aepps20
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***Official Political Discussion Thread***
- Thread in 'General' Thread starter Started by rico x hood,
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Not to mention that when/if they **** up the process (misplace your paperwork, don't pick up the ****ing application you mailed to their USPS PO Box), it's on YOU to know and correct that before the application deadline or your money is gone and your application denied. Then, the law says you have to drop everything you were doing here, go back to your country, and start the multi-year long immigration process from scratch. I don't mind the fees (I can't dictate what they are) or the waiting time, but the immigration laws could be a little more reasonable.
RustyShackleford
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1st
Let us start with you "rule of law" argument as to why it is so reasonable to this man to face further punishment. You say you have read the story, well I want to draw our attention to this part...
So officials supposedly strong arm false statement from the ex-wife, we have no third part investigation, yet that previous statement was used as grounds to deny him another green card, and supposedly. Where is the outrage that this man is being screwed over because of this.
And since he is married to a citizen, and had citizen kids, given the laws now he probably couldn't get status through them because of his pending status. So his current wife could not file for him, his kids could file for him, if not for his previous issues. Issues that stem from authorities getting a false statement. And you don't see how it is callous to just look at a man being ripped from his friends and family under these circumstances.
Sorry but I sure do.
Especially when you throw in this cherry on top.....
I have been through the immigration system to get a green card and being naturalized. It was a mess both times. I have worked in a law firm dealing with immigration issues. To act or think like immigration authorities follow some strict procedure is laughable. There is a ton of grey area. People that have legit claims to citizenship face threats of deportation too because of technicalities.
This man has probably spent thousands of dollars and hours of time. Fine him if you want, but let him stay and be done with it.
Now onto the more general of immigration because I feel a lot is left out of the discussion....
2nd
Your comment about what is reasonable just doesn't fly with me. For multiple reasons. Let us put the moral and racial argument aside. Let us discuss the economics of "reason."
-Is reasonable to deport over 11 million people from the country. Deportation that will not only be expensive but also have tons of adverse economic outcomes. We need the bodies to drive economic growth. Subtracting all those people is going to hurt in the long run. So when the economy is so structurally weak, we are spending a ton funding the wealthy, interest rates increasing, how is it reasonable to drive us even closer to a recession.
Not only that, we create a labor supply boom in places like Mexico, driving down wages, and making it even more appealing for manufacturers. And America's better brace for paying more for their food, and construction projects. I don't mind that much, since maybe it will wake people up to how immigrants are used as a weapon by the wealthy, but everyone even the so-called "reasonable folk" needs to wake up to the consequences of certain policies, and stop thinking all proposals hold equal validity.
-Is it reasonable to have all these parent-less children around, and now have to pay to build up the foster-care system to take care of them. I mean they are citizens, they are America's responsibility if they stay. And if they don't get adequate care, well be ready to face the economic and social consequences of that
-And if those kids leave, is it then reasonable to expect the country to go through the pain of re-assimilating them when they do return.
3rd
Back to the morality of the situation and what is reasonable. To me, that is not a hard question. Only people that what excuses for being heartless think they are. Like was it fair for white people to not want black people in front of the bus, or at the same lunch counter, or using the same bathroom, or attending the same universities, or living in the same neighborhoods?
Was it hard to tell men that women had the right not vote? Or tell people that same sex couple have the right to marry.
The answers to those question were always easy, yet moderates acted like they were so hard to answer or even ask. So hard to tell one group of people they were wrong, and get over it. Why must everything be looked at like a zero-sum game? That showing one group mercy or empathy somehow hurts others. People focus to much on punishment and not enough on fixing the underlying systemic forces and cause unwanted outcomes. I don't know why reasonable folk can't stop trying to figure out the adequate punishment for undocumented citizens in the country, just let it go, and work on fixing the forces that attracted them in the first place and still attract more of them to come.
