***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[osh kosh bosh]

unfortunately you need the vote of a racist in order to save the republic.

thems the breaks


I don't understand what Chuck Shumer is doing.

He seems more concerned with fending off a primary challenge than actually reforming the filibuster and enacting voter reforms.

 

[the natural mystic]

Asking billionaires to bribe a retiring GOP Senator to help him undermine his own party.

**** this piece of ****

 

[RustyShackleford]

unfortunately you need the vote of a racist in order to save the republic.

thems the breaks


I don't understand what Chuck Shumer is doing.

He seems more concerned with fending off a primary challenge than actually reforming the filibuster and enacting voter reforms.

All you are doing is ****ing putting a cape on for Joeyyyyyy Manchinnnnnnnnn

Your boy is also saying he will not vote for dropping the filibuster. Did you even read the article you posted before you came up with the Dems are playing this wrong take?...

Manchin also said Wednesday that he has not changed his views against eliminating the filibuster, the 60-vote supermajority requirement for most Senate bills, meaning the bill would have to garner some GOP support to be viable

And I would like to point out not a single Democrat called him a racist.

 

[RustyShackleford]

The thing about Manchin is that I finding him completely full of **** because he does things to contradict given the glimpses of hope he gives

He saying he is opening to making 41 people hold the filibuster but instead of telling Schummer to do that on the Jan 6th commission, he is backroom dealing with donors to undermine his own party.

He says he open to some reform in the For the People Act but instead of negotiating amendments, he writes this asinine word salad of an ope-ed

Why the **** should I believe someone is acting in good faith when they continuous act in bad faith

 

[dwalk31]

hindsight is 20/20 but prob should have started with this instead of the

pass HR1 and call joe manchin a racist until he votes for it strategy

There is always a bit of backlash, in here, when there is any suggestion that more than the GOP contribute to voter suppression.

As I’ve said many times, I am against voter suppression—no matter who is doing it.

Are Democratic Senator Joe Manchin’s demands for mandated Voter ID and his opposition to universal mail-in voting considered voter suppression in here? Or is it different when he demands it?

 

[RustyShackleford]

There is always a bit of backlash, in here, when there is any suggestion that more than the GOP contribute to voter suppression.

As I’ve said many times, I am against voter suppression—no matter who is doing it.

Are Democratic Senator Joe Manchin’s demands for mandated Voter ID and his opposition to universal mail-in voting considered voter suppression in here? Or is it different when he demands it?

Are you even reading this thread right now, you pathetic troll?

 

[$tatus $ymbol]

It is infinitely clear that you cannot support the GOP and its candidates then claim you are against voter suppression. Remember that one terrorist attack on the nations capitol when a bunch of GOP extremists contested valid election results at the command of the seditious ex-president that Dwalk happened to vote for TWICE? Miss us with all that.

 

[dwalk31]

It is infinitely clear that you cannot support the GOP and its candidates then claim you are against voter suppression. Remember that one terrorist attack on the nations capitol when a bunch of GOP extremists contested valid election results at the command of the seditious ex-president that Dwalk happened to vote for TWICE? Miss us with all that.

I stopped supporting former-President Trump prior to the capitol attack in January. I made it clear that I no longer supported him in early November of 2020.

I currently support President Biden and VP Harris and I plan to support them if they run again in 2024.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

All you are doing is ****ing putting a cape on for Joeyyyyyy Manchinnnnnnnnn

Your boy is also saying he will not vote for dropping the filibuster. Did you even read the article you posted before you came up with the Dems are playing this wrong take?...



And I would like to point out not a single Democrat called him a racist.

yah i know, Im saying you gotta try and persuade him.
im not saying it will work. he seems to really believe this silliness about the filibuster, but you got actually try at least.

and imo that means going through the song and dance of working with republicans and trying to find a grand bargain, like national Voter ID in exchange for ending partisan gerrymandering and convincing joe it's pointless.

but holding a vote on HR1, a bill that doesn't even pretend to hint at bipartisanship and crossing your arms, and acting shocked when Manchin says no is pretty sub optimal.



the racist line is a joke, yes no elected official is calling joe manchin a racist explicitly.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

There is always a bit of backlash, in here, when there is any suggestion that more than the GOP contribute to voter suppression.

As I’ve said many times, I am against voter suppression—no matter who is doing it.

Are Democratic Senator Joe Manchin’s demands for mandated Voter ID and his opposition to universal mail-in voting considered voter suppression in here? Or is it different when he demands it?

the weeds had a podcast with a white paper analyzing the effect of various voter suppression tactics like voter id.

it seems to have a very very small impact on democrats performance and the majority of americans support it in polls.

so seems to me, making a trade for voter ID for ending partisan gerrymandering is the best way to show Joe working with the GOP is pointless.

