***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[Quincy McCall]

I don't think people need to celebrate the economy

But most Americans are dead wrong about the state of the economy. Like simple economic facts

And those misconceptions are creating a major political problem for the Democrats

Facts and feelings not aligning usually makes for some terrible politics but -- even for folks that are aware-- that alone doesn't push the needle far enough to get most folks to redress it

People are more receptive to positive change that they can see, touch and feel, and Dems have drive home on that given the uneven political field. (think you just posted that above)

Not disagreeing, just ****ty facts in a country with very low public civic education

 

[WASHED KING]

If you are being serious, you are a trash person then

*Dropping my theatrics* No I do not want a recession any time soon especially heading into an election year.




BUT if one could follow in like another 2 years that could drop the prices of homes while cutting the number of potential buyers that would be awesome. I'm almost right where I need to be at debt/income ratio wise and with enough in savings to pull the trigger but I'm not trying to be house poor or have to sacrifice buying Chelseas.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

On the flip side, people are so bad at understanding economics that you need to give them something tangible to hold onto.

Mitch McConnell was right, he was giddy when Joe Manchin killed BBB, especially the enhanced child tax credit

And he was so happy about it because of the political implications.

You give voters something, they get used to it, and then you can run on saying the other guy is coming to take what you have.

Joe Biden has to sell industrial policy (which people don't understand the benefits of), to voters mad about inflation (which they don't understand what it is), because he doesn't have a simpler economic argument to make.

Joe and the Dems are in a dangerous place right now.

have you seen compelling evidence of the political effect of the child tax credit?
because my memory is that it did not really give Biden a polling bump, and there was not a backlash when it expired.

I thought there would be a big backlash like there was to repealing Obamacare but my memory is it didn't really register.

 

[WASHED KING]

obviously this is all my intuition but as i've investigated it I def don't think it's small,
i've aged out of the twitch, youtuber demo, but as I look into it

there is a kind of pop feminist, kill all men online ironic mode that a lot of these people operate in.
and reflexive hatred of behavior's that are typically male coded.

it's always existed, when I was in college my friend was in the campus feminist club/org, they talked that way in private.
but I think its mainstream and public now,

I think if you are a young medium to low status male today I think it's really off putting to be told about your privilege

-despite the fact that women are graduating at higher rates,
-men are commiting suicides at higher rates,
-women are our starting to out pace men in earnings.
-popular film and tv are constantly focused on uplifting women, and producing female led projects.
-male behavior's patterns are labeled as "toxic"
-male loneliness epidemic laughed at / mocked

and then right wing people then grab on to the worst examples and say "look they don't care about you! see! the left hates men!"



I just think there is a culture on the left, and in many left organization where women are treated like whole human beings
and casual hatred of men is not only cool, its kind of gives you social credit.

I work in all left spaces and I feel this dynamic, I know to be "one of the good ones" you say certain talking points or **** on men and it ingratiates you with the social group.

I have to think any young male is going to find this totally off putting.
and get drawn to far right spaces.

These type of people make it very easy for me to bring young men over to where they belong.

If only he was still here. They take the good ones too soon

 

[RustyShackleford]

obviously this is all my intuition but as i've investigated it I def don't think it's small,
i've aged out of the twitch, youtuber demo, but as I look into it

there is a kind of pop feminist, kill all men online ironic mode that a lot of these people operate in.
and reflexive hatred of behavior's that are typically male coded.

it's always existed, when I was in college my friend was in the campus feminist club/org, they talked that way in private.
but I think its mainstream and public now,

I think if you are a young medium to low status male today I think it's really off putting to be told about your privilege

-despite the fact that women are graduating at higher rates,
-men are commiting suicides at higher rates,
-women are our starting to out pace men in earnings.
-popular film and tv are constantly focused on uplifting women, and producing female led projects.
-male behavior's patterns are labeled as "toxic"
-male loneliness epidemic laughed at / mocked

and then right wing people then grab on to the worst examples and say "look they don't care about you! see! the left hates men!"



