Calling all Greeks (Frat/Soror) x Christians. vol: You've got some 'splaining to do...

[slimk4]

And for the record the ideals that i pledged to was Brotherhood, Scholarship, and Service. Not a God.....theres no way you can just assume if you havent beenthere bruh

 

[sundoobie]

Originally Posted by SlimK4

And for the record the ideals that i pledged to was Brotherhood, Scholarship, and Service. Not a God.....theres no way you can just assume if you havent been there bruh

Yup. I joined TKE back in the day and not once was I asked to pledge to a Pagan God and had to renounce my Christianity. No where in our Blackbook(Bylaws and Declaration of Principles) states this.

I joined because of the following fundamentals.. nothing more nothing less.

Members of Tau Kappa Epsilon value scholarship, character, leadership, teamwork, service, and brotherhood. We aim to make a positive difference in society, and become better people in the process.
OP what exactly are you trying to accomplish with this post? Are you saying we Christians are contradicting ourselves because we joined a GreekFraternity? If that is your OPINION and conclusion than so be it. At the end of the day its YOUR opinion.. nothing more nothing less.

 

[scotthallwithapick]

Some people on NT don't know how to read. I can't believe someone counteracted OP by saying "We're African Americans so we pay tribute to ourculutre which was a pagan culture so you're wrong"

Denial isn't a just a river in that one country that practices pagan beliefs

 

[sn00pee]

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Some people on NT don't know how to read. I can't believe someone counteracted OP by saying "We're African Americans so we pay tribute to our culutre which was a pagan culture so you're wrong"

Denial isn't a just a river in that one country that practices pagan beliefs

If that's a shot at me, then try harder.

 

[superantigen]

Originally Posted by sn00pee

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Some people on NT don't know how to read. I can't believe someone counteracted OP by saying "We're African Americans so we pay tribute to our culutre which was a pagan culture so you're wrong"

Denial isn't a just a river in that one country that practices pagan beliefs

If that's a shot at me, then try harder.

It's not a shot--it's an observation recognizing your inability...as evidenced by some of the stuff you proudly typed as though they wereeven relevant to the discussion at hand. And even when they are addressed outright, you type more "fluff" simply because the logical response wascontrary to what you stated...

It's not a shot at you bro, it's not...

...

 

[d3772000]

Originally Posted by Chris5524

Originally Posted by bonafide hustla

Originally Posted by Chris5524

Originally Posted by bonafide hustla

this post will go nowhere.

Imagine if you grew up marveling something. got your @@* beat for X amount of weeks to be in said thing. wore the colors, became greatest of friends, had to learn the history while getting beat, did whatever and pledged your life to it...

regardless of what you say in life, almost anything is justifiable in some fashion. I ain't here to choose a side on the issue, but every greek person is going to be in denial



i will say that i think a lot of people join it for the wrong reason and most...not all...are people who were looking to gain some status elevation which is super lame in itself. then add in a bunch of other very lame factors and i just dont have an overall good view of frats. i linked up with my crew of homies in college b/c we all had similar interests and meshed well. we got love like we were frats but we never had pay any money or get hazed to do. there were even younger heads who tried to associate with our group b/c of the love we received

. and we also got hate from frats with chicks and hate from people just b/c we were publicly liked or w/e

and in the end we was all just doing us not trying to be nothing other than who we really were. and there would be people sack riding me off the strength of my affiliation

most people in this world are so superficial and the superficiality is actually pretty sad.


end of the day though to each his own and i digress...but the major point is this thread is bound to go nowhere for the aforementioned reasons

Fam please believe you were not that cool in college and your crew was not either

You know we go way back fam. To the days of copping bred XI's and painting the midsole black.


Seriously people do join for the wrong reasons but can you further explain the gain some status elevation comment. I do give thanks to the creator of this topic. It will get people to think but at the end of the day we are entitled to our own opinions and interpretations.

Time to TURN MY APE ON!!!!!!

you a fool fam. why would you even post that when we aint go to college together

we went to HS together BTW for yall that want to know who this troll is

and the gain status or elevation = popularity. Prarie View education FTL

and you did grad chapter (

) so don't get personally offended. this would apply to undergrads

Dang. Can you at least get the spelling of my alma mater right? Prairie View. Guess you should've went to Texas A&M or North Harris.

The House of ALPHA. Yes that is my back......

Yes thats my arm...lol (old pic....the keyloids have resided now)

Nice tat Frat!