 

[Based Jesus]

hindsight is 20/20 but prob should have started with this instead of the

pass HR1 and call joe manchin a racist until he votes for it strategy

Even if Repubs would vote for this (they won't), it's not a win for Democrats

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Even if Repubs would vote for this (they won't), it's not a win for Democrats

it's not about republicans it's about convincing Joe Manchin.

what do we know about Manchin

- Joe seems to really sincerely believe the filibuster is good.
- and is pathologically obsessed with deal making / bipartisanship.


seems to me you should write a bill aimed at convincing him, instead of Democratic party wishlist.

Maybe it won't work, I dunno, but it seems to me like you should try.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Seems pretty good to me.
Now just gotta disabuse him of this "filibuster is good" insanity.

 

[rexanglorum]

One of the factors with Manchin and his intransigence is the fact that a President and Senate Majority leader have almost no options to create State-specific programs, benefits and exemptions to bring a few wavering and straggling Senators on board.

Many people, myself included, have been hoping against hope that Biden will become Lyndon Johnson and be this later in life politician who takes a leftward turn, leverages his personal and professional relationship in the Senate and drastically expands both the social safety net and civil rights. Putting aside just how committed Biden, himself, is to that vision, it’s somewhat of a moot point.

Biden can’t make deals like Johnson did because we’ve had 50 years of supposed transparency and anti-corruption reforms in Congress. It started with the “watergate babies,” up and coming, young professional class Democrats who were harbingers of the neoliberal turn, associating the New Deal coalition with its negative aspects and none of its positive aspects. To these young, highly educated go-getters, the fact that national politics was hashed out in smoke filled rooms full of party bosses (many of whom had not gone to college, heaven forbid) was seen as the source of racism and forever war and if only Congress worked out in the open, things would be better.

Well, that’s not how it went. They did bring about transparency and they ended the New Deal coalition and the legacy of that was to end or to rollback to all the good New Deal policies like unions, expanding the social welfare State, infrastructure spending, low cost college civil rights, voting rights, affirmative action and bussing. But, the forever wars and racism survived and are thriving.

After the Water Gate Babies did their thing, bipartisan attacks on transactional politics continued and culminated with the Tea Party’s ban on earmarks. The neoliberal project of turning elected representatives from deal making politicians, who could respond to constituent pressures from below, into donor class delegates has largely succeeded.

Now all hope isn't lost Biden and Schumer have some ways of playing hardball but the idea that Biden and Schumer could take care of West Virginia in exchange for ending the filibuster and passing HR1 is a fantasy at this point. It was designed for a situation like one we are in now because capital hates politics. Capital wants government that serves seamless investment, extraction and logistical networks and nothing more. Politics, including an attempt to preserve liberal Democracy is bad for business.

 

[RustyShackleford]

yah i know, Im saying you gotta try and persuade him.
im not saying it will work. he seems to really believe this silliness about the filibuster, but you got actually try at least.

and imo that means going through the song and dance of working with republicans and trying to find a grand bargain, like national Voter ID in exchange for ending partisan gerrymandering and convincing joe it's pointless.

but holding a vote on HR1, a bill that doesn't even pretend to hint at bipartisanship and crossing your arms, and acting shocked when Manchin says no is pretty sub optimal.



the racist line is a joke, yes no elected official is calling joe manchin a racist explicitly.

You still have your cape on Joe Manchin

Your take is based on the assumption Manchin is a good actor with a bad position, and that only if he sees the GOP's ****ery exposed he might change his mind

Let us run down some elements concerning convincing Manchin reactions to the GOP refusing to compromise with the Dems:

-Joe Manchin just saw Republican he swore would support the Jan 6th commission vote against it. Now he is on the phone trying to get people to buy off a retiring GOP Senator in hopes of robbing progressive of an obvious "we told you so" talking point

-Joe Manchin said he would support up to 4 trillion in infrastructure spending. Biden came in around 3. Biden negotiated for months with the other WV Senator and her best offer was......negative 700 billion. Mainly using Covid money to fund old school infrastructure projects. Manchin to this day won't agree to using reconciliation to pass something.

-Mitch McConnell and GOP leadership are openly saying their aim to sabotage Biden at every step

Regarding this. So it is the Dems fault for trying to pass a a bill in the House that Manchin didn't like? Because that is all they did. The Senate bill is still in committee, he would have told his caucus he doesn't like this or that negotiated with leadership like a regular ****ing adult. Instead, he writes an OP-ED claiming he won't stop partisan power grabs unless it is in a bipartisan fashion.

-Furthermore, how the **** would the House Dems know Joe Manchin would come out against a bill he... check notes....****ing co-sponsored in 2019?

You seem so preoccupied with these "Dems played it wrong take by listening to progressives" takes. That you ignore Manchin's relationship with his caucus is basically...

