- 7,378
- 591
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2008
Calling all Greeks (Frat/Soror) x Christians. vol: You've got some 'splaining to do...
- Thread in 'General' Thread starter Started by superantigen,
- Start date
- 5,249
- 715
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2008
You join the organization for a life time.
im not even greek and i can say QFT.....its not just about popularity its about giving back tothe community excelling at academics and promoting brother/sisterhood amongst other things...come on bruh think
edit: fixed.
- 2,636
- 100
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2006
this is what i find funny. You join an organization for 4 years and suddenly you are compelled to get a hideous tattoo down the side of your back. Are you really that serious about your national organization? Are your rituals and history so important to you that you want to be branded like that?Originally Posted by DwyaneWadeOG
When its comes to NPHC Organizations (Like the one he is a part of) the membership is supposed to be lifetime... which from the type of frat youdescribed with the mansion and living with 85 other guys isn't the same as a NPHC frat... not any I've seen at least.
antonlavey
Banned
- 28,211
- 847
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2008
A lot of denial in this thread
- 1,328
- 10
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2005
- 8,025
- 216
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2001
From the outside looking in, it's hard to understand. From the inside looking out, it's hard to explain.Originally Posted by AntonLaVey
A lot of denial in this thread
We could go all day...answering your questions, arguing back and forth. It won't change anything.
- 5,176
- 10
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2008
one thing i can say is NPHC frats/sorors usually be w/ it till death....i've never seen other frats/sor rep their org later in life but with NPHC org i seeit all the time.....
antonlavey
Banned
- 28,211
- 847
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2008
Originally Posted by MisterP0315
From the outside looking in, it's hard to understand. From the inside looking out, it's hard to explain.Originally Posted by AntonLaVey
A lot of denial in this thread
We could go all day...answering your questions, arguing back and forth. It won't change anything.
I don't believe in God by any means but I understand total devotion to Jesus is one of the basic tenets of Christianity. I don't think it's thatserious tho. People (Christians) sin and go against the "word of God" all the time. In the large scheme of things, devoting yourself to a fraternityfraught with "pagan" themes isn't the worst thing a Christian can do/has done.
- 8,025
- 216
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2001
K.
- 2,082
- 270
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2005
^ Exactally MisterP I agree with your earlier posts
I say there are 3 types of greeks
The one who joined who doesnt let the orginization make them. They put their imprint in the orginization
The ones who want to live through the organizations legacy and just live through the individual stereo types
And the ones who feel like they are in it for the wrong reason and denounce their letters
To me personally. Its not that big a deal, it has its pros and cons. In relation to OP's post, the symbols are rooted to ancient Egyptian gods andgoddesses but if you do a survey now and ask the average Greek, do you honestly think that they will know all of that biased on a lot of them being bought inin different fashion. At the end of the day all of my Sigma bros and the majority of other NPHC Greeks out there and on NT are members of a Social Collegeorganization. We are members of it for a life time, but its up to the individual whether or not they want to provide to the business aspect of the organizationafter undergrad.
I say there are 3 types of greeks
The one who joined who doesnt let the orginization make them. They put their imprint in the orginization
The ones who want to live through the organizations legacy and just live through the individual stereo types
And the ones who feel like they are in it for the wrong reason and denounce their letters
To me personally. Its not that big a deal, it has its pros and cons. In relation to OP's post, the symbols are rooted to ancient Egyptian gods andgoddesses but if you do a survey now and ask the average Greek, do you honestly think that they will know all of that biased on a lot of them being bought inin different fashion. At the end of the day all of my Sigma bros and the majority of other NPHC Greeks out there and on NT are members of a Social Collegeorganization. We are members of it for a life time, but its up to the individual whether or not they want to provide to the business aspect of the organizationafter undergrad.
tmukg21
Banned
- 4,017
- 10
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2008
Originally Posted by Elocin023
Never once did he say it was right or wrong. Nor is he judging. He is simply asking how Christians can justify being in a fraternity or sorority being that they go against Christian beliefs/morals/practices..etc.
And like it has been said before, a lot of people in here are not even answering the question.
has this been addressed
I see what the OP is saying, but its really not that deep imo
- 8,148
- 5,320
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2007
You did not catch the significant of the names I said. All of those men are or were reknowned preachers. I pointed out Marvin Sapp because as someone who is currently preaching, for him to join a greek fraternity that "worships pagan gods" as these examples you've been giving says, then what exactly are you getting at?
