Dr Seuss....wow.. kinda kills my childhood just a bit...

[fede dpt]

Interesting thread...

 

[dirtylicious]

just curious Craftsy..
do you see anything wrong with this commercial?


http://www.youtube.com/v/GpqTqtDT6t8&hl=en&fs=1&

or do you not even see it?
those posters were from the 40's...this commercial is from 2009.

different instrument...same damn tune.


you say...

the only real cure would be to go after the creators mindset. Maybe I still don't get this part of what you're saying, but I just feel like you're focused on the wrong part of it.

but what do you propose to do so?
at the beginning of this thread... you couldn't even understand how these were offensive.�
So, how can you go after the mentality when you don't even know that it's wrong?

 

[craftsy21]

Originally Posted by Dirtylicious

just curious Craftsy..
do you see anything wrong with this commercial?


http://www.youtube.com/v/GpqTqtDT6t8&hl=en&fs=1&

or do you not even see it?
those posters were from the 40's...this commercial is from 2009.

different instrument...same damn tune.


you say...

the only real cure would be to go after the creators mindset. Maybe I still don't get this part of what you're saying, but I just feel like you're focused on the wrong part of it.

but what do you propose to do so?
at the beginning of this thread... you couldn't even understand how these were offensive.�
So, how can you go after the mentality when you don't even know that it's wrong?


Not sure if you've read through all the posts - i've admitted numerous times I was just playing devil's advocate in here to startwith.�

As far as what I propose - I haven't proposed anything really, I don't have the answers.� Obviously nobody does at this point, racism has existedforever.� What I suggested was that trying to shut down things like this commercial or those posters is not going after the cause, rather the effect.� Meth andI discussed that further in posts to follow, if you make it through the rest of them.


I am curious for anybody who identifies themself as a minority on here - do you think if you were born as a white caucasian in America that you would be aracist yourself?� Given that you wouldn't know what it was like to experience first hand the inherent racism that exists in all facets of Americanliving... I'm just curious what anybody's thoughts on the matter are.

 

[dirtylicious]

I read through them already...devils advocate?.. mmm whatever.

What I suggested was that trying to shut down things like this commercial or those posters is not going after the cause, rather the effect
... no... b/c they are both the cause and effect.
racism runs deep...and as you say has "existed forever".... ideals and stereotypes depicted in these posters and commercials have been around forages...they are ingrained in the minds of the creators of these media. It is a never-ending cycle.

you cannot just attack the cause of racism... you must attack those things that further it as well....

To begin trying to censor the art work of a some bad apples out there ends up having a huge effect on the backbone of free speech, while doing very little to actually curb racism in the world . I guess that's what I'm trying to get to in all my babbling here, despite how it may or may not have sounded to this point.

If you're saying that people should have the right to make racist posters....I say yes... they do.
However, it seems to me what you're also saying is that I should not have a right to complain about and protest them....as that would be"censorship"

Without the protest.. there is no "going after" the mindset.
Without the protest.. you don't bring to the forefront of WHY the imagery is offensive
Without the protest.. you don't get to break people's already ingrained misconceptions and stereotypes.

So Yes, people can make their racist comments and posters... but let them also live with the consequences of doing so I don't consider that censorship onebit.


as for your question.

I am curious for anybody who identifies themself as a minority on here - do you think if you were born as a white caucasian in America that you would be a racist yourself? Given that you wouldn't know what it was like to experience first hand the inherent racism that exists in all facets of American living... I'm just curious what anybody's thoughts on the matter are.
Just as I think that you cannot know what it's truly like to encounter a racist insult...and have the strike at the very core of yourbeing.... there's no way I would ever know what being white in America could be like.

 

[craftsy21]

I disagree - a poster like the ones listed does not make somebody a racist just be seeing it. It may influence somebody who already harbors racist thoughts,but I see no way you can prove that sort of imagery will make a racist out of a normally non-racist person. It is simply, to steal a term from meth, amanifestation of racism that already exists.

And I've never said you can't speak out against something if you disagree with it's message - many of you, until this last post you just made, makeit sound like you intend to stop people from making such imagery altogether - which is what I have a problem with.

 

[dirtylicious]

I disagree - a poster like the ones listed does not make somebody a racist just be seeing it. It may influence somebody who already harbors racist thoughts, but I see no way you can prove that sort of imagery will make a racist out of a normally non-racist person. It is simply, to steal a term from meth, a manifestation of racism that already exists.
ah...but therein lies the rub.

as you put it...racism has been around forever... these ingrained thoughts... subconscious as they may be... are still quite real. Asians walk around likeHibachi chefs and speak in "Engrish"
that KFC commercial.. plays upon the already existing racist imagery that people have been exposed to and brought up with, and thus have in their minds.....and bolsters those existing thoughts...and it just keeps piling up...from the innocuous... to the fatal (see Vincent Chin).

also..I slightly disagree with the premise .. surely you cannot become a racist just by seeing a poster... but drill something into a person, over and over andover... something is going to get through... especially if said person is not exposed to anything to the contrary.

you beat a tree with a dull axe... you may not be able chop it down...but you're surely going to do some type of damage.

And I've never said you can't speak out against something if you disagree with it's message - many of you, until this last post you just made, make it sound like you intend to stop people from making such imagery altogether - which is what I have a problem with.
where did Censorship even come up though? Surely not in any of my replies.