 

[IATT]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

You still have your cape on Joe Manchin

Your take is based on the assumption Manchin is a good actor with a bad position, and that only if he sees the GOP's ****ery exposed he might change his mind

Let us run down some elements concerning convincing Manchin reactions to the GOP refusing to compromise with the Dems:

-Joe Manchin just saw Republican he swore would support the Jan 6th commission vote against it. Now he is on the phone trying to get people to buy off a retiring GOP Senator in hopes of robbing progressive of an obvious "we told you so" talking point

Yah I think he's good faith in the sense that he really thinks the filibuster is good, and that it encourages bipartisanship which is a good unto itself.

So trying to save the filibuster by getting republicans to vote for jan 6 makes total sense to me.

he's just catraphically wrong about the filibuster.

-Joe Manchin said he would support up to 4 trillion in infrastructure spending. Biden came in around 3. Biden negotiated for months with the other WV Senator and her best offer was......negative 700 billion. Mainly using Covid money to fund old school infrastructure projects. Manchin to this day won't agree to using reconciliation to pass something.

-Mitch McConnell and GOP leadership are openly saying their aim to sabotage Biden at every step

Regarding this. So it is the Dems fault for passing a bill in the House that Manchin didn't like? Because that is all they did. The Senate bill is still in committee, he would have told his caucus he doesn't like this or that negotiated with leadership like a regular ****ing adult. Instead, he writes an OP-ED claiming he won't stop partisan power grabs unless it is in a bipartisan fashion.

yah i can understand why it's frustrating reading about manchin

it seems pretty clear he's a dude more interested in the appearance of deal making bipartisanship than a specific policy vision.

but unfortunately he's the 50th vote so I think you gotta cater to his idiocracies.

-Furthermore, how the **** would the House Dems know Joe Manchin would come out against a bill he... check notes....****ing co-sponsored in 2019?

because it's Joe Manchin? If the house wants to do that fine I guess, but Chuck Schumer should have played this better instead of forcing that vote.


[/QUOTE]

 

[junglejim]

I feel like voter ID laws would have as much of an effect on the GOP as democrats given a large portion of their base is retired and likely doesnt drive anymore. If you can come to a reasonable definition of ID its not a terrible compromise if it stops ridiculous gerrymandering of state maps and eliminating voting stations in heavy blue areas.

 

[RustyShackleford]

dwalk31

 

[Mark Antony]

This ad has me dying every time Youngkin shows up. I'm like uhhh...

 

[RustyShackleford]

Yah I think he's good faith in the sense that he really thinks the filibuster is good, and that it encourages bipartisanship which is a good unto itself.

So trying to save the filibuster by getting republicans to vote for jan 6 makes total sense to me.

he's just catraphically wrong about the filibuster.

So I am to believe that he is acting in good faith even though he ignores evidence and observable reality that undercuts his point? Even though he does unnecessary **** to throw his caucus under the bus. All his actions matter.

yah i can understand why it's frustrating reading about manchin

it seems pretty clear he's a dude more interested in the appearance of deal making bipartisanship than a specific policy vision.

but unfortunately he's the 50th vote so I think you gotta cater to his idiocracies.

I accept all this. But are talking about the Dems not trying to expose the truth to Manchin, when that is clearly not the case. They catering to him.

You keep acting like people are not trying with Manchin when observable reality tells us otherwise.

because it's Joe Manchin? If the house wants to do that fine I guess, but Chuck Schumer should have played this better instead of forcing that vote.

Forcing what vote? Dude GOP states are passing voter suppression bills like crazy. Voting Rights advocates and State Democratic Parties started to panic, especially since census data is out so redistricting is around the corner. They begged the National Dems to do something and Schumer said he would hold a vote for the Voting Rights Bills by the end of June because the Senate leaves on the 28th. The rumors of Schumer's move started toward the end of May. The last action on the bill was a committee meeting for the bill was on 5/17.

Actions - S.1 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): For the People Act of 2021

Actions on S.1 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): For the People Act of 2021

www.congress.gov

So Manchin's hand was not forced. He wrote the op-ed 10 days ago. So he waited an extra 10 days from then to circulate his compromises. He had ample time to talk to the people writing the bill. This **** show is of Manchin's creation. Schumer giving Manchin a heads up over a month in advance in not forcing his hand.

Famb, playing devil's advocate for a delusional white racist is really the hill you wanna die on?

 

[dacomeup]

There is always a bit of backlash, in here, when there is any suggestion that more than the GOP contribute to voter suppression.

As I’ve said many times, I am against voter suppression—no matter who is doing it.

Are Democratic Senator Joe Manchin’s demands for mandated Voter ID and his opposition to universal mail-in voting considered voter suppression in here? Or is it different when he demands it?

This is really the best you have after we’ve been criticizing Manchin in this thread for essentially the entire calendar year at this point?

 

[RustyShackleford]

 

[IATT]

seems like it would take a lot of electricity…

 

[Based Jesus]

I don't care what Joe Manchin actually believes, it literally does not matter, he can believe whatever the hell he likes but his actions determine the end result and right now the end result isn't favorable for the democratic future of this country