With that said, a couple of points I want to make clear: ALL Religions at one point or another were considered a cult by definition.
And 2, I guess this is a viable topic, but at the end of the day, who are any of the people chiming in saying this is negative to judge. From my understanding as a Christian (who makes mistakes, I am nowhere near close to a perfect Christian) Christian know that there is only ONE entity with the right to judge, and the last I checked, he doesn't have a Niketalk Screen name.
So what if they individuals are in fact renowned preachers. Are you suggesting that, this then automatically implies that these greek organizations are benignin origin--because renowned preachers are members. Last time I check, preachers were as susceptible to making mistakes like you and I. Last time I checked, afew of these preachers were under investigation for molesting little children. Point is, preachers are NOT holy. They are just like you and I and many aresusceptible to the same temptations that you and I are susceptible to. MLK and these "reknowned" preachers, as you so put it, have done good in thecommunity--but they are not HOLY and not the individuals you should be following from a spiritual standpoint...
Once again, I feel like so many of you are constrained in your interpretation of the term "worship" and that's why you cannot conceptualize thepoint i'm trying to explore, and offer what I think is a rational debate, at the very least.
I too believe that there is ONE being who will pass a final judgement---it's my Christian believe. I don't think I've been judgemental in my posts.If you read my OG post, I was merely asking for thoughts on the matter. It's a very interesting topic/issue and I figured sharing ideas and opinion on itwould be interesting. Instead, people watched the video, or maybe they didn't, and automatically assume that I have a DEFINITE OPINION and STANCE on theissue simply because I'm the OP of the thread. And then you also have those who are members of therse Greek Organizations who automatically go into attackmode because they feel insulted--comonnn.
Just because GOD doesn't have a SN does not mean that we should restrict ourselves from talking about things like this. I mean, by your logic, it would bebest if we didn't talk about anything because doing so would be nothing but a waste of time considering only GOD has the final word. Clearly, that logic issilly...
you're essentially overreaching. It's just not that serious. Just like our (if your black) ancestors took christianity and shaped it to African traditions (look at any black church) the same thing has been done to fraternities. Are you gonna stop singing and dancing at your church now because doing that would be "paying homage" to African traditional religions. You're trying to nitpick something, and basically you're whole argument will fall apart because Christianity in the African American culture is HEAVILY based on African traditions. These black Christians putting down fraternaties need to take a real hard look in the mirror and study the foundation of Christianity in the African-American culture.
1. Singing and dancing in African American churches has nothing to do with "paying homage" to ancestral African traditional religions...I can'teven believe that you made such as association...
2. How is Christianity as it pertains to African American culture "HEAVILY" based on ancestral African tradition...please enlighten me.
3. I honestly don't even know where you're even going anymore, word to-- "These black Christians putting down fraternaties need to take a realhard look in the mirror and study the foundation of Christianity in the African-American culture"
Regardless, here's something for you to muse about. Black Greek organizations did not start out with the intention of forming some relationship toancestral African traditions. These connections that were made with African traditions were merely a byproduct, and secondarily established, after theorganizations were formed.
I say this because, remember, black greek organizations were first established in response to racial alienation by white greek organizations. So imagine if welived in a Parallel universe where this racial alienation had not occured. Essentially, imagine if white greek organizations had welcomed blacks with open armsand allowed them to joing their ranks--do you think these newly inducted black greeks would care about establishing some connection to their ancestral africantradition--NO.
If blacks were accepted into the fold of White Greek organizations, they would be pledging to anglo-saxon deities and upholding anglo-saxon paganisticideals--not african ideals. So with that said, don't make the mistake of assuming that one of the original goals of black greek organizations was toestablish some relationship to old African ideals. This was only a secondary response, and byproduct of being excluded from White greek organizations.
Your definition of worship is way too broad. Worship = honoring or given someone or something recognition. That means I was worshiped at my awards ceremony for AMJUR'ing my Torts class.You my dude are clearly reaching. Does it really mean that the brothers of Alpha Phi Alpha worship the Sphinx by having it on our crest? Well if by just having a Sphinx on our crest=worship, then what about the pyramid on the back of a dollar bill? Are Americans worshiping the Egyptians by participating in commerce and spending dollars? Please.