 

[sn00pee]

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

Originally Posted by sn00pee

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Some people on NT don't know how to read. I can't believe someone counteracted OP by saying "We're African Americans so we pay tribute to our culutre which was a pagan culture so you're wrong"

Denial isn't a just a river in that one country that practices pagan beliefs

If that's a shot at me, then try harder.

It's not a shot--it's an observation recognizing your inability...as evidenced by some of the stuff you proudly typed as though they were even relevant to the discussion at hand. And even when they are addressed outright, you type more nonsense simply because the logical response was contrary to what you stated...

It's not a shot at you bro, it's not...

...

thanks for dodging. Makes it easier

 

[superantigen]

Originally Posted by sn00pee

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

Originally Posted by sn00pee

Originally Posted by ScottHallWithAPick

Some people on NT don't know how to read. I can't believe someone counteracted OP by saying "We're African Americans so we pay tribute to our culutre which was a pagan culture so you're wrong"

Denial isn't a just a river in that one country that practices pagan beliefs

If that's a shot at me, then try harder.

It's not a shot--it's an observation recognizing your inability...as evidenced by some of the stuff you proudly typed as though they were even relevant to the discussion at hand. And even when they are addressed outright, you type more nonsense simply because the logical response was contrary to what you stated...

It's not a shot at you bro, it's not...

...

thanks for dodging. Makes it easier

Fluff- (figurative meaning) entertainment or writing perceived as trivial or superficial...

It's much more appropriate...had nothing to do with dodging...(as if)...

...

 

[cjdynasty]

Originally Posted by d3772000

Nice, Bruh Ive been thinking about getting a hit. But I dont want the "A" like all the other bruhs get. Thats hot right there pham!

 

[sn00pee]

Oh? So you're not dodging the fact that Black church is based on African traditions? or that Christianity is based on Pagan symbols/traditions in general?
You try to make it like its irrelevant when it isn't. You are clearly trying to win an argument that you, yourself, have invalidated.

Case in point:

The point is, these activities are not becoming of a christian or any religious person for that matter. So with that said, I just wanted to get the opinions of those Christians that are involved in Greek Life.
These activities, being the (nonexistent) "worship" of Pagan (and/or African) traditions and/or symbols, are found in the black church.Note: We shouldn't get the words "worship" and "use" confused. In Christianity ALONE, Paganism played a key role in its development.

there is a contradiction in being a Christian and being a member of Fraternity or Sorority.

If that's the case, being a black Christian is a contradiction. probably 90% of the African-American community belongs to a black church.
And like I said before, black churches are historically known for having African traditions practices in them. You cannot deny this.
And What are African traditions? Surely not christian beliefs!
So in turn, these black Christians, who denounce Black Greek societies, are being hypocritical.
Black Greek societies follow African traditions, and are VERY loosely based on Pagan traditions.
Black Christians follow African traditions, and are VERY loosely based on Pagan traditions.
Hell, Christianity--You guessed it!--is BASED ON PAGAN TRADITIONS. it USES Pagan symbols AND traditions.

So the whole worship of Christianity in itself is a big contradiction, in itself. Dont try to nitpick and say it aint so. If you're gonna say that being aChristian and being a member of a collegial (keyword, collegial) fraternity orSorority, whether it be white or black, is a contradiction, then you are basically saying Christianity itself is a contradiction. Go head and try to put upsome BS response, you can try to refute, but you already lost the battle, take the L and move on.

 

[phaze1123]

SuperAntigen wrote:

---

Originally Posted by phaze1123

SuperAntigen wrote:

---

NikeTalker23 wrote:

---

People dont join frats/sororities to worship greek or egyptian gods, and trust when I say no hardcore christian would join one.

Well that's definitely part of the issue--people don't join to worship greek or egyptian gods but do they KNOW that, that is essentially what they're doing...

Additionally, no hardcore christian might join but then what about the remaining "liberal" christians...

...