I just think there is a culture on the left, and in many left organization where women are treated like whole human beings
and casual hatred of men is not only cool, its kind of gives you social credit.

I work in all left spaces and I feel this dynamic, I know to be "one of the good ones" you say certain talking points or **** on men and it ingratiates you with the social group.

I have to think any young male is going to find this totally off putting.
and get drawn to far right spaces.

Yeah, I remain unconvinced

The core of your argument is a young men interact with progressive elements, then that alienate them, and the right comes along and scoops them up.

I think a lot of these young men and boys are targeted in spaces they naturally gravitate to that often have little to do with social commentary.

The streamers they watch, TikToks, their friends, sports and gaming forums, etc. There is often another hook, get introduced to these ideas.

I dunno. Maybe because I see so many different "progressive" spaces in my own daily life (university, union, local activist, social work). Also taught and talked to a lot of college students.

I feel it is more real-world issues that are pushing young men into corners where they become the perfect marks.

Your argument relies on a bunch of assumptions I just don't think are true. Well, they might be to some degree, but not at the level you believe.

---

Sure a lot of the discourse on the left is not helpful and alienating, but provides bad actors with ammo.

I am not underselling this. I think it is extremely stupid.

a) Because it mirrors sexist commentary toward women

b) Counterproductive. Not only that it makes any man who hears it defensive (even though that is sympathetic to your cause). It instantly destroys any positive mental model that exists to help men drop their bad habits. Toxic masculinity was helpful for like 5 min before it got bastardized.

But Some grifters on the right are going after boys well before they have encounters with, or even understand, the outer edges of progressive social commentary

 

[RustyShackleford]

have you seen compelling evidence of the political effect of the child tax credit?
because my memory is that it did not really give Biden a polling bump, and there was not a backlash when it expired.

I thought there would be a big backlash like there was to repealing Obamacare but my memory is it didn't really register.

Obamacare was a political loser for the Dems for a while. Especially right after it passed

Now it is the opposite.

Pelosi was right. Once people live with the ACA for a while and see the benefits, they will like it. Her timeline was just wrong.

She said the same things about the political upside of BBB.

I don't think that a snapshot of polling is conclusive evidence that killing it was inconsequential.

Especially when you had so much chatter about Mitch McConnell openly saying that it would be bad in future elections if the Dems could run on telling parents the GOP would take that money away. He was so happy Manchin killed it, that he was open to doing the CHIP Act partly as a reward.

This is a fundamental issue I have with polularism. Making long-term political decisions based on polling snapshots leads people to some stupid decisions

I seriously. I dunno how people can argue that the Dem need to roll back their social/cultural positions/messaging and focus on delivering material benefits to people.

Then when they try to do that, and it is killed for an asinine reason, the reaction is from a lot of people in that same group is...

 

[RustyShackleford]

These type of people make it very easy for me to bring young men over to where they belong.

If only he was still here. They take the good ones too soon

Kevin Samuels is a dude who gave basic dating advice in an abrasive manner.

If someone could strip away the theatrics, there was some solid info to be gained. But that could have been covered in like 30 mins

But he also said a lot of stupid ****. And repackaged some disgusting right-wing talking points about black women back to black men.

I could see why someone would be entertained by the spectacle for a little bit.

But dudes that watch that **** for months and months probably just didn't like women all that much.

To me, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze

 

[aepps20]

I will add to the discussion that even when we give voters tangible things for whatever reason we rarely get credit. Manchin is a deplorable that sentenced kids to a life of poverty. Even if the BBB passed I really don’t know how much political credit Joe Biden would get. Our side is expected to do things like that. We are expected to be the adults while Republicans can be vile scums. I’ve asked Republicans in my life when I’m in Kayfabe what we are actually for and no one can really explain it. I just focus on MAGA and we give each other high .