Look up the definition of "worshiping" if you don't believe me. Like I've previously stated, too many of you have a fixed andrigid interpretation of what "worship" is. This is why you cannot see where I'm coming from. Heck, worshiping something and honoring somethingare technically the same. It's just that society has appropriated the use of "worship" for extreme examples of honor. And you know what theextreme example of worshiping is--Idolizing. These three forms of showing reverance are linked.
It's interesting to know that I'm reaching when I'm only regurtitating what I've seen, as stated by ex-greeks themselves. Not to mention, theevidence is right there from the crest, to the pledging. How am I reaching.
You're not overtly worshipping the Sphinx but by having it in your crest, by pledging and swearing to the crest, do believe that you're honoring andthus, worshipping the Sphinx--which is the symbolic, and i reiterate, the SYMBOLIC figure for you particular organization.
As for the pyramid and the eye of Horus on the back of the dollar bill--ummm, I hope you know that people worship money. This is not even a point ofdiscussion. That's a definite fact. People worship money.
No one is paying homage to anything. Nobody is kneeling to any Sphinx and saying prayers. Yall dudes are ignorant to Black Greek Fraternities and Sororities. What you guys are essentially saying is that it is improper for a Black Christian to be part of any organization that has Egyptian or of Egyptian tradition associated with because Egyptian tradition is essentially pagan.
And you just validated my earlier point of having a fixed interpretation of the term "worship". You don't have to "[kneel] to any Sphinx and[say] prayers [to it]" for it to be considered worship. Worship is bigger than than. No one is saying that it's improper for Black Christians to bepart of organizations that have associations to Egyptian culture. It's a whole 'nother ball game, however, when you pledge to these organizations andswear to them--especially if they are rooted in non christian gods and deities. That's when it becomes an issue.
I think this is read into a bit too much...Frat/Soror members don't join to praise "other" gods. The "gods" act more as symbols than anything else. This is like saying I'm violating the first commandment because I like the Chicago Bulls?? I'm not "praising" the Bulls symbol, that's just the logo/brand/image that is associated with the team. Just like Delta Theta Sigma's symbol is the elephant.
You just nullified your whole argument...because symbols have meanings and serve a purpose...
Yes there are some elements involved, maybe a little thievery and such, but essentially it has been transformed into something new, completely separate from where it "began" so-to-speak.
Umm you really believe that...
I hope you're aware of Greek TRADITION. Which is basically transmission of customs and beliefs to subsequent generations. In other words, new chapters ofgreek organizations will always be associated, rooted, and connected to the original ideals of the organization. Thus, there is NO Transformation to be hadwhen the old serves as the blueprint for the new.
look...
according to christianity the pledging of allegiance to a fraternity, that fraternity's glorifying of "false" gods and ideologies, and the ideals behind the founding and traditions a lot of those fraternities hold is blatantly unchristian. people are in here trying to argue "theyre just symbols and don't really mean anything" but how foolish does that sound? so you don't think there was ANYYYY meaning behind the objects chosen for your crests, the traditions and rituals practiced, and the overall mindset of "fraternity?" The very fact that they're called "Greeks" is a nod to the old Greek fraternities of ancient times. do yourselves a favor and research what THOSE were about. It's one thing if you're fully aware what membership in a fraternity entails and ignore it, but a lot of you are just in here playing dumb, and it's because I think you realize what the op is getting at and it hit home and is probably a little unsettling.
it's even more hilarious to hear all of you claim that these frats aren't insidious because they're just paying homage to African traditions. In most if not all African countries fraternities are considered cults and in a lot of places are even gangs! They're not all as harmless there as they are here and there IS a strong tie in to pagan ritual and witchcraft there.
YESSSSS...somebody get's what I'm trying to say...
And again Super Antigen I ask Who are you to judge? Its like you're pointing out all of these things, and yet if I asked you one of the following questions:
Do you have any tattoos?
Do you listen to secular music?
Do you have your ear(s) peirced?
You would answer the question mostly likely in a way to defend your decision. Whether its right or wrong... and since no one (including the people who made those videos, you or anyone else saying its wrong) has definitive proof whether or not joining a greek org. is right or wrong, I say to you and them GO SIT DOWN SOMEWHERE AND QUIT JUDGING!
Why are you so mad...relax man, relaxxxx.
