Killer Mike vs Noname (Capitalism Debate)

[Brownstone]

Its a brilliant strategy though and on par with everything that's ever happened in this country. Making it a national security issue is really the only way both sides agree on anything now adays.

When something as controversial as infrastructure can't be agreed upon its really dark times

 

[Brownstone]

Ive lived in countries with much higher taxation, universal healthcare, access to good and free education, free to inexpensive college, etc, etc..

this isn’t it. Sure those societies weren’t perfect, but as someone said, every aspect of our lives are subject to the market/economy. No one bats an eye until the rich can’t stuff their pockets.
Talking to brothers and sisters in Africa, UK, across Europe, we all have our plights, but no one can make sense of why the US, ‘greatest, richest’ country on earth can’t get it right.

Were these countries 3K miles wide with nearly 350M people from diverse backgrounds? No? Ok, stop.

Democrats are right to say we can have more rights and entitlements that come from our taxes. Republicans are also right to say that the U.S. is singular and what works in other nations are not transferrable. IF both sides acknowledge these facts we'd have a lot more productive debates.

 

[wr]

Its a brilliant strategy though and on par with everything that's ever happened in this country. Making it a national security issue is really the only way both sides agree on anything now adays.

When something as controversial as infrastructure can't be agreed upon its really dark times

https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021-03-03/society-of-civil-engineers-gives-us-infrastructure-mediocre-c-minus-grade

USA got a D- on infrastructure in 2017 and a C- in 2021.
Falling to #13 globally.
With other Asian countries much higher on the list, "American Exceptionalism" is a much harder sell in the current global climate.

Rotting infrastructure.
Food deserts.
Minimum wage should be around $40/hr if kept up with wall st compensations.
Random violence everywhere.
Civil Rights and reparations still an issue centuries later.
Capital buildings stormed on live TV.
America has turned into a reality TV show for the rest of the world to watch.

 

[marikomorose]

This is why I feel like USA is a sad sack of trash right now.

Only to combat the economic rise of China does America see fit to rebuild the economy from the "bottom up and the middle out".

Biden: Time to Rebuild From Bottom Up, Middle Out

Mar.31 -- President Joe Biden outlines his administration's infrastructure plan that is focused on aiding U.S. manufacturing, creating jobs, and addressing inequality. “It’s time to build our economy from the middle out,” Biden said, saying his plan “rewards work, not just wealth."

finance.yahoo.com

Why does media keep perpetuating the "both sides" narrative? The figure clearly showed 2 in 10 republicans, 3 in 10 independents, and 7 out of 10 democrates supporting Biden's plan. Like how is this a "both sides" thing.

As much as ppl want to get on politicians the media makes **** so much more convoluted & normalizing **** like Trump's fascist presidency. Man came in the game banning Muslims but no one tv called "fascist". Like no one. What is their point? Why do they exist if they aren't going to do their jobs right. "Both sides" is why Brian Kemp's signed that racist *** bill behind closed doors, and no one on tv is saying what that bill is about. The most they're doing is suggesting what it could be. They ****ing suck.

 

[wr]

Product of news falling under the entertainment category instead of being a public utility/disclosure.

We had 4 years of non stop Trump and barely any other news from networks on both sides. Trumps tweets were so newsworthy that we could put the rotting infrastructure on the back burner.

 

[gry60]

Do you mind explaining at what point is the line crossed from EA to capitalism?

I have always struggled with distinguishing between the two.

Think about bartering: you, a cattle herder, needs some rice from your neighbor who grows it. You meet him, convince him to give you x amount of rice for y cows. That's economic activity.

Capitalism would refer to who owns the cattle and who owns the rice (and/or the means to produce the rice/cattle): in a capitalist system, both the farmer and the herder would own rice and cattle; in any other system, they may or may not own either.

 

[gry60]

Were these countries 3K miles wide with nearly 350M people from diverse backgrounds? No? Ok, stop.

That's a very weak argument, especially if you look at how early a country like Germany, born out of the recent (by historical standards) unification of many fiefdoms and kingdoms, implemented a social safety net.

This idea that socialism works in Europe because they are culturally/demographically homogeneous within their borders is a myth that is easily disproven by looking at their history in the last two centuries: France fought separatist movements in Corsica and the Basque region, the Spanish have their own thing going with Catalonia, the British fought against Irish nationalists, the Balkans only stabilized after the breakup of Yougoslavia, Belgium and Switzerland are multilingual, multicultural countries, and the one thing all these people don't question much is whether their respective governments should have a role in ensuring that there is a robust social safety net for all their citizens. What they tend to argue about politically is the meaning of "robust."