Look at student loan forgiveness. Not only did Joe amend the rules where lots of people received loan forgiveness right now, he tried to get broad based student loan forgiveness. The corrupt court stopped him but even with that millions in student loan debt was forgiven. Sadly, we have people on this very site that somehow blame Joe for student loan forgiveness and some argue that he and Dems are somehow to blame. I’ve personally spent too much time explaining how Republicans and their court are to blame. Instead of getting mad at Republicans, too many of our youth are saying Joe Biden is at fault for not doing enough with Student Loan Debt and downplay the tangible benefits and strides made on that front.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I think a lot of these young men and boys are targeted in spaces they naturally gravitate to that often have little to do with social commentary.

yah but there's two sides to that also. the left doesn't create spaces that young men would naturally gravitate towards.
in fact it's cool to label the spaces and behavior patterns that young men are attracted to as toxically masculine.

do you like male typical video games? "what are you some gamer gate loser?"
Do you like edgy comedy? "sexist" (unless the target of the joke is men, then it's cool)
How bout male typical fandoms? "don't you dare show a hint of disappointment when we gender swap your favorite characters"
Do you like debate? "What are you some "debate bro" loser?"

there are not many left spaces that cater to young male typical interests.

look this is mostly my intuition, and I can't prove it.
but Im a pretty anti social/weird person, so im not very influenced by peers,

but if I was a younger man, it would be incredibly off putting enough to drive me to the right? probably not
but def enough for me to look at them with jaundice eye.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I am not saying there would be some big Upshot to Biden from BBB that would guarantee him victory

But in the long run, the GOP will have to run on and roll back BBB.

Doing so gives Dems a convincing, more easily understood, economic argument

Bidenomics is mainly Industrial Policy.

I simply don't know how you sell that to voters

Understanding Inflation is kicking their asses bad enough

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I am not saying there would be some big Upshot to Biden from BBB that would guarantee him victory

But in the long run, the GOP will have to run on and roll back BBB.

Doing so gives Dems a convincing, more easily understood, economic argument

Bidenomics is mainly Industrial Policy.

I simply don't know how you sell that to voters

Understanding Inflation is kicking their asses bad enough

I think emphasizing that inflation is a global crisis.

youre the economist youd know better than I but it seems like and Biden has done by far the best job of any world leader handling it. its seems to me this should be a feather in his cap.



it just feels like all these people doing all these gymnastics to come up with why actually the economy is bad.


tbh Bidens performance seems like validation of everything the left has ever said.
That the only real limitation on spending is inflation, and if you get inflation it can be controlled without austerity or major job loses.

and tight labour market give workers unions better ability to bargain and secure wage gains for workers.

it just feels strange to me not to not point that constantly if your in left media.
and it feels mainstream will play both sides, and right and left media will come up with ways to say it's bad.

 

[Belgium]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

These type of people make it very easy for me to bring young men over to where they belong.

If only he was still here. They take the good ones too soon

imo Kev was an inevitable backlash to the "lean in", pop feminism of the early 2010's.

Every Body is beautiful (except if your a man shorter than 6ft, in that case you don't deserve human rights)
We are all equal (every woman is a queen)
All women don't need men (but they still want men who make more than them)
We are sex positive. (unless it's male sexuality, male sexuality is disgusting and degrading.)

it was unsustainable, and he was an inevitable counterweight.
Its immature but it was entertaining to see women confronted with these contradictions.


but his death lead to a group of even worse, way dumber and more toxic version of him filling the void.
JustPearlyThings person literally just says like way dumber basterdized version of Kevin Smaules talking points.


TBH I think Kev was chilling out a bit by the end and he prob would have been a net positive if he never died and continued to evolve.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I think emphasizing that inflation is a global crisis.

youre the economist youd know better than I but it seems like and Biden has done by far the best job of any world leader handling it. its seems to me this should be a feather in his cap.



it just feels like all these people doing all these gymnastics to come up with why actually the economy is bad.


tbh Bidens performance seems like validation of everything the left has ever said.
That the only real limitation on spending is inflation, and if you get inflation it can be controlled without austerity or major job loses.

and tight labour market give workers unions better ability to bargain and secure wage gains for workers.

it just feels strange to me not to not point that constantly if your in left media.
and it feels mainstream will play both sides, and right and left media will come up with ways to say it's bad.