How am I judging him. Is it because I typed WOWWWWW (because I've never seen a frat tat that big before...)...or is because I said this was another level of the issue--because itis when you realize that his tat is a form of BRANDING and thats pertinent to the discussion at hand as it relates to Christians...
You're clearly wayyy to mad to even try and contribute. You should be the one having a seat man...
Never once did he say it was right or wrong. Nor is he judging. He is simply asking how Christians can justify being in a fraternity or sorority being that they go against Christian beliefs/morals/practices..etc.
And like it has been said before, a lot of people in here are not even answering the question.
Exactly...people not even talking about the issue at hand because they feeling salty for no damn reason...
Talking 'bout, go sit down...
...
- 2,082
- 270
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2005
Maybe we should find a Sg rho and find outOriginally Posted by Robby Valentino
I saw this vid...well sequence of vids.
Didn't bother to make a thread cause...I know no one would just talk...they instead are responding to non greeks with a highly dismissive tone instead of even discussing it....
When someone can tell me what's ok about there being a Skull on the Sg Rho crest...I'll go away
But I'mma just chill...someone is gonna say some real disrespectful !*$! and try to accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about (as usually goes when you criticize something people deeply believe in)
Theres obviously some meaning of it but from the outside looking in you will never know.....
sn00pee
Supporter
- 3,638
- 784
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2003
Its not that serious. Like seriously, African traditional religions are gangs and cults now?!?! Cmon man!
And like someone mentioned earlier, almost ALL Christian holidays are based on PAGAN traditions!
These fraternities are not "glorifying" any other gods or praying to any other religions.
You're nitpicking heavily. So the whole US collegial fraternity is some big cult trying to get people to convert now huh?
They use these greek letters to identify themselves. It has not damn relevance to religion whatsoever.
If a christian thinks they're doing god wrong by participating in a fraternity, then they're stupid, plain and simple.
God forbid that person wears Nike...
- 2,082
- 270
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2005
God forbid that person wears Nike...
Now thats what im talking about QFT!!!
How dare we wear or some people have brand loyality to 'the goddess of victory'
At the end of the day point blank....nothing should be put above the LORD
- 2,636
- 100
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2006
Now thats what im talking about QFT!!!
How dare we wear or some people have brand loyality to 'the goddess of victory'
At the end of the day point blank....nothing should be put above the LORD
/thread
- 8,148
- 5,320
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2007
Now thats what im talking about QFT!!!
How dare we wear or some people have brand loyality to 'the goddess of victory'
At the end of the day point blank....nothing should be put above the LORD
But see, there's a huge difference between wearing Nike and being in a greek organization.
When you purchase a Nike product, you don't PLEDGE your loyalty to NIKE and you don't take an OATH to observe and uphold the ideals of NIKE. Hell, youcan go purchase a pair of Reeboks the next day because you never promised to devote yourself to NIKE. In this regard, your Christianity--which says you'llworship/honor God and God alone-- is never compromised because your loyalty still remains with God.
This is the difference...
...
sn00pee
Supporter
- 3,638
- 784
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2003
But see, there's a huge difference between wearing Nike and being in a greek organization.
When you purchase a Nike product, you don't PLEDGE your loyalty to NIKE and you don't take an OATH to observe and uphold the ideals of NIKE. Hell, you can go purchase a pair of Reeboks the next day because you never promised to devote yourself to NIKE. In this regard, your Christianity--which says you'll worship/honor God and God alone-- is never compromised because your loyalty still remains with God.
This is the difference...
...
please, you're on a niketalk message board talkin about you dont pledge your loyalty to Nike.
No one in a greek fraternity pledges their loyalty to other gods. You're reaching like hell.
dacomeup
Supporter
- 25,321
- 34,707
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2006
Originally Posted by SlimK4
^^ I wanna know about the status elevation also......because for all i know....if you were a LAME/ Simp.....you still gonna be a LAME dude.....just with letters on
QFT.