People's bigotry and entitlement always have be considered when it comes to doing someone that it not only morally right but economically right. That we can't just institute good policy because of the people that are so caught up on punishment and their warped way of looking at what is "right"
4th
This narrative that immigrants, excuse me, impoverished South American immigrants (Because we seem to have less of a problem with the affluent Asian and white immigrants overstaying visas) just come to live off of the government, live off of the money of taxpayers. Most come for jobs, they lack opportunity in their country and often work to send money back home. They keep coming because American companies keep hiring them. Affluent people love to complain about these Hispanic leeches, but they continually employ them directly and indirectly. Hire them to work our farms, to do our landscaping, to watch our kids, and work in restaurants. If we wanted less of them to come, why don't clamp down on business and people that hire them? Let ICE come down hard on businesses, not the people.
Because if people want to play the "rules are rules" card, I sure hope that everything they consume is undocumented immigrant labor free. From the meal they eat at that Mom and Pop Chinese restaurant, to the bridge you drive over to go to work because that bridge was probably built by subcontracting down, and down, and down until they became small enough so not get the attention of the FEDS. If rules are rules, and I hope everyone is damn principled.
Nope, instead, we create these incentives for poor folk to come, hire them when they get here, then get upset at them for making a home. When ICE comes for them like they are Gestapo, we shrug and say "well rules are rules." To me, that speaks to greater hypocrisy in this country; one that goes beyond the white nationalist right.
Not only that, we ignore that America played a hand in making many of the region worst off economically, and politically unstable. Like how many dictators did we support, "rebels" we funneled guns too, governments we strong-armed for their resources, and other large nations we convince to drop trade protections for smaller ones? Do "reasonable people" ever stop and think America might have some responsibility in clean up messes they helped create, and assisting the victims of those messes.
I hear all this talk or border security. But most undocumented immigrants are overstaying visas; they are flying in. So why is there not a push to clamp down on holiday visas? Oh, I suppose because they don't want to hurt the American tourism industry. But instead a reasonable immigration debate is about to be had, and people are gonna prioritize border security, and the middle ground is cutting down on "diversity" in immigration
5th
People will apply for legal status to work, to go to school, to get help if they need it. If we were a leftist country, they would need to be documented to participate in jobs programs, or get health insurance, and so on. If people are so concerned with specific immigrants groups working then that can be solved by giving them status (unbound to an employer) having stronger labor laws, and pushing jobs programs. Make the process less painful and cheaper. If the incentives are right, people will act accordingly.
Before 1965, we hardly had these discussions. When quotas keep the face of the immigrant (undocumented or otherwise) white, America didn't ponder these things like how much immigrants were going to take from the economy. The second that changed, and the face of the foreign immigrant became brown, this diet Camp of Saints shtick started.
You decry that the center in American is now conservative. So I ask, why argue immigration from the center. It most assuredly puts us on the right of the issue. And when the right has been so wrong on this issue for so long, so why should I respect such arguments that inherently argue finding a bad middle ground, give into white nationalism in some ways, that does not address underlying issues, that treats people as "others", and gets hung up on punishment.
That is not a reasonable request.
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RustyShackleford
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I am much harder on the American immigration system because they toyed with me and my family a lot. They denied my sister and I twice for green cards on technicalities. Made me wait nearly 6 years of my damn naturalization certificate
It is not only the immigration laws, but the application of them at an administrative level. It is really ran like a underfunded DMV.
My favorite issue I had with them is after I finally get my certificate, and I get my first passport, I thought both was stolen (the passport was, the certificate my mom actually took for same keeping and didn't tell me).
I call them up and I tell them the issue they ask me if I have a photocopy of either. I say nah I didn't photocopy my passport and the certificate says "don't photocopy" on it. Their response: this would be easier if you had a photocopy of the certificate.
I tell them that would have been technically illegal, their response is "yeah but, it would have helped". Then they tell me I gonna come in for an interview. Not in DC, or Baltimore, nahhhhh, four hours away in NYC. You dunno how many times I had to hold back going off on those people. 