What are YOU talking about. This thread and the video are laughable. I am a member of Omerga Psi Phi Fraternity, Inc. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but without being a member of a greek organization how can you speek on the principles of the organizations. I didn't watch the whole video, but I heard enough after hearing the guy talk less than a minute. Speaking from my experiences with my organization, there is no association with the "worship of pagan and/or Egyptian gods". Actually it's quite the opposite. The foundation of Omega is in Christianity and Christian values. No offense to the OP, but you sound very ignorant to the whole concept of greek organization.
As to the guy in the video, in my college experience I found that the very religous students seemed to form their own sort of organization. In many ways it did not differ from greek organizations, if not more extreme in that if you weren't a part you are looked at as an outsider.
In closing, there are many members of greek organizations who go on to become spirital leader (i.e. pastors, bishops, decons, etc...) as well as community leaders. I have never heard somebody in the pulpit asking any members to bow to Omega, Alpha, Kappa... I could go on and on...bottom line, I DISAGREE with this thread, the video and OP.



What's good with the hostile undertones in your response...this was not meant to offend you, if it did, my bad...but please calm down...really...

So because you don't agree with what is being presented in the video, it's laughable...ok buddy...

. Furthermore, I've yet to offer an opinion on the matter so feel free to show me where I interjected my opinion on the principles of the organization. What I offered in the OG post of this thread was A SUMMARY OF THE POSTED VIDEO, for those who, for one reason or another, couldn't view it. As previously stated, I have yet to offer my opinion so chill with subliminal shots at my intelligence, word to "...you sound very ignorant"...--coming from a guy who "didn't watch the whole video" and heard "the guy talk [for] less than a minute...".

But enough of bickering, I'd rather prefer we had a "mature" discussion. Considering you watched less than a minute, I'm very sure you missed the part in the video where connections are made to the various pagan and egyptian gods--a connection that essentially shows the relationship between these lesser gods and the various greek organizations.

Phi beta Sigma -- associated with the egyptian god Horus
Alpha Kappa Alpha -- assocciated with the god Katesh, a semetic egyptian god worshipped in the egyptian "book of the dead"
Alpha Phi Alpha -- associated with the Sphinx
Delta Sigma Theta -- associated with roman goddess Minerva/ egyptian goddess Isis/ greek goddess Athena
Kappa Alpha Si -- associated with Thaw (sp)
Zetta Phi Beta -- associated with the egyptian god Bastet, the devouring lady and cat goddess (word to baby phat emblem)
Omega Si Phi (your fraternity) -- associated with Anubis, the jackel god word to why the symbol for Omegas is a dog...

This is all in addition to the fact that some of these gods/goddesses are presented on the shields/crests or the respective fraternity/sorority. I don't deny that members of the aforementioned frats/sorors are "good" people who do things to help the community. The real issue is whether these individuals have full knowledge of the roots of the chosen fraternities/sororities. That's the real issue here.

Realities and perceptions can differ greatly. The perception may be that these organizations are rooted in christianity, but the reality may reveal other wise.


...




I apologize if you perceived my response as being hostile. I read over my response again and I find it far from hostile. You may have gotten alittle offensive because I used the word ignorant. I by no means was firing subliminal shots at your intelligence, based on your responses I find you to be arather intelligent, well spoken guy. Ignorant is defined as lacking knowledge and do feel that you lack a certain level of knowledge in reference to Omega (Iam not speaking for any other organization).
In reference to Anubis and the dog, I was never taught, nor have I ever read anything about Anubis being associated with Omega. As for the dog, that is asymbol that became associated with the organization after it's conception. The connection actually came from a picture of one of the founders with hisdog...somebody saw the picture, used it and the association stuck. If you research any reputable/official history books you will not find any mention of dogs.I think being an actual member of the organization makes me more qualified to speak in the topic than the guy on the video. I do not want to come acrossexclusive, actually I'm quite the opposite...anybody who is interested and can/will live up to the principles of Omega, feel free to give it a shot. Thereare a lot of good bruhs out there and I am no way against there being more great Omega Men. It just bothers me when people like the guy in the video come upwith these conspiracy theories.
Again, speaking only for my own organization...
where are these gods you speak of?

You stated that you have yet to voice your opinion, just out of curiosity what is you stance on the topic?

Shouts to sneekerluvr!

 

[optimusprimeaphia]

Originally Posted by Chris5524

Originally Posted by bonafide hustla

Originally Posted by Chris5524

Originally Posted by bonafide hustla

this post will go nowhere.

