The Official NBA PG Thread

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Nash is Nash because he can shoot like no other, but also because he can pass. Curry is not a great passer, he doesn't have natural court vision, and despite having two offensive threats in Ellis and Lee, he posted an assist to turnover rate under two, and a mediocre assist rate. John Wall does have natural court vision, and while having a similar usage rate to Curry, he put up significantly better passing numbers, all the while playing with a pack of morons on offense.

There's no way Curry's shooting makes his potential greater than Wall's, when there is a significant difference in their potential defense, passing, rebounding, etc. Defense is still the biggest difference though, PG may be the least valuable defensive position in your opinion, but in a PG heavy league, it's quite important. Also, Curry will never be the match-up problem Wall will be, and the inherent value in that can't be overstated.
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See I disagree, Curry shows flashes of great court vision, his assist rate is hampered by Monta Ellis and how much he has the ball in his hands he might as well be splitting point guard duties with Monta.  John Wall has the ball in his hands more than anyone at that team and thus can rack up more assists but GS is insistent upon not developing him and forcing him to play with Ellis.

I did not say his potential is greater, I just said it's just as immense, the value of that type of shooting from the PG position in particular cannot be overstated. Defense from PG's because of the fact that most of them use pick and rolls heavily, guarding them is much more of a team issue. You can be a great defensive PG, but unless you have an awesome defensive PF/C you will be shredded most times.

Curry best skill is maybe the most valuable PG skill.
Wall best skill is probably the least valuable PG skill.
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They use the same amount of possessions (according to bballref, Curry uses more) so your first excuse for Curry's lack of assists compared to Wall is flawed. And you conveniently didn't address the fact that Wall is getting those numbers while playing with inept offensive players.
It's your opinion that Curry's potential is on par with Wall's, and I doubt we'll change each other's mind, but your case is rather weak. You keep referencing Nash as a parallel, and that's all well and good, but some of the greatest PGs of all time weren't great shooters. (Magic, Isiah, Kidd, Payton, etc) Once again, Nash is such an offensive force because of his passing and shooting. You really can't say which skill is more valuable to his success, and Curry has only really displayed his shooting consistently.

Wall's best skill is his ability to beat defenders and get to the basket, and his second is his vision/awareness. I'd argue that those are the two most valuable PG skills.
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Im talking about how the possessions are used not how many possessions are used, Curry is basically alternating between SG and PG he's not really playing full time PG. Usage rate doesn't reflect this.

Sure some of the greatest PG's have not been particularly a good shooter but I belive they are the exception to the rule, statistics bare this out, your point guards 3P% has a really strong correlation to how good your offense is going to be.

If you give me the choice between the elite defender or the elite shooter at that position I take the shooter. Thats just me. 

John Wall could just as well end up being better and likely given how dumb GS management is but, I'm just saying shooters like that at that position to me are really valuable.
 
Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Nash is Nash because he can shoot like no other, but also because he can pass. Curry is not a great passer, he doesn't have natural court vision, and despite having two offensive threats in Ellis and Lee, he posted an assist to turnover rate under two, and a mediocre assist rate. John Wall does have natural court vision, and while having a similar usage rate to Curry, he put up significantly better passing numbers, all the while playing with a pack of morons on offense.

There's no way Curry's shooting makes his potential greater than Wall's, when there is a significant difference in their potential defense, passing, rebounding, etc. Defense is still the biggest difference though, PG may be the least valuable defensive position in your opinion, but in a PG heavy league, it's quite important. Also, Curry will never be the match-up problem Wall will be, and the inherent value in that can't be overstated.
Click to expand...

See I disagree, Curry shows flashes of great court vision, his assist rate is hampered by Monta Ellis and how much he has the ball in his hands he might as well be splitting point guard duties with Monta.  John Wall has the ball in his hands more than anyone at that team and thus can rack up more assists but GS is insistent upon not developing him and forcing him to play with Ellis.

I did not say his potential is greater, I just said it's just as immense, the value of that type of shooting from the PG position in particular cannot be overstated. Defense from PG's because of the fact that most of them use pick and rolls heavily, guarding them is much more of a team issue. You can be a great defensive PG, but unless you have an awesome defensive PF/C you will be shredded most times.

Curry best skill is maybe the most valuable PG skill.
Wall best skill is probably the least valuable PG skill.
Click to expand...
They use the same amount of possessions (according to bballref, Curry uses more) so your first excuse for Curry's lack of assists compared to Wall is flawed. And you conveniently didn't address the fact that Wall is getting those numbers while playing with inept offensive players.
It's your opinion that Curry's potential is on par with Wall's, and I doubt we'll change each other's mind, but your case is rather weak. You keep referencing Nash as a parallel, and that's all well and good, but some of the greatest PGs of all time weren't great shooters. (Magic, Isiah, Kidd, Payton, etc) Once again, Nash is such an offensive force because of his passing and shooting. You really can't say which skill is more valuable to his success, and Curry has only really displayed his shooting consistently.