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...So
formerly beyondmeasure
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Immigrants have fought for well over a decade to legalize their status in this country, paying taxes and being law abiding citizens but this POS Trump feeding the extreme xenophobia of this country labeling All brown immigrants as terrorists...now these people with spouses and children are terrified to go through the process because chances are if their skin isn’t white and they come from a Latin nation, this country will kick them out and split their families, no point in risking it.
Ironically enough Melanias parents benefitted from chain migration...
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on your first point i definitely concede that situation was fairly inconsiderate, though i also recall he did leave the the us to live in another country for some time which may also changed how his greencard circumstance was viewed? not really familiar with what that status means if you leave the country for an extended time?
because this country (and perhaps others?) seemingly kinda leave immigration to be subjectively enforced, in the same way that one gets a different boss who is not completely aware of, disregards, or has a completely different goal/priority than their immediate predecessor, the opportunity is likely that people will evaluated depending on whoever is the boss; the question as pertains to how he was eventually deported is, though obviously done inconveniently (tho that's maybe an understatement), was it done wrongly? should ice be obligated to make it convenient?
...but as general approach, i just think there should be some penalty levied to those know there are here illegally, it also makes sense to me to similarly penalize businesses that use undocumented laborers...
as to your second point i actually don't think it is reasonable to try to round up undocumented immigrants and/or deport them provided they are working or otherwise solidly rooted here, but it does seem reasonable, to me, that they would pay some prorated fine or have to perform some community service that was maybe even related to integrating immigrants into communities or helping other immigrants...
the third argument, if one starts from the assumption that the law is more or less just (given the idea that 'just' is actually broadly defined & applied), i don't see the problem with saying if a person does not arrive in this country through the proper process or overstays their visa, deportation is a possible consequence barring some predefined circumstance(s).
the relationship(s) this country had with women's suffrage, racism, sexism, same-sex relationships were not just, and i guess one might say it is easier to hold that position now that people have fought to make it so & the mores have changed, but i do think a country's stance on immigration is subject to the times and not an absolute in the same way as those things.
of course, immigrants should be treated with the all dignity due any human being but countries may (and do) decide to be more lax, limit, or as restrict as they deem fit, in terms of who they allow within their borders and granted such policy is kinda rife with opportunities to discriminate on many basis, that would be where i'd hope a consensus could be reached about what would be generally requisite for emigrants of other countries seeking to immigrate to the states.
if it was decided today that every undocumented person was going to be granted a legal status that worked for them individually (seasonal/temp worker, citizenship, etc.) wouldn't any policy going forward include some penalty that would include deportation for newly arrived undocumented immigrants? or is your stance that everyone that arrives to this (or any) country without following the 'proper' process be granted a status?
on the fourth thing, as i said i'm the product of an immigrant family (which could be said about everyone who isn't native american or who were forcibly brought here, otherwise it is just a matter of degree), i've given money to pay for visas to see folk come over and have to put in work however they can get it not only to support the life they want to build here but also in terms of remittances sent home to support folk there as well, so i am not of the thinking that people come here to take advantage of anything other than the greater opportunities this country has than the countries they come from, we're all just people trying to get by...
you are right to point out the hypocrisy of a system that really only penalizes the disadvantaged side of the equation, more should be done to make businesses accountable and also agree that border security is somewhat akin to the tsa at the airport; a nominal display meant to makes people feel secure rather than actually being really required...by pointing the geopolitical factors, is it your position that america should accept emigrants from those affected countries without exception?
to your last thought, i got to say i'm not all that aware of what the positions of either side are in detail, i just so happen to fall into what you (or perhaps the general consensus as well) consider the center on this, and i don't think myself that ideological or principled about it...i'd agree that the process of obtaining should be better/clearer, maybe even easier & cheaper; still though i happen to think that as a general rule there should be a penalty for undocumented immigration/overstayed visas that includes the possibility of deportation, that isn't to say i don't hope that something would be figured out that basically offer amnesty for those already here that were basically good citizens...