Imagine if you grew up marveling something. got your @@* beat for X amount of weeks to be in said thing. wore the colors, became greatest of friends, had to learn the history while getting beat, did whatever and pledged your life to it...

regardless of what you say in life, almost anything is justifiable in some fashion. I ain't here to choose a side on the issue, but every greek person is going to be in denial



i will say that i think a lot of people join it for the wrong reason and most...not all...are people who were looking to gain some status elevation which is super lame in itself. then add in a bunch of other very lame factors and i just dont have an overall good view of frats. i linked up with my crew of homies in college b/c we all had similar interests and meshed well. we got love like we were frats but we never had pay any money or get hazed to do. there were even younger heads who tried to associate with our group b/c of the love we received

. and we also got hate from frats with chicks and hate from people just b/c we were publicly liked or w/e

and in the end we was all just doing us not trying to be nothing other than who we really were. and there would be people sack riding me off the strength of my affiliation

most people in this world are so superficial and the superficiality is actually pretty sad.


end of the day though to each his own and i digress...but the major point is this thread is bound to go nowhere for the aforementioned reasons

Fam please believe you were not that cool in college and your crew was not either

You know we go way back fam. To the days of copping bred XI's and painting the midsole black.


Seriously people do join for the wrong reasons but can you further explain the gain some status elevation comment. I do give thanks to the creator of this topic. It will get people to think but at the end of the day we are entitled to our own opinions and interpretations.

Time to TURN MY APE ON!!!!!!

you a fool fam. why would you even post that when we aint go to college together

we went to HS together BTW for yall that want to know who this troll is

and the gain status or elevation = popularity. Prarie View education FTL

and you did grad chapter (

) so don't get personally offended. this would apply to undergrads

Dang. Can you at least get the spelling of my alma mater right? Prairie View. Guess you should've went to Texas A&M or North Harris.

The House of ALPHA. Yes that is my back......

I'm an Alpha and all...um...


That's a lot to take in... I hope you paid for life membership yesterday...

 

[airant23]

YO!

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

AirAnt, MisterP...where y'all at...

Miss me with all that bull $+%# you stressin'... don't I look good?

Originally Posted by CJDynasty

Oh yea, cant leave without one of these............ 1 1 1 1 9

... 0000006!!!

What's good, bruh?

DF!!!

 

[i drink your milkshake]

I don't even wanna know why this thread jumped so many pages....

 

[jasmin]

really funny there's a thread about this because it's something that freaked me out after i joined. none of the other girls thought twice aboutanything really or recognized much- but being a history buff i noticed that our rituals were rooted in ancient greek/egyptian pagan traditions, etc. no, thereis no "worshipping" persay, but being Muslim, i felt uncomfortable during some of it anyway. the founders were very educated in all aspects ofancient history and therefore wanted to incorporate elements from different ancient cultures into the rituals, however, it felt wrong to me to even be presentfor anything remotely related to paganism. everything was on a very subtle level; all rituals were started with a recitation from the Bible (which i also feltuncomfortable with, being a Muslim). actually now that i think about it, i never felt like i fit in because i don't like the partying lifestyle and hadjoined because i liked the sorority's official philanthropy. i eventually became inactive for my last year of college.

 

[harlemkickdiva]

Originally Posted by jasmin

really funny there's a thread about this because it's something that freaked me out after i joined. none of the other girls thought twice about anything really or recognized much- but being a history buff i noticed that our rituals were rooted in ancient greek/egyptian pagan traditions, etc. no, there is no "worshipping" persay, but being Muslim, i felt uncomfortable during some of it anyway. the founders were very educated in all aspects of ancient history and therefore wanted to incorporate elements from different ancient cultures into the rituals, however, it felt wrong to me to even be present for anything remotely related to paganism. everything was on a very subtle level; all rituals were started with a recitation from the Bible (which i also felt uncomfortable with, being a Muslim). actually now that i think about it, i never felt like i fit in because i don't like the partying lifestyle and had joined because i liked the sorority's official philanthropy. i eventually became inactive for my last year of college.

I'm curious, which organization are u apart of?

 

[ramzs8906]

Originally Posted by HarlemKickDiva

Originally Posted by jasmin

really funny there's a thread about this because it's something that freaked me out after i joined. none of the other girls thought twice about anything really or recognized much- but being a history buff i noticed that our rituals were rooted in ancient greek/egyptian pagan traditions, etc. no, there is no "worshipping" persay, but being Muslim, i felt uncomfortable during some of it anyway. the founders were very educated in all aspects of ancient history and therefore wanted to incorporate elements from different ancient cultures into the rituals, however, it felt wrong to me to even be present for anything remotely related to paganism. everything was on a very subtle level; all rituals were started with a recitation from the Bible (which i also felt uncomfortable with, being a Muslim). actually now that i think about it, i never felt like i fit in because i don't like the partying lifestyle and had joined because i liked the sorority's official philanthropy. i eventually became inactive for my last year of college.