 

[wr]

That's a very weak argument, especially if you look at how early a country like Germany, born out of the recent (by historical standards) unification of many fiefdoms and kingdoms, implemented a social safety net.

This idea that socialism works in Europe because they are culturally/demographically homogeneous within their borders is a myth that is easily disproven by looking at their history in the last two centuries: France fought separatist movements in Corsica and the Basque region, the Spanish have their own thing going with Catalonia, the British fought against Irish nationalists, the Balkans only stabilized after the breakup of Yougoslavia, Belgium and Switzerland are multilingual, multicultural countries, and the one thing all these people don't question much is whether their respective governments should have a role in ensuring that there is a robust social safety net for all their citizens. What they tend to argue about politically is the meaning of "robust."

Europe unified behind expulsion of ....."other people's" and the economy created out of "discovering and christianizing" the "savages" and the modern day trading ports that the confused enslaved have latched on to as a cultural identity.

I.e. Puerto Rican = Rich Port for the conquistadors and traders.
Dominican = property of Dominican order.
West Indies is just a crown company just like the East Indies ( tea companies, trading companies etc.)
All these romanticized romanic legacy titles of corporate interest of colonist. That's is a foundational part of how lost people are when it comes to identity.

 

[Brownstone]

That's a very weak argument, especially if you look at how early a country like Germany, born out of the recent (by historical standards) unification of many fiefdoms and kingdoms, implemented a social safety net.

This idea that socialism works in Europe because they are culturally/demographically homogeneous within their borders is a myth that is easily disproven by looking at their history in the last two centuries: France fought separatist movements in Corsica and the Basque region, the Spanish have their own thing going with Catalonia, the British fought against Irish nationalists, the Balkans only stabilized after the breakup of Yougoslavia, Belgium and Switzerland are multilingual, multicultural countries, and the one thing all these people don't question much is whether their respective governments should have a role in ensuring that there is a robust social safety net for all their citizens. What they tend to argue about politically is the meaning of "robust."

Germany has a population that is 1/4th of ours and is 1/30th our size. It's a good example for various reasons though, and if I lived anywhere else it would be there. Also my airbnb tour guide (with no debt and two masters degrees) was dying to come to the U.S. btw (to live due to her masters degrees being useless since everyone has them)

Also most importantly, Germany is not socialist.

 

[tomdiginson]

Europe unified behind expulsion of ....."other people's" and the economy created out of "discovering and christianizing" the "savages" and the modern day trading ports that the confused enslaved have latched on to as a cultural identity.

I.e. Puerto Rican = Rich Port for the conquistadors and traders.
Dominican = property of Dominican order.
West Indies is just a crown company just like the East Indies ( tea companies, trading companies etc.)
All these romanticized romanic legacy titles of corporate interest of colonist. That's is a foundational part of how lost people are when it comes to identity.

Technically speaking, the West Indies was named a region long before the West Indian company existed. Columbus named the region when he thought he was West of India when he first arrived in the Caribbean hundreds of years prior. They just took the moniker of "West" indies" since that was the region/area that they would be controlling. But you're spot on.

 

[gry60]

Europe unified behind expulsion of ....."other people's" and the economy created out of "discovering and christianizing" the "savages" and the modern day trading ports that the confused enslaved have latched on to as a cultural identity.

I.e. Puerto Rican = Rich Port for the conquistadors and traders.
Dominican = property of Dominican order.
West Indies is just a crown company just like the East Indies ( tea companies, trading companies etc.)
All these romanticized romanic legacy titles of corporate interest of colonist. That's is a foundational part of how lost people are when it comes to identity.

I am not talking about foreign trade.

I'm talking about the internal demographic makeup of some of those countries and how that has little bearing on the internal economic policies those societies chose to follow.

And Europe was never that united, even during imperialist times. They competed for territories to fund 18th/19th century European conflicts that culminated in WWI and WWII. The EU is really the first manifestation of a continental unity, and we can see how shaky that unity has proven to be, considering how much the anti-Polish sentiment drove Brexit. In fact, it was so high that 200k Poles left the UK in the last three years.

 

[wr]

I am not talking about foreign trade.

I'm talking about the internal demographic makeup of some of those countries and how that has little bearing on the internal economic policies those societies chose to follow.

And Europe was never that united, even during imperialist times. They competed for territories to fund 18th/19th century European conflicts that culminated in WWI and WWII. The EU is really the first manifestation of a continental unity, and we can see how shaky that unity has proven to be, considering how much the anti-Polish sentiment drove Brexit. In fact, it was so high that 200k Poles left the UK in the last three years.