Wall's best skill is his ability to beat defenders and get to the basket, and his second is his vision/awareness. I'd argue that those are the two most valuable PG skills.
Click to expand...
Im talking about how the possessions are used not how many possessions are used, Curry is basically alternating between SG and PG he's not really playing full time PG. Usage rate doesn't reflect this.

Sure some of the greatest PG's have not been particularly a good shooter but I belive they are the exception to the rule, statistics bare this out, your point guards 3P% has a really strong correlation to how good your offense is going to be.

If you give me the choice between the elite defender or the elite shooter at that position I take the shooter. Thats just me. 

John Wall could just as well end up being better and likely given how dumb GS management is but, I'm just saying shooters like that at that position to me are really valuable.
 
SCuse7 wrote:
He'll never be a great shooter but you don't think he can get to Derrick Rose's level? Rose couldn't shoot coming into the league and his jumpshot is serviceable now. I see no reason why he can't improve that.

Point Guard is really the least valuable defensive position...? With the amount of great point guards I would think it would be one of the most important.


   Proximity to the basket. Besides what position is less important.
The Wing's? Power Forward? Center?
Its still PG and has been since the beginning of time, that's a generalization though and for some teams in the past they made preventing penetration the absolute. The hand check rule makes it impossible to guard though.
I see the value in both arguments, but the bottom line is that having a pg that can shoot maintains floor balance in the traditional sense. Shooting isn't the most important aspect of the pg position anymore though. Now its the ability to penetrate and create,and that's a direct result of the hand check rule.
You can be a very good pg even if you cannot shoot long jump shots via having great athletic ability. You cannot be a great pg if you cannot get into the lane and finish at least on occasion, or find the open shooters.
Its why Brandon Jennings despite being at least an very good outside shooter didn't get a whole lot better year 2 he isn't much of a threat to finish cause he isn't strong enough.
Its one of the reasons I have never bought into the idea of Chauncey Billups being more than an above average combo guard.

If you look at the PG's there are three types.
Guys who are athletic to finish at or above the rim with consistant power and athletic ability (aka New school)
Wall
Westbrook
Rose
Guys who arent threats to get inside very often but run the offence with precision (aka Old school)
Kidd 
Nash
Paul
Williams
Guys who can get into the lane and finish but its generally with finnese
Parker
Rondo
Nash

I could list more names but I would hope you got the general idea.
Now there are guys who combine all 3 elements and the guy who can do that the best is the best PG on Offense. (Going to refrain from naming names)
Ability to get into the lane is a combination of athletic ability, and shooting ability or in more simplistic terms how quick are you, and how much do teams sag off you. The best athletes can overcome how much teams sag off them.
I feel at this time you cannot be an average NBA athlete and be the best PG, and Im fairly certain after watching like 100 games in the past 2 months thats an aboslute case. Example Derron Williams. Now Im pretty sure he will make adjustments, but the lack of chemistry and the inability of the Nets to simply pass the ball as well as an glut of big men who do not stretch the floor like Okur, and some what Boozer have caused him to struggle.
Rondo and Parker have 3pt shooters who defenders cannot leave and that allows them to have great in the paint scoring numbers. Lawson is in a similar situation, You wont leave Gallo, you wont leave JR when he is with in 28 ft and you might leave Affallo but he will burn you too.  Couple that with Nene being a mobile big, and Lawsons pure talent and you have a guy who cannot only finish, sometimes with power ( his running back like frame) but you have him in a near optimal situation for improvement within that group.
Wall has the power speed and quickness but the team sometimes hinders him with the Knucklehead factor (only talking about on court) and his lack of confidance in his jumper effects how he runs the offense.
John has to understand that his current precentages from deep 2 and long range were fine for this season and he needed to get to the hole more to improve his scoring and passing opertunities.
Now he needs to become a servicable jump shooter, drive to the hoop more and get used to driving to the lane and finding his shooters.
Curry will never be able to get to the lane with the effectiveness of a Lawson or a Wall, he isn't in the same class of passer as either guy ( though hes a better passer in space than both) and his jump shot is overrated if he is taking 5 3's a game.
I still think that he has to get out of GS and away from Monta Ellis. Hes not a superior enough talent to keep Monta in his best role aka 2005 GS nor does he have anything close to comprable talent around him.
In conclusion.
LMAO at the fact that I just typed a poorly formatted essay on this topic