I'm curious, which organization are u apart of?

Me too

 

[Thats My Word]

Damn lambdas.... always trying to fight my friends.

 

[lifelessons]

Originally Posted by RamZs8906

HarlemKickDiva wrote:

---

jasmin wrote:

---

really funny there's a thread about this because it's something that freaked me out after i joined. none of the other girls thought twice about anything really or recognized much- but being a history buff i noticed that our rituals were rooted in ancient greek/egyptian pagan traditions, etc. no, there is no "worshipping" persay, but being Muslim, i felt uncomfortable during some of it anyway. the founders were very educated in all aspects of ancient history and therefore wanted to incorporate elements from different ancient cultures into the rituals, however, it felt wrong to me to even be present for anything remotely related to paganism. everything was on a very subtle level; all rituals were started with a recitation from the Bible (which i also felt uncomfortable with, being a Muslim). actually now that i think about it, i never felt like i fit in because i don't like the partying lifestyle and had joined because i liked the sorority's official philanthropy. i eventually became inactive for my last year of college.

I'm curious, which organization are u apart of?



Me too


me 3

 

[jasmin]

i'd rather not say, as i'm an alumnae but still technically a member. but it's national, well-known, and quite normal- just like any other nationalpanhellenic sorority. i assume all of the "old" sororities (dating from the 1800's) have these "cutesy" rituals.

edit: i realized that my first post sounded a little alarming, it's really not what it sounds like. if i had to pick something random tocompare it to, think approaching the oracle at delphi at her temple for advice. no outright mention of any gods, but still an ancient tradition, right? thatbeing said...i don't think the women that founded my sorority over 130 years ago were necessarily pagans- they were just very much into the ancient worldand wanted to form a secret society with secret rituals, with the purpose of furthering the advancement of women (they were the first women to go to college attheir university). they were christians that wanted to draw from thousand year old traditions of other societies to add to the exclusivity i guess. reminds meof the book the egypt game lol. could they have been closet pagans? perhaps...who knows?

like i mentioned, being a fairly religious person, i felt uncomfortable. at the same time i thought that minus the pagan undertones, it was a little cool to beprivy to some of the knowledge that has been passed down for so many years. the themes are nice- they're about being virtuous and such and seeking tofurther ourselves. which, in theory is nice, but sadly does not apply to many sororities nowadays.

 

[superantigen]

Originally Posted by jasmin

i'd rather not say, as i'm an alumnae but still technically a member. but it's national, well-known, and quite normal- just like any other national panhellenic sorority. i assume all of the "old" sororities (dating from the 1800's) have these "cutesy" rituals.

edit: i realized that my first post sounded a little alarming, it's really not what it sounds like. if i had to pick something random to compare it to, think [color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]approaching the oracle at delphi at her temple for advice[/color]. no outright mention of any gods, but still an ancient tradition, right? that being said...i don't think the women that founded my sorority over 130 years ago were necessarily pagans- they were just very much into the ancient world and wanted to form a secret society with secret rituals, with the purpose of furthering the advancement of women (they were the first women to go to college at their university). they were christians that wanted to draw from thousand year old traditions of other societies to add to the exclusivity i guess. reminds me of the book the egypt game lol. could they have been closet pagans? perhaps...who knows?

like i mentioned, being a fairly religious person, i felt uncomfortable. at the same time i thought that minus the pagan undertones, it was a little cool to be privy to some of the knowledge that has been passed down for so many years. the themes are nice- they're about being virtuous and such and seeking to further ourselves. which, in theory is nice, but sadly does not apply to many sororities nowadays.

Based on that, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you were (are) a Delta...

...

But I definitely agree with you that the founders of your organization were not pagans and had no villainous intentions in forming your organization. But theFACT is, they did incorporate pagan ideals into the organization--probably just to incorporate history--and there's nothing wrong with honoring historywhen it cones to education. But, and this is the question that I indirectly posed in the beginning of this thread-- "is it wise for Christians or Muslims(basically a follower of a modern day monotheistic religion) to associate with these organizations when portions of their foundations are rooted in these pagantraditions..."--which you answered...

...


...