From my job, to talking to my friends who do focus groups, it is a much harder task than most realize.

I know from teaching and my job most people don't really understand inflation. Not even at a basic level. But they are convinced that they do.

That is a major roadblock. When the vibes are bad for irrational reasons, people don't want to listen.

On a basic level, Inflation is the year-over-year increase in prices of things.

Most regular people just think inflation is when prices are high.

So it doesn't matter inflation happened everywhere, it doesn't matter it slowed down a ton, people still see prices being high (higher than what they remember in 2019) so they convince themselves inflation is still a problem.

It makes it even worse that we had such a prolonged period of low inflation in America. (which was bad, but again, try to explain that to someone).

From my encounters with voters, the second you tell them inflation came down, most will disagree and will talk about their grocery bill or how much more it costs to do some regular ole family activity.

Kinda feels like people have to live with these higher prices for a while for the anger to fade. And I honestly don't know if 11 months is enough time.

 

[RustyShackleford]

imo Kev was an inevitable backlash to the "lean in", pop feminism of the early 2010's.

Every Body is beautiful (except if your a man shorter than 6ft, in that case you don't deserve human rights)
We are all equal (every woman is a queen)
All women don't need men (but they still want men who make more than them)
We are sex positive. (unless it's male sexuality, male sexuality is disgusting and degrading.)

it was unsustainable, and he was an inevitable counterweight.
Its immature but it was entertaining to see women confronted with these contradictions.

My issue with Samuels is when he said **** like the liberals with welfare sabotaged the black family. And suggested that cutting the welfare state would be a net positive because it would put women in economic conditions where they had to rely on a man more.

Implied Black American women are uniquely disloyal, promiscuous, and morally bankrupt. Especially compared to their grandmothers

****ted on them for getting advanced degrees

Dog whistled the welfare queen trope

It was clear he had issues with 80s and 90s-styled feminism too.

When Kev wasn't going at it with delusional callers, he said a lot of stupid and vile ****.

His ideology was incoherent at times. And the few times I noticed someone calling him out for this, he escalated the conversation so he could get back control.

but his death lead to a group of even worse, way dumber and more toxic version of him filling the void.
JustPearlyThings person literally just says like way dumber basterdized version of Kevin Smaules talking points.

I agree with this.

Kevin Samuels as a person made sense. A 50-something-year-old black dude who has been twice divorced talking like that made sense. I know dudes like KS

But when someone in their early 20s, even their 30s, they should not have all this hostility for women. They either have some prior trauma they haven't worked through (even posters in the KS thread were rationalizing their support for him with stories of their past traumas) or they are a scammer performing.

TBH I think Kev was chilling out a bit by the end and he prob would have been a net positive if he never died and continued to evolve.

Ehhhh, he was getting more mainstream so I feel he probably knew he had to chill somewhat

But I think when his 15 minutes of fame ended, and you have to go back to your core audience, that is an incentive to be back on the BS.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

My issue with Samuels is when he said **** like the liberals with welfare sabotaged the black family. And suggested that cutting the welfare state would be a net positive because it would put women in economic conditions where they had to rely on a man more.

Implied Black American women are uniquely disloyal, promiscuous, and morally bankrupt. Especially compared to their grandmothers

****ted on them for getting advanced degrees

Dog whistled the welfare queen trope

It was clear he had issues with 80s and 90s-styled feminism too.

When Kev wasn't going at it with delusional callers, he said a lot of stupid and vile ****.

His ideology was incoherent at times. And the few times I noticed someone calling him out for this, he escalated the conversation so he could get back control.

oh I agree,
imo Kev was only good for "How" and was terrible for "Why"

pretty much any time Kevin Samuels offered his theories as to why things the way they are.

it was guarantee to be some black barbershop "da emasculation of da black male" black women are unique degenerates type nonsense.

but I think on the how questions.