- 12,520
- 925
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2009
I mean when you pledge allegiance to the flag or America you are being un-christian right? At the end of the day if you believe in the christian stuff Im sureyou believe that God or Jesus knows your heart and a lot of these dudes are not worshiping the gods on purpose.
sn00pee
Supporter
- 3,638
- 784
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2003
[color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]1. Singing and dancing in African American churches has nothing to do with "paying homage" to ancestral African traditional religions...I can't even believe that you made such as association...[/color]
[color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]2. How is Christianity as it pertains to African American culture "HEAVILY" based on ancestral African tradition...please enlighten me.[/color]
[color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]3. I honestly don't even know where you're even going anymore, word to-- "These black Christians putting down fraternaties need to take a real hard look in the mirror and study the foundation of Christianity in the African-American culture"[/color]
WHAT? How can you seriously sit here and type something like this. Do you seriously know the history between African-Americans and Christianity?
- 8,148
- 5,320
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2007
please, you're on a niketalk message board talkin about you dont pledge your loyalty to Nike.
No one in a greek fraternity pledges their loyalty to other gods. You're reaching like hell.
See now being completely facile. Either because you have nothing better to say, or you realize that what I stated was the truth and you just don't want toadmit to it.
Please try your best to explain to me how being on Niketalk is proof of my allegiance to Nike. I'm sure Dirty, Meth, Nelson, Ska would agree that...
Furthermore, and as previously alluded to, when was the last time that you purchases a Nike product and were made to PLEDGE and take an OATH to uphold theideals and beliefs of Nike. When...I'll wait...
Greeks PLEDGE themselves to their organization and take an OATH to uphold its ideals and beliefs. You stated yourself that there are correlations between theseorganizations and pagan rituals and symbols ("lesser" gods). These pagan rituals and symbols (gods) are part of the organization. So if an individualis PLEDGING and taking an OATH to uphold and observe these organizations, is that not tantamount to PLEDGING and taking an OATH to uphold and observe theelements (pagan rituals and symbols--gods--) of which the organization is comprised of.
I'm pretty sure all you'll have to say in defense however is-- "you're reaching"...because that's all you've been saying
...
sn00pee
Supporter
- 3,638
- 784
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2003
Take a look at all the greek organizations, in any of there OATHS does it once say "worship pegasus" or anything to that matter? NO.
Christianity is TRIFLED with PAGAN symbolism, so that just makes your entire argument null.
let me make it real big and clear for you, you see that up there? By your reasoning, Christianity is worshiping Paganism.
You're reaching.
[/thread]
- 2,082
- 270
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2005
See now being completely facile. Either because you have nothing better to say, or you realize that what I stated was the truth and you just don't want to admit to it.
Please try your best to explain to me how being on Niketalk is proof of my allegiance to Nike. I'm sure Dirty, Meth, Nelson, Ska would agree that...
Furthermore, and as previously alluded to, when was the last time that you purchases a Nike product and were made to PLEDGE and take an OATH to uphold the ideals and beliefs of Nike. When...I'll wait...
Greeks PLEDGE themselves to their organization and take an OATH to uphold its ideals and beliefs. You stated yourself that there are correlations between these organizations and pagan rituals and symbols ("lesser" gods). These pagan rituals and symbols (gods) are part of the organization. So if an individual is PLEDGING and taking an OATH to uphold and observe these organizations, is that not tantamount to PLEDGING and taking an OATH to uphold and observe the elements (pagan rituals and symbols--gods--) of which the organization is comprised of.
I'm pretty sure all you'll have to say in defense however is-- "you're reaching"...because that's all you've been saying
...
Okay you win. The convo is two sided.
There are Pagan symbols in the greek organizations.
There are links to ancient gods
There are chants involved. But we do not completely know their true orgins.....Some say African roots, some say pegan
So if it means that we pledged to something that has has the pegan roots....it is what it is
Some people joined.
Some people didnt join.
At the end of the day. The Lord will have the final say who was right or who was wrong in the whole matter.
- 8,148
- 5,320
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2007
That's what's so funny about this whole thing because technically, I would suppose that you are. But one argument that I've heard is the fact that,Christians don't make too much of an issue when it comes to pledging to the flag because it's "...one nation, UNDER GOD, indivisible, with libertyand justice...". Furthermore, the U.S is a Christian republic. There may be religious toleration in this country but realize that the U.S is a Christiannation. So essentially, at the end of the day, I think pledging to the flag becomes a non-issue because Christians are essentially pledging themselves to aChristian State.
Now of course, there are Atheist and there have been cases where they've sued about an issue such because of the use of God as a symbol for the nation.Which is in the same vein as this whole greek organization.
...