Shooting is not as important as being able to get into the paint be it with strength, speed, guile or some type of combination. This does not change the fact that PG is still the least important individual defensive position on the floor if simply cause you can rotate over to cover a penitrating point guard and few will attempt to finish over you. And scramble situations can be prefected , you cannot prevent a dunk from a big man close to the hole, and wing players generally combine the best of both worlds as far as having quickness to get to the hole, mid range shooting ability and passing ability as well as size.
John still has the most talent, and has just had either the 2nd or 3rd most impressive rookie season since 1979
Lawson is almost a perfect fit for a George Karl offense, and can do nothing but grow imo
and Curry could stand to gain 10 lbs of muscle. giving him more strength ala Deron Williams so that he can at least muscle his way into the lane, and use his very good finesse game to finish in the paint.
Click to expand...
 
SCuse7 wrote:
He'll never be a great shooter but you don't think he can get to Derrick Rose's level? Rose couldn't shoot coming into the league and his jumpshot is serviceable now. I see no reason why he can't improve that.

Point Guard is really the least valuable defensive position...? With the amount of great point guards I would think it would be one of the most important.


   Proximity to the basket. Besides what position is less important.
The Wing's? Power Forward? Center?
Its still PG and has been since the beginning of time, that's a generalization though and for some teams in the past they made preventing penetration the absolute. The hand check rule makes it impossible to guard though.
I see the value in both arguments, but the bottom line is that having a pg that can shoot maintains floor balance in the traditional sense. Shooting isn't the most important aspect of the pg position anymore though. Now its the ability to penetrate and create,and that's a direct result of the hand check rule.
You can be a very good pg even if you cannot shoot long jump shots via having great athletic ability. You cannot be a great pg if you cannot get into the lane and finish at least on occasion, or find the open shooters.
Its why Brandon Jennings despite being at least an very good outside shooter didn't get a whole lot better year 2 he isn't much of a threat to finish cause he isn't strong enough.
Its one of the reasons I have never bought into the idea of Chauncey Billups being more than an above average combo guard.

If you look at the PG's there are three types.
Guys who are athletic to finish at or above the rim with consistant power and athletic ability (aka New school)
Wall
Westbrook
Rose
Guys who arent threats to get inside very often but run the offence with precision (aka Old school)
Kidd 
Nash
Paul
Williams
Guys who can get into the lane and finish but its generally with finnese
Parker
Rondo
Nash

I could list more names but I would hope you got the general idea.
Now there are guys who combine all 3 elements and the guy who can do that the best is the best PG on Offense. (Going to refrain from naming names)
Ability to get into the lane is a combination of athletic ability, and shooting ability or in more simplistic terms how quick are you, and how much do teams sag off you. The best athletes can overcome how much teams sag off them.
I feel at this time you cannot be an average NBA athlete and be the best PG, and Im fairly certain after watching like 100 games in the past 2 months thats an aboslute case. Example Derron Williams. Now Im pretty sure he will make adjustments, but the lack of chemistry and the inability of the Nets to simply pass the ball as well as an glut of big men who do not stretch the floor like Okur, and some what Boozer have caused him to struggle.
Rondo and Parker have 3pt shooters who defenders cannot leave and that allows them to have great in the paint scoring numbers. Lawson is in a similar situation, You wont leave Gallo, you wont leave JR when he is with in 28 ft and you might leave Affallo but he will burn you too.  Couple that with Nene being a mobile big, and Lawsons pure talent and you have a guy who cannot only finish, sometimes with power ( his running back like frame) but you have him in a near optimal situation for improvement within that group.
Wall has the power speed and quickness but the team sometimes hinders him with the Knucklehead factor (only talking about on court) and his lack of confidance in his jumper effects how he runs the offense.
John has to understand that his current precentages from deep 2 and long range were fine for this season and he needed to get to the hole more to improve his scoring and passing opertunities.
Now he needs to become a servicable jump shooter, drive to the hoop more and get used to driving to the lane and finding his shooters.
Curry will never be able to get to the lane with the effectiveness of a Lawson or a Wall, he isn't in the same class of passer as either guy ( though hes a better passer in space than both) and his jump shot is overrated if he is taking 5 3's a game.
I still think that he has to get out of GS and away from Monta Ellis. Hes not a superior enough talent to keep Monta in his best role aka 2005 GS nor does he have anything close to comprable talent around him.
In conclusion.
LMAO at the fact that I just typed a poorly formatted essay on this topic

Shooting is not as important as being able to get into the paint be it with strength, speed, guile or some type of combination. This does not change the fact that PG is still the least important individual defensive position on the floor if simply cause you can rotate over to cover a penitrating point guard and few will attempt to finish over you. And scramble situations can be prefected , you cannot prevent a dunk from a big man close to the hole, and wing players generally combine the best of both worlds as far as having quickness to get to the hole, mid range shooting ability and passing ability as well as size.
John still has the most talent, and has just had either the 2nd or 3rd most impressive rookie season since 1979
Lawson is almost a perfect fit for a George Karl offense, and can do nothing but grow imo
and Curry could stand to gain 10 lbs of muscle. giving him more strength ala Deron Williams so that he can at least muscle his way into the lane, and use his very good finesse game to finish in the paint.
Click to expand...
 