deportation doesn't even appear feasible in the short term given the numbers and could be prohibitive in many of the ways you have noted, that said it seems the reality is that most vocal side of this argument tends to be those against reform that is "reasonable," they want the tsa like show of a border wall and they are/have been loud enough about it that it hasn't negatively impacted conservatives that do/are holding back reform
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but they're a bunch of *******
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We believe in their god more than they do but they always wanna get on their high horse and play moral and religious authority with us
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Belgium
formerly colombia
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What is wrong with this man?
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/11/devin-nunes-alternative-news-site-402097
Devin Nunes creates his own alternative news site
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/11/devin-nunes-alternative-news-site-402097
Devin Nunes creates his own alternative news site
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I mean when you are a victim of systemic oppression for decades, what do you expect....
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"And the Lord said unto them: 'Thou shalt not abort thine fetuses'" Oh wait.....
Conservatives love to bring up the biblical argument when the bible says nothing on abortion. Also those rates are directly tied to poverty. You (I say "you" because I know you identify as a white conservative) create a system to keep people broke as **** with no options and then chastise them when they dont want to bring a child into that situation? Of course you can say "They should have used birth control" but then you deny them both access and education.
This is what I'm talking about with the high horse BS. Y'all put minorities into this situation and then want to judge them for the actions they take as a response to the situation they've been placed in. Goddamn hypocrisy is what it is.
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this is what you're going with?
k...its called contraception b...condoms? plan B? IUD? shot? patch? options galore...
i highlighted da juxtaposition between that pew poll and abortion rates cuz frankly there's hypocritical rhetoric on both sides, (as seen by latest bipartisan spending bill signed that no one cares about debt at all)
i been following politics long enough to see its all theater for public consumption... not a single Democrat signed da tax bill sighting da deficit, and yet da bipartisan spending bill for 2 years makes w/e hole in da budget that aforementioned bill supposedly creates make it look like a pin prick in comparison...
so sure, da same demographic that claims da most religious conviction, leads da stats in most abortions...da party of smaller government just signed up for more deficit spending..... welcome to politics.
Mr.Guy
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Do Republicans like Black Dominicans?
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which is why you should support efforts like Planned Parenthood, even if they're not perfect, because they're better than the alternatives.
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You're out of touch with your conservative brethren. They don't believe in anything other than abstinence. They don't teach sex Ed in their schools (and don't want it taught), they balk at contraception being covered by health insurance, and they pass laws likening plan B to abortion.
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It's impressive that you've managed to get a degree in spite of your disability.
Selective dyslexia is no joke. I appreciate your posts bringing constant attention to the affliction.
RustyShackleford
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This comment is so asinine, I don't know where to start.this is what you're going with?
its called contraception b...condoms? plan B? IUD? shot? patch? options galore...
i highlighted da juxtaposition between that pew poll and abortion rates cuz frankly there's hypocritical rhetoric on both sides, (as seen by latest bipartisan spending bill signed that no one cares about debt at all)
i been following politics long enough to see its all theater for public consumption... not a single Democrat signed da tax bill sighting da deficit, and yet da bipartisan spending bill for 2 years makes w/e hole in da budget that aforementioned bill supposedly creates make it look like a pin prick in comparison...
so sure, da same demographic that claims da most religious conviction, leads da stats in most abortions...da party of smaller government just signed up for more deficit spending..... welcome to politics.
It is like you consume politicial news, bit comprehend nothing.
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spare me Mr comparing da moral trappings of your political opponents to Osama Bin Laden...
after that comment i wouldn't show my face either.
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Mr.Guy
formerly timidtebow
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This explains why it took him 20 years to get da associates lol
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