 

[ramzs8906]

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

Originally Posted by jasmin

i'd rather not say, as i'm an alumnae but still technically a member. but it's national, well-known, and quite normal- just like any other national panhellenic sorority. i assume all of the "old" sororities (dating from the 1800's) have these "cutesy" rituals.

edit: i realized that my first post sounded a little alarming, it's really not what it sounds like. if i had to pick something random to compare it to, think approaching the oracle at delphi at her temple for advice. no outright mention of any gods, but still an ancient tradition, right? that being said...i don't think the women that founded my sorority over 130 years ago were necessarily pagans- they were just very much into the ancient world and wanted to form a secret society with secret rituals, with the purpose of furthering the advancement of women (they were the first women to go to college at their university). they were christians that wanted to draw from thousand year old traditions of other societies to add to the exclusivity i guess. reminds me of the book the egypt game lol. could they have been closet pagans? perhaps...who knows?

like i mentioned, being a fairly religious person, i felt uncomfortable. at the same time i thought that minus the pagan undertones, it was a little cool to be privy to some of the knowledge that has been passed down for so many years. the themes are nice- they're about being virtuous and such and seeking to further ourselves. which, in theory is nice, but sadly does not apply to many sororities nowadays.

Based on that, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you were (are) a Delta...

...

But I definitely agree with you that the founders of your organization were not pagans and had no villainous intentions in forming your organization. But the FACT is, they did incorporate pagan ideals into the organization--probably just to incorporate history--and there's nothing wrong with honoring history when it cones to education. But, and this is the question that I indirectly posed in the beginning of this thread-- "is it wise for Christians or Muslims (basically a follower of a modern day monotheistic religion) to associate with these organizations when portions of their foundations are rooted in these pagan traditions..."--which you answered...

...


...

Guessed wrong. Especially since Deltas (If you are referring to Delta Sigma Theta) Were founded 96 years, so basically with that being said, she isn'ttalking about any of the NPHC Frats (oldest becoming 103 later this year) and Sororities (oldest became 101 this year) aren't old enough.

With that said, I'll answer your question as you asked. Personally speaking (as someone on the outside looking in at the moment) I would say everything isleft up to personal choice and opinion. I would argue that there is nothing wrong with joining a GLO while you are a member or a particular faith, unless insome doctrine you can find that specifically (not by deducing due to "evidence") that says it is wrong.

As a Christian, I believe that God knows what is in your heart. And because of that, I believe God knows your reasons for joining the organization of choice,whether its a good reason or bad (and Im not even talking about the alleged worshipping of false idols). And while I know what I believe, and I know what feelsreal to me, I'm not going to sit here and act like I know for a fact which things we face in life that are not outlined in the Bible are right and whichare wrong. We can try to guess for ourselves what's right and what's wrong, but at the end of the day none of us knows for a fact. And because of that,if what the creator of the video says is true, I also believe my God is a forgiving God.

In short, I can't say whether or not joining a frat. or sorority is wise, but what I can say is it is not the most unwise decision people make. No one isexpected to always make the right decisions.

 

[cjdynasty]

Originally Posted by AirAnt23

YO!

What's good, bruh?

DF!!!

Bruh, chillin' laughin' at this thread. LOL ! What you been up to bruh? BTW, I have been making a killin' on RL B&T lately. My localMarshall's have been on point.

 

[superantigen]

Originally Posted by RamZs8906

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

Originally Posted by jasmin

i'd rather not say, as i'm an alumnae but still technically a member. but it's national, well-known, and quite normal- just like any other national panhellenic sorority. i assume all of the "old" sororities (dating from the 1800's) have these "cutesy" rituals.

edit: i realized that my first post sounded a little alarming, it's really not what it sounds like. if i had to pick something random to compare it to, think approaching the oracle at delphi at her temple for advice. no outright mention of any gods, but still an ancient tradition, right? that being said...i don't think the women that founded my sorority over 130 years ago were necessarily pagans- they were just very much into the ancient world and wanted to form a secret society with secret rituals, with the purpose of furthering the advancement of women (they were the first women to go to college at their university). they were christians that wanted to draw from thousand year old traditions of other societies to add to the exclusivity i guess. reminds me of the book the egypt game lol. could they have been closet pagans? perhaps...who knows?

like i mentioned, being a fairly religious person, i felt uncomfortable. at the same time i thought that minus the pagan undertones, it was a little cool to be privy to some of the knowledge that has been passed down for so many years. the themes are nice- they're about being virtuous and such and seeking to further ourselves. which, in theory is nice, but sadly does not apply to many sororities nowadays.