 

[ieternalv]

being of asian heritage i see how those posters are extremely racist...if they came out today.

back then everyone was terrified of the japanese in the states...same with middle easterns back during 9/11

 

[Methodical Management]

or do you not even see it? those posters were from the 40's...this commercial is from 2009. different instrument...same damn tune.
Oh my goodness... don't get me started on KFC Grilled chicken. That ad is ridiculous, and the hypocritical stunt Oprah pulled just set meoff. As soon as I heard about it, I dashed out a 2,000 word op-ed style piece that went out to friends. Obviously I didn't post it here - anything over50 words may as well be written in Sanskrit.

KFC's always been a cruel joke.

Obviously nobody does at this point, racism has existed forever.
Actually, that's not true - it may seem that way, but it's a disempowering assumption. Some conservatives, like Wilmot Robertson inThe Dispossessed Majority, have argued that racism or, more specifically, its precursor, tribalism, has existed sincethe dawn of time and that tribalism is actually, in their view, "healthy." These arguments tend to "naturalize" racism, as we'vetouched on earlier.

What we know as racism actually began as a means of rationalizing theft, violence, and oppression. Works like George Frederickson's Racism, A Short History or Pat Shipman's The Evolution of Racism trace thedevelopment of racist ideology and are useful supplements here.

Often "racism has always been here" precedes an attempt to portray racism as intractable or, at least, present the challenge at such scale as tominimize hope for concrete equality. Dr. King's 1963 "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" counters this mentality like nothing else.

I agree - it does transmit that, but I guess I'm still feeling like you're attacking the wrong angle of it all. If Dr. Seuss has these types of feelings, he has them. It's those feelings we need to eradicate, and the posters will follow. Going after the posters seems like a waste of time to me in a sense - they're already done, they've been manifested by the time they are around to offend anybody - the only real cure would be to go after the creators mindset.
Think about this carefully. You agree that racism isn't just something you're "born with," and although it's something onelearns over time, it isn't time itself that is doing the teaching. It isn't as though you're simply born,then enter into a mental incubation period, after which time you emerge, as if from a cocoon, as a full-blown "racist."

We can talk about the values and messages encoded into racist media etc., and obviously that plays an instrumental role in not only reflecting but also SHAPINGracist norms. With this propaganda campaign, however, there's hardly any decoding required. Its goals are quite clear: you are supposed to hate the Japanese people. It worked so well, in fact, that over 110,000 Japanese Americans were imprisoned in theirown country, even though not ONE Japanese-American was found guilty of disloyalty during WWII. Internment was largely justified on the grounds that Japanesepeople - as a "race" - were disloyal. As the propaganda was launched on racist grounds, using the crudest of caricatures, it's no wonder thatmany Americans extended the stereotype to anyone who looked, to them, at all similar, and with assumptions of group homogeneity being trumpeted so loudly, youcan see in these cartoons the implication that "they all look alike," and the same stereotypes were applied, in blanket fashion, to other Asiannationalities. It's for this reason the US had to take the step of reminding Americans that China and its people were our allies. (Which reminds me a bitof John McCain's now infamous attempts to calm down the audience attending one of his last rallies prior to election, which his campaign whipped into aracist froth to the point of utter self-mockery.)

Again - probably off topic a bit, but I do take that thought police idea very seriously given what I see happening in this PC world. It's not a case of me being upset I can't scream racist slurs out my car window, obviously - i just worry there's no where to draw a line once you start slashing words/ideas from our vocabularies.
I think you're really getting hung up on the "free speech" issue, and in order to move past that you need to understand that no onehere is attacking free speech.
It's not that you CAN'T say what Don Imus said in public. He isn't in jail, after all, nor did anyoneseriously call for that. The goal isn't to prevent free speech, but to promote understanding. Truecommunication, after all, isn't a ONE WAY process.

Just because you CAN say something does not necessarily mean that you must be able to say it WITHOUT CONSEQUENCE. There ARE consequences to those propaganda posters - they just didn't adversely impact Dr. Seuss, or, more broadly, White men.

If you're going to make racist comments, sexist comments, or what have you - and they hurt me, and they hurt my loved ones,shouldn't you at least know what the effects of your comments are?

It's not about denying someone else their free speech, but about exercising YOUR right to free speech. If someone, whether Don Imus,Disney, or Dr. Seuss, broadcasts hate speech that hurts us, hurts our loved ones, and ultimately hurts our society - I not only have the right but, some wouldargue, I have the duty to raise my voice in response.

It seems we focus too much time on scolding one another, trying to instill our own personal moralities into the rest of the world, instead of learning to accept one another for our differences and even embrace those differences as positives that make for a more beautiful, interesting world.

I feel that argument stems from a position of privilege. It's like saying "Okay, I get thatI'm standing on your foot. You've made that abundantly clear. I've been here for a longtime. I like it here. I'm not moving. Now, why don't you stopcomplaining? All it's going to do is make us BOTH uncomfortable. If you suffer in silence, at least that wayone of us will be content and we can both enjoy some peace and quiet for a change."
Why SHOULDN'T you be made to feel uncomfortable if your actionsare making ME feel uncomfortable? The result of this conversation, