I'm the furthest thing from a religious scholar, so I'll excerpt George Frederickson's Racism: A Short History:


"The theory of polygenesis, or multiple human origins, challenged the orthodox doctrine of a single creation and “one blood” for all of humanity and could be applied in an extremely racist fashion. If Adam and Eve were to be thought of as simply white rather than specifically Jewish, and if the pre-Adamites were considered black and inferior (somewhere between the descendants of Adam and the beasts of the field created earlier), Africans could be even more effectively dehumanized than through the invocation of the Hamitic curse. Such doctrines might find some oblique support in Scripture (whence, for example, came the people in the Land of Nod among whom Cain found a wife?), but they remained difficult to reconcile with the orthodox reading of the book of Genesis. The theory of polygenesis would thrive only when the power of biblical literalism declined.

The modern concept of races as basic human types classified by physical characteristics (primarily skin color) was not invented until the eighteenth century. The term for “race” in Western European languages did have relevant antecedent meanings associated with animal husbandry and aristocratic lineages.”

I'll respond later when I find some more time.

 

[tomdiginson]

Dbl

 

[AEA18]

 

[spiderjericho]

 

[gry60]

Nazlew asked if I was referring to Hasidic. I said not only them. White American Jews are not only Hasidic. I also let it be known that the racism is coming from those of European descent. I made certain to statet its not all, but enough of it comes from them where it is visibily noticeable. You can dance around it to down play their racist behavior by trying to mince words, but regardless of what you're going to say and quote, they definitely have their moments when they are racist towards the black man. Whether it be preying on them with predatory loans with hidden fine print to ultimately usurp prime property(as seen throughout NYC), discrimination when it comes to affordable housing(Was on the news where an entire community of them were in uproar because a massive affordable housing development was being built and they did not want any blacks or hispanics) , to physical violence inflicted upon them(theyve beaten several black and Hispanics under false pretenses) , and using racist in nature language towards them(as also seen on the news).

What I don't understand is how any of this justifies or validates the adherence to the belief that European Jews are fake Jews.

The religious doctrine that is used as evidence for that belief is simply not strong enough to warrant the importance that is placed on it, and there hasn't been a lot of physical and historical evidence to prove that belief.

Finally, when looking at historical instances (ancient and modern) where the logic of fighting xenophobia with xenophobia was followed, the outcome hasn't been favorable for anyone.

 

[jape]

From what I can tell, Kyrie for the most part just seems like a dumbass who's been browsing the conspiracy subreddit too muchp

 

[Brownstone]

Umar is right.

These are some "Yes Massa" dudes hes referring to.

SMH. Kyrie literally said he meant no harm and loves all people, but that wasn't enough for most people in this thread. He needs to be forced to be more apologetic but if its forced its not sincere so people will never be satisfied.

You know other players feel this whole thing is wrong but can't say a thing and yall know why.

LOL, yes massa because they have jobs?

 

[Present]

Sounds like a great opportunity to open a public dialogue amongst accountable religious scholars on both sides of the issue.

What's the harm in a civilized discussion amongst truth seekers / experts in the field to settle this narrative once and for all?

"Race" didn't exist back then...but that certainly didn't stop this from happening:

The curse of Ham is described in the Book of Genesis as imposed by the patriarch Noah upon Ham's son Canaan. It occurs in the context of Noah's drunkenness and is provoked by a shameful act perpetrated by Noah's son Ham, who "saw the nakedness of his father".[1] The exact nature of Ham's transgression and the reason Noah cursed Canaan when Ham had sinned have been debated for over 2,000 years.[2]

The story's original purpose may have been to justify the biblical subjection of the Canaanites to the Israelites,[3] but in later centuries, the narrative was interpreted by some Christians, Muslims and Jews as an explanation for black skin, as well as a justification for slavery of black people.[4] Similarly, the Latter Day Saint movement used the curse of Ham to prevent the ordination of black men to its priesthood.[5][6]

Nevertheless, most Christians, Muslims, and Jews now (allegedly) disagree with such interpretations, because in the biblical text, Ham himself is not cursed, and race or skin color is never mentioned.[7]

Seems to me there's a discussion to be had.

If simply opening the dialogue is labeled as "anti-Semitic" then the folks doing the labelling definitely have an agenda.

After all, how is it cool if this "debate" about Black people has been going on for 2000 years w/o a single Black person at the table?

Certainly we have more qualified voices than Irving and West to speak on behalf of the "cursed".

Anyway, the whole thing makes my head hurt - just more reason why folks are leaving religion / church behind at record rates these days.

 

[tomdiginson]

What I don't understand is how any of this justifies or validates the adherence to the belief that European Jews are fake Jews.

The religious doctrine that is used as evidence for that belief is simply not strong enough to warrant the importance that is placed on it, and there hasn't been a lot of physical and historical evidence to prove that belief.

Finally, when looking at historical instances (ancient and modern) where the logic of fighting xenophobia with xenophobia was followed, the outcome hasn't been favorable for anyone.