I have great respect for Wall. I see top 3 pg potential in him. I say this knowing it's already crowded at the top of the pg field.

He just needs a group of guys in Washington who aren't idiots and he missed a lot of games early on this season so that prolly messed up his groove.
 
I have great respect for Wall. I see top 3 pg potential in him. I say this knowing it's already crowded at the top of the pg field.

He just needs a group of guys in Washington who aren't idiots and he missed a lot of games early on this season so that prolly messed up his groove.
 
Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:
Im talking about how the possessions are used not how many possessions are used, Curry is basically alternating between SG and PG he's not really playing full time PG. Usage rate doesn't reflect this.

Sure some of the greatest PG's have not been particularly a good shooter but I belive they are the exception to the rule, statistics bare this out, your point guards 3P% has a really strong correlation to how good your offense is going to be.

If you give me the choice between the elite defender or the elite shooter at that position I take the shooter. Thats just me. 

John Wall could just as well end up being better and likely given how dumb GS management is but, I'm just saying shooters like that at that position to me are really valuable.



I think your overvaluing shooting relative to basically every other facet of the game in which Wall possesses and has demonstrated a distinct advantage. Shooting does have a great impact on offense, but looking at it logically, it's still just one of many contributing factor to offense, which is still only one half of the game. Therein lies the difference in terms of "potential" which in my opinion can be further defined as total impact on the game. In that case, I'd opine that Wall has a significant higher ceiling.
Click to expand...
 
Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:
Im talking about how the possessions are used not how many possessions are used, Curry is basically alternating between SG and PG he's not really playing full time PG. Usage rate doesn't reflect this.

Sure some of the greatest PG's have not been particularly a good shooter but I belive they are the exception to the rule, statistics bare this out, your point guards 3P% has a really strong correlation to how good your offense is going to be.

If you give me the choice between the elite defender or the elite shooter at that position I take the shooter. Thats just me. 

John Wall could just as well end up being better and likely given how dumb GS management is but, I'm just saying shooters like that at that position to me are really valuable.



I think your overvaluing shooting relative to basically every other facet of the game in which Wall possesses and has demonstrated a distinct advantage. Shooting does have a great impact on offense, but looking at it logically, it's still just one of many contributing factor to offense, which is still only one half of the game. Therein lies the difference in terms of "potential" which in my opinion can be further defined as total impact on the game. In that case, I'd opine that Wall has a significant higher ceiling.
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Originally Posted by cRazy dav0

deron is better than cp3 !
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Why didn't you bump this today?
nerd.gif
 
^
laugh.gif



Incredible performance by CP3 today.  Unreal.  Pretty sure this shows he was restin that final week, no? 
 
^
laugh.gif



Incredible performance by CP3 today.  Unreal.  Pretty sure this shows he was restin that final week, no? 
 
Originally Posted by Bigmike23

Originally Posted by JD617

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0

deron is better than cp3 !
Click to expand...

Why didn't you bump this today?
nerd.gif
Click to expand...

maybe because drose more then held his own yesterday....
  
Click to expand...
Chris Paul playing his *** off to beat the 2-time defending champs > D. Rose has to play his *** off to beat the Pacers
 
Originally Posted by Bigmike23

Originally Posted by JD617

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0

deron is better than cp3 !
Click to expand...

Why didn't you bump this today?
nerd.gif
Click to expand...

maybe because drose more then held his own yesterday....
  
Click to expand...
Chris Paul playing his *** off to beat the 2-time defending champs > D. Rose has to play his *** off to beat the Pacers
 
now deron isn't close ^^^ check the head to head stats when they play ... u saw deron when he came to the nets ... getting 18 assists w/ that bum squad ...

no point in arguing this ...

everyone has there set opinions ...

first it was paul is playing on one leg ... then he has a great game sprinkled w/ some PP school of acting magic and now he the best again ...

for the past couple of years it's been 1A and 1B paul / deron ... now u talking about deron ain't close to paul ... GTFOHWTBS ... that is just pure hate ... i don't care who u think is better ... but not close ...
roll.gif
 
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