Lots of in fighting and tribal war in Europe(See Game of Thrones which is loosely based off of fuedal European history". But they can always put their differences aside under the blanket idea of "whiteness" and attack the whole globe that resides on the "darker parallels".

 

[sreggie101]

The word socialism has been so warped by the repugnican party that I'm not sure where I stand anymore. I support a majority of "socialist" programs in this county and I am pro universal healthcare. But I also support capitalism as a concept.

Nothing wrong with that. I am in the same mindset, but with no shame to confusion about it. Maintain that energy my g.

I've said this in other threads too, it is one thing to be rich. It is another thing to be rich which ignoring the financial struggle of those below you who work every day to ultimately maintain your machine that generates your wealth.

So you can be a bezos and struggle with low employee satisfaction, poor working conditions, and low pay...but still bring in the billions because amazon does what it does very well (was, e-commerce)

or you can be a dan price, guarantee great starting salaries for every and all employees, maybe at a paycut to you (CEO) but still be "rich" but see high employee satisfaction, productivity and company growth (as well as financial resilience against the pandemic, with no layoffs).

I don't have a problem with people being rich. But not helping others eat particularly when they work for you is morally reprehensible. But the system of our capitalism dictates that people like bezos has the greatest impact in how people can afford their lives.

This country is sick with capitalism, where we normalize, inequity in terms of salary, PTO, parental leave, hours worked on a given week...etc.

You should work to live, not live to work.


the right wing has greatly twisted the "socialism" narrative to equate it to a pure socialist state where everyone works for the good of the state, from economics to w.e. No1 has been asking for that. Bernie has never been preaching that. Someone check me if I'm wrong.

This is where people become fiscal conservatives because they pay taxes with little belief that the money goes right back to them. So they'd rather not pay in the first place. That is a byproduct of a heavily capitalistic society. Because if people didn't have to pay for benefits that directly impacted them and they experienced those positive impacts daily, so to speak, they wouldn't care about high taxes. Because your quality of life is high.

You can't have something against socialism, but be ignorant to your participation/consumption in the "socialist" aspects of our society (public services, education, social security, medicare/caid).

Got a problem with "socialism" keep that same energy when you looking for that stimmy or unemployment check.

Pensions are the same ****. Health insurance even, albeit it is really about making $, is socialistic in concept.

Man, you know where you stand on all dat. Just gotta call out the people who got it twisted and gaslight you into thinking you got it twisted. You not trying to live in a castro type regime, but you want your taxes to work more for you.


and for the record, the US is hypocritical in its treatment of Cuba because lord knows we get in bed with nations with similar nations operating on similar socio-economic govt's.

 

[wr]

 

[wr]

Technically speaking, the West Indies was named a region long before the West Indian company existed. Columbus named the region when he thought he was West of India when he first arrived in the Caribbean hundreds of years prior. They just took the moniker of "West" indies" since that was the region/area that they would be controlling. But you're spot on.

The Dutch West India Company (Dutch: Geoctrooieerde Westindische Compagnie, or GWC; Dutch pronunciation: [ɣəʔɔktroːˈjeːrdə ʋɛstˈɪndisə kɔmpɑˈɲi]; English: Chartered West India Company) was a chartered company of Dutch merchants as well as foreign investors. Among its founders was Willem Usselincx (1567–1647) and Jessé de Forest (1576–1624).[1] On 3 June 1621, it was granted a charter for a trade monopoly in the Dutch West Indies by the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands and given jurisdiction over Dutch participation in the Atlantic slave trade, Brazil, the Caribbean, and North America. The area where the company could operate consisted of West Africa (between the Tropic of Cancer and the Cape of Good Hope) and the Americas, which included the Pacific Ocean and the eastern part of New Guinea. The intended purpose of the charter was to eliminate competition, particularly Spanish or Portuguese, between the various trading posts established by the merchants. The company became instrumental in the largely ephemeral Dutch colonization of the Americas (including New Netherland) in the seventeenth century. From 1624 to 1654, in the context of the Dutch-Portuguese War, the GWC held Portuguese territory in northeast Brazil, but they were ousted from Dutch Brazil following fierce resistance.[2]

Dutch West India Company - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Royal African Company - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_West_India_Companyhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_West_India_Company

 

[tomdiginson]