Based on that, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you were (are) a Delta...

...

But I definitely agree with you that the founders of your organization were not pagans and had no villainous intentions in forming your organization. But the FACT is, they did incorporate pagan ideals into the organization--probably just to incorporate history--and there's nothing wrong with honoring history when it cones to education. But, and this is the question that I indirectly posed in the beginning of this thread-- "is it wise for Christians or Muslims (basically a follower of a modern day monotheistic religion) to associate with these organizations when portions of their foundations are rooted in these pagan traditions..."--which you answered...

...


...

Guessed wrong. Especially since Deltas (If you are referring to Delta Sigma Theta) Were founded 96 years, so basically with that being said, she isn't talking about any of the NPHC Frats (oldest becoming 103 later this year) and Sororities (oldest became 101 this year) aren't old enough.

With that said, I'll answer your question as you asked. Personally speaking (as someone on the outside looking in at the moment) I would say everything is left up to personal choice and opinion. I would argue that there is nothing wrong with joining a GLO while you are a member or a particular faith, unless in some doctrine you can find that specifically (not by deducing due to "evidence") that says it is wrong.

As a Christian, I believe that God knows what is in your heart. And because of that, I believe God knows your reasons for joining the organization of choice, whether its a good reason or bad (and Im not even talking about the alleged worshipping of false idols). And while I know what I believe, and I know what feels real to me, I'm not going to sit here and act like I know for a fact which things we face in life that are not outlined in the Bible are right and which are wrong. We can try to guess for ourselves what's right and what's wrong, but at the end of the day none of us knows for a fact. And because of that, if what the creator of the video says is true, I also believe my God is a forgiving God.

In short, I can't say whether or not joining a frat. or sorority is wise, but what I can say is it is not the most unwise decision people make. No one is expected to always make the right decisions.

Good feedback...

Interestingly enough, you touched on some of the very same "issues" that I touched on in a Private Message to Phaze in response to his inquiry on mythoughts/opinions on the matter:

My stance on the issue--

I understand, or rather--I know that no one is perfect on this earth; and because of this, we're all occasionally susceptible to doing things that would fall under the blanket of "questionable". For example, I spent the good part of my afternoon traversing through 125th in Harlem on my way to Columbia University to check out an Art exhibit. Any one familiar with this part of Harlem knows that there are A LOT of people, from all walks of life, going about their business. Included among these people are what i'd like to call some "fine chicks". Every so often, when I see one of the "fine chicks", I can't help but think about what it be like to hook up with her. "Like damn, that chick was bad...". It's my instinct as a man--i'd like to think its biological. From the christian point of view, which I am, these thoughts would be deemed "questionable", but as hard as I try to think of other things, when I see a BADD female, occasionally, I'll have

thoughts. To me, this is an example of those "questionable" things that cannot be avoided simply because to do so would be to avoid your humanity--it's nature.

Now on the other hand, I feel that there are some "questionable" things that can be outright avoided, regardless of whether an individual is secular or religious. I say this because this class of "questionable" things stems from active decisions and choices. For example, stealing is a "questionable" thing that can be avoided because you actively make the decision. It's not biological, it's not hardwired--you essentially make the decision to do it or not and in making that decision, you actively control whether a "questionable" outcome will be produced or not.

Now using this frame of logic, joining an organization--any organization--is a decision that is actively made. In other words, you make a YES of NO resolve to join an organization and in doing so, you communicate a complete sense of awareness in the decison making process. So now the question at hand...

As a Christian--(and this thread, although open to general public, was specifically directed TOWARDS Christians)-- liberal of conservative, who has knowingly "promised" to observe, revere, and associate with one true God, is it wise to associate with organization(s) that clearly have affiliations with pagan gods (non-Christian God)--regardless of how archaic these affiliations are.

My opinion--To me, this is clearly one those "questionable" things that can be avoided. Regardless of how ancient the associations may be, between these organizations and these pagan gods (Non-Christian God), I would think that an observing Christian, whether liberal or conservative in his/her practice, would be wise to avoid such a "questionable" situation. One that can in fact, be avoided outright...

So as you said, at the end of the day, everything is left up to personal choice and opinion. This coincides with my idea that we are capable of making"active" decisions that we are well aware off. Additionally, while no one is expected to always make the right decisions (def. agree with you), thereis no excuse for making "questionable" concious decisions--especially when you are well aware of the elements that make said decision"questionable" to begin with.