Either you don’t understand or you’re intentionally misrepresenting what I’m saying. I went back and reread what I posted to see If maybe I wasn’t clear, but that isn’t the case and you’re clearly imposing you’re own beliefs. White people have a tendency of claiming heritage that isn’t theirs to curry favor economically and to advance in society in whatever route they’ve selected. I listed examples who used varying ethnic backgrounds to do so. Based off the evidence provided is it not possible for many to be claiming to be “Jewish”, but really aren’t and only use said title for socio economical advancement. We’ve established that for such a small population of people, Jewish people do quite well financially for themselves and are in positions of power to impact change that benefits their people. It isn’t farfetched that there are people who have blended in to potentially receive some of these “perks” when in reality they’re not Jewish whether by ancestry, nor religious faith. The only thing they share with the legit European descendant Jew is pale skin and being of European descent.

 

[Gex the Damaja]

I did not look into the specifics of the Irving situation and the movie he posted so I can't speak on that.

What I will speak on the is conditions to return to the Nets. I agree with all conditions except for the forced donation. I don't get why there needs to be a forced monetary attachment to his return to work.

 

[Present]

I did not look into the specifics of the Irving situation and the movie he posted so I can't speak on that.

What I will speak on the is conditions to return to the Nets. I agree with all conditions except for the forced donation. I don't get why there needs to be a forced monetary attachment to his return to work.

Good point.

Had to look it up...

If they are considering it a "fine" then he has no say in where the money ends up:

The fine money of NBA players isn't donated to charities directly, according to NBA collective bargaining agreement,[9] The NBA and National Basketball Players Association (NBPA) first equally split fines that collected from players, with half the fine going to the Players' Association and the league retaining the other half. Each then donates its portion to a group of charities of its choice.

Previous notable fine:

Vladimir Radmanovic was fined $500,000 in 2007, one of the largest fines by levied by an NBA team on a player. He was fined after injuring his shoulder while snowboarding, violating his contract for participating in an activity that posed a significant risk

 

[spiderjericho]

 

[edshoecator]

Why hasn’t fox suspended and fined Bradshaw for making light of suicide?

 

[gry60]

White people have a tendency of claiming heritage that isn’t theirs to curry favor economically and to advance in society in whatever route they’ve selected. I listed examples who used varying ethnic backgrounds to do so. Based off the evidence provided is it not possible for many to be claiming to be “Jewish”, but really aren’t and only use said title for socio economical advancement.

Two things:
- this is not limited to white people (we know some non-white folks who claim some sort of mixing for similar reasons); it's very much a universal thing to claim a background that one or may not belong to to improve the way they are perceived. A buddy of mine was so ashamed of having grown up in Cameroon that he pretended to be French by birth in college.

- the only evidence presented so far has been a biblical excerpt from Revelations. While the two examples you've given are valid, they do not constitute definitive data about white people who claim a background they don't actually belong to.

Also, are you saying that merely claiming to have a Jewish heritage gives you easier access to financial opportunities?

Apparently, the Bambara, Fulani, igbo, Yoruba, Mandinka, Sawa, Ewondo, etc... didn't get the memo about being Hebrew.

How did all these people go from Judaism to spirit worship long before the introduction of Islam and Christianity? Even in the Old Testament, Israelites were already monotheistic (and there even more questions if we want to entertain the biblical "evidence"), but their long lost descendants were not?

 

[tomdiginson]

Two things:
- this is not limited to white people (we know some non-white folks who claim some sort of mixing for similar reasons); it's very much a universal thing to claim a background that one or may not belong to to improve the way they are perceived. A buddy of mine was so ashamed of having grown up in Cameroon that he pretended to be French by birth in college.

- the only evidence presented so far has been a biblical excerpt from Revelations. While the two examples you've given are valid, they do not constitute definitive data about white people who claim a background they don't actually belong to.

Also, are you saying that merely claiming to have a Jewish heritage gives you easier access to financial opportunities?

Play COY as if you don't understand. We're not talking about people lying to appear more attractive to their peers, I'm talking about people lying to take advantage of socio economic programs that are set aside for minority populations due to systematic racism. You're using your friend lying about being from France causes he's ashamed of being Congolese as a comparison when it’s two different things.

 

[gry60]

Play COY as if you don't understand. We're not talking about people lying to appear more attractive to their peers, I'm talking about people lying to take advantage of socio economic programs that are set aside for minority populations due to systematic racism. You're using your friend lying about being from France causes he's ashamed of being Congolese as a comparison when it’s two different things.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretendian

See how the list includes people from every background impersonating - mostly - Native Americans for financial gain? And in case this gets lost, I'm not condoning the behavior, I'm just saying that it isn't isolated to a particular group of people.

Now, you're the one saying white people impersonating Jews is widespread. All I'm asking for is concrete proof.

 

[Zainjal26]

Should give it to Dr umar instead

 

[tomdiginson]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretendian

See how the list includes people from every background impersonating - mostly - Native Americans for financial gain? And in case this gets lost, I'm not condoning the behavior, I'm just saying that it isn't isolated to a particular group of people.

Now, you're the one saying white people impersonating Jews is widespread. All I'm asking for is concrete proof.

I provided evidence that I've seen personally a few pages back.

 

[freeze]

****ing loser

 

[noblekane]

****ing loser

no freeze you must stand with him no matter what he do

 

[snkrfollower]

 

[ilike turtles]

the internet really warped folks' minds. we're doomed

 

[DCAllAfrican]

 

[Zainjal26]

I think this thread title should change from the Kanye thread to the kyrie thread

 

[DripNick]

Better yet, the "The impressionable ****** copping pleas for multimillionaire bozos thread "