The Dutch West India Company (Dutch: Geoctrooieerde Westindische Compagnie, or GWC; Dutch pronunciation: [ɣəʔɔktroːˈjeːrdə ʋɛstˈɪndisə kɔmpɑˈɲi]; English: Chartered West India Company) was a chartered company of Dutch merchants as well as foreign investors. Among its founders was Willem Usselincx (1567–1647) and Jessé de Forest (1576–1624).[1] On 3 June 1621, it was granted a charter for a trade monopoly in the Dutch West Indies by the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands and given jurisdiction over Dutch participation in the Atlantic slave trade, Brazil, the Caribbean, and North America. The area where the company could operate consisted of West Africa (between the Tropic of Cancer and the Cape of Good Hope) and the Americas, which included the Pacific Ocean and the eastern part of New Guinea. The intended purpose of the charter was to eliminate competition, particularly Spanish or Portuguese, between the various trading posts established by the merchants. The company became instrumental in the largely ephemeral Dutch colonization of the Americas (including New Netherland) in the seventeenth century. From 1624 to 1654, in the context of the Dutch-Portuguese War, the GWC held Portuguese territory in northeast Brazil, but they were ousted from Dutch Brazil following fierce resistance.[2]

Dutch West India Company - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Royal African Company - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_West_India_Companyhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_West_India_Company

Yep. The West Indian company was founded in 1621. Columbus stumbled upon the Caribbean in 1492. This is when he also named it the "West Indies" when he thought he was just off of the west of india.

 

[wr]

Yep. The West Indian company was founded in 1621. Columbus stumbled upon the Caribbean in 1492. This is when he also named it the "West Indies" when he thought he was just off of the west of india.

Word.

But what is more left out of this era is the expulsion of the islamic kingdoms out of Europe and the Americas. Pre-Colonial Spanish American Conquest, the Inquisition, Crusades happened in both hemispheres. The reason all the people keep finding ties between Indian and African tribes was because there was global trade happening for 1000s of years while Islamic empires pillaged European city states before they unified coming from the direction of India. The Inquisition christianized and de facto enslaved large swaths of non european peoples world wide.

This is the beginning or capitalism and corporate structure we have today. At it's core built of system racism and white supremacy. It originated from decrees from the church and the monarchy of Fuedal Europe. White supremacy was retaliation on all it's neighboring empires. Not as simple as what they try to present. No European created the idea of trade when people where living, breathing, eating and reproducing in the global economy for so long before their version of white history.

Notice the multiculturalism of the "Persians" in 300.

 

[frshstunna]

This isn't capitalism. It's crony corporate meritocracy/socialism for those at the top and myth of rugged individualism at the bottom.
Free markets.
Controlled capitalism.
Poor to busy debating labels while the rich pick their pockets generation after generation.

Yup it’s only really “capitalism” in the USA if you one of the few in the owner class at the top....And even then those folks have no problem asking for and accepting bail outs and put things in place that prevent others from taking their spot instead of letting the markets work like what capitalism is supposed to be

Pure socialism would end up being a mess as well cuz no way would resources be allocated fairly due to racial differences...The lil bit of social safety nets/programs we do have now is already proof it’s not equal for everyone...There is a class of ppl that routinely vote and support things against their self interests because they don’t want other groups to benefit as well

 

[tomdiginson]

Yup it’s only really “capitalism” in the USA if you one of the few in the owner class at the top....And even then those folks have no problem asking for an accepting bail outs and put things in place that prevent others from taking their spot instead of letting the markets work like what capitalism is supposed to be

Pure socialism would end up being a mess as well cuz no way would resources be allocated fairly due to racial differences...The lil bit of social safety nets/programs we do have now is already proof it’s not equal for everyone

Which we've seen demonstrated a few weeks ago during the WSB vs hedge funds. Trading platforms began doing all kinds of unscrupulous behavior in order to keep the rich protected.

 

[wr]

Which we've seen demonstrated a few weeks ago during the WSB vs hedge funds. Trading platforms began doing all kinds of unscrupulous behavior in order to keep the rich protected.

This right here should've made it clear as a bell to everyone. They will change the rules overnight to protect themselves while poor peoples issues get turned into "movements" "hashtags" and "controlled debates" that create a show and an economy for hustlers, media, law enforcement. Crony Capitalism is tuned to perfection.

 

[blastercombo]

You guys complain about having to pay for basic healthcare..... I call that.... freedom

 

[sreggie101]

lets talk about US corporations and how much they paid in federal income tax...

then lets talk about how much u payin lol

the rules were written by the people at the top for the people at the top

stay woke

 

[wr]

lets talk about US corporations and how much they paid in federal income tax...

then lets talk about how much u payin lol

the rules were written by the people at the top for the people at the top

stay woke

How quickly they media brushed away the panama and paradise papers and gave us a whole nother PPP to stay focused on.

 

[marikomorose]

lets talk about US corporations and how much they paid in federal income tax...

then lets talk about how much u payin lol

the rules were written by the people at the top for the people at the top

stay woke

Bezos is so loaded b/c of what he doesn't pay.

 

[getback]