Now from what I know, before individuals can join a GLO, they must be well versed in the history of the organization because that historical lesson is oftentimes, the foundation through which a sense of "brotherhood" and "sisterhood" is formed amongst the members. Also, I would like to believethat knowledge of these histories is the prerequisite for building one's legacy (broadly speaking). Now if an individual is indeed well versed in theaforementioned history, as they should be, then it is not even a question as to whether they know about those archaic associations with pagan gods an rituals;jasmin is clearly a perfect example of this; although based off what she said, herknowledge of these associations came about from being an overall "history buff". Point is, if anyone is serious about joining a GLO, they owe it tothemselves and the Organization to learn about the history of said organization they hope to be part off. Now in application to Christians...

As has already been established, an individual, regardless of religious beliefs or lack-there-of, owes it to themselves to KNOW about the history of theirorganization. In this vein, an insterested Christian or Muslim should rightfully KNOW these histories. Now if this is the case, then they would definitelyuncover the historical links to Pagan gods/rituals--of which jasmin did. Now then,the decision to join these GLO enters the realm of what I earlier referred to as "questionable" due to the fact that the interested party, the Muslimor Christian, is well aware of the "questionable" elements that are A PART of these organizations. So then as a Muslim or Christian, do you stilljoin.

And if you do join-- is it because you didn't care much for your Christian or Muslim religious doctrine, or is it rather because you were ignorant of yourGLOs history, which in of itself, is a slap to the face of the organization and a testament to how "serious" you are about pledging, or did you justjoin for all the wrong reasons like popularity, girls/boy, parties...because in all honesty, you could care less about your religious beliefs and/or the goalsand purposes of the GLO.

I don't argue that these organizations aren't doing good in the community, because they are. I argue whether it is necessary for you, as a religiousperson (Christian or Muslim) who is aware of the "questionable" elements, to join these GLO because you want do good by the community. Last time Ichecked, we were all capable of doing amazing things with or without being in a group--one that flirts with a "questionable" history at that...

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[jasmin]

Originally Posted by RamZs8906

Originally Posted by SuperAntigen

Originally Posted by jasmin

i'd rather not say, as i'm an alumnae but still technically a member. but it's national, well-known, and quite normal- just like any other national panhellenic sorority. i assume all of the "old" sororities (dating from the 1800's) have these "cutesy" rituals.

edit: i realized that my first post sounded a little alarming, it's really not what it sounds like. if i had to pick something random to compare it to, think approaching the oracle at delphi at her temple for advice. no outright mention of any gods, but still an ancient tradition, right? that being said...i don't think the women that founded my sorority over 130 years ago were necessarily pagans- they were just very much into the ancient world and wanted to form a secret society with secret rituals, with the purpose of furthering the advancement of women (they were the first women to go to college at their university). they were christians that wanted to draw from thousand year old traditions of other societies to add to the exclusivity i guess. reminds me of the book the egypt game lol. could they have been closet pagans? perhaps...who knows?

like i mentioned, being a fairly religious person, i felt uncomfortable. at the same time i thought that minus the pagan undertones, it was a little cool to be privy to some of the knowledge that has been passed down for so many years. the themes are nice- they're about being virtuous and such and seeking to further ourselves. which, in theory is nice, but sadly does not apply to many sororities nowadays.

Based on that, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you were (are) a Delta...

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But I definitely agree with you that the founders of your organization were not pagans and had no villainous intentions in forming your organization. But the FACT is, they did incorporate pagan ideals into the organization--probably just to incorporate history--and there's nothing wrong with honoring history when it cones to education. But, and this is the question that I indirectly posed in the beginning of this thread-- "is it wise for Christians or Muslims (basically a follower of a modern day monotheistic religion) to associate with these organizations when portions of their foundations are rooted in these pagan traditions..."--which you answered...

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Guessed wrong. Especially since Deltas (If you are referring to Delta Sigma Theta) Were founded 96 years, so basically with that being said, she isn't talking about any of the NPHC Frats (oldest becoming 103 later this year) and Sororities (oldest became 101 this year) aren't old enough.

that's not true...my sorority is an NPHC sorority, and was founded in the later half of the 19th century (over 125 years old). and it'snot delta, i just made up a random example to give people an idea haha. good guess though!