How do I find a husband? Lose weight, be nice and maternal.
How do I find a girlfriend? Work hard, get a job, be accountable.

generally his advice how to do something was pretty good.

but I didn't realize there are bizarro womasphere versions of Kevin Samuels,
they call themselves "divestors" basically their entire ideology black men are uniquely degenerate, so there is some toxicity for everyone.

 

[aepps20]

I think emphasizing that inflation is a global crisis.

youre the economist youd know better than I but it seems like and Biden has done by far the best job of any world leader handling it. its seems to me this should be a feather in his cap.



it just feels like all these people doing all these gymnastics to come up with why actually the economy is bad.


tbh Bidens performance seems like validation of everything the left has ever said.
That the only real limitation on spending is inflation, and if you get inflation it can be controlled without austerity or major job loses.

and tight labour market give workers unions better ability to bargain and secure wage gains for workers.

it just feels strange to me not to not point that constantly if your in left media.
and it feels mainstream will play both sides, and right and left media will come up with ways to say it's bad.

This speaks to the entitlement of the average American. Sadly, even when factors impact everyone globally we believe that our leaders should do something to make us exempt

 

[Belgium]

oh I agree,
imo Kev was only good for "How" and was terrible for "Why"

pretty much any time Kevin Samuels offered his theories as to why things the way they are.

it was guarantee to be some black barbershop "da emasculation of da black male" black women are unique degenerates type nonsense.

but I think on the how questions.

How do I find a husband? Lose weight, be nice and maternal.
How do I find a girlfriend? Work hard, get a job, be accountable.

generally his advice how to do something was pretty good.

but I didn't realize there are bizarro womasphere versions of Kevin Samuels,
they call themselves "divestors" basically their entire ideology black men are uniquely degenerate, so there is some toxicity for everyone.

I think the entirety of the so-called 'manosphere' is an utterly pathetic grift that does infinitely more harm than the basic advice that might be sprinkled in. It's hard to think of a more pathetic group of people than the losers who spend their time listening to Fresh 'n Fit, Sneako, etc and live in a delusional fantasy where their alpha/beta/sigma male bull**** isn't just the male equivalent of horoscopes and healing crystals

 

[Mark Antony]

Y'all really gotta hop off a dude you were probably only really aware of for about a year and wasn't that deep.

 

[IATT]

 

[finessence]

I think the entirety of the so-called 'manosphere' is an utterly pathetic grift that does infinitely more harm than the basic advice that might be sprinkled in. It's hard to think of a more pathetic group of people than the losers who spend their time listening to Fresh 'n Fit, Sneako, etc and live in a delusional fantasy where their alpha/beta/sigma male bull**** isn't just the male equivalent of horoscopes and healing crystals

It’s all a racket man. Those dudes strictly are trying to make money. They don’t care about the dating world/dating pool. Y’all really think those dudes give a damn about some geek or incel who doesn’t even go outside?

They’re strictly about money. I don’t understand how you fellas don’t realize that

 

[finessence]

Y'all really gotta hop off a dude you were probably only really aware of for about a year and wasn't that deep.

Exactly. I grew up off too short. The “Mack” Donald goines and iceberg slim books. Kevin just said what a lot men are afraid to say. Nothing wrong with holding both genders accountable. Two things can be true at times.

If you’re out here seeking dating advice at a certain age, then you’ve got bigger problems or never quite paid attention to anything. Being in your late 20s, 30s and 40s and not knowing the dynamics of male/female interactions, then you definitely have some personal issues. I understand young adults not knowing and still taking lumps along the journey but older folks? Somethings fishy and it’s usually that person themselves

Too short and various other rap artist and entertainers have said far worse. And women still listen to the music. Kevin’s message was no different

 

[IATT]

 

[jape]

 

[Wargames]

She is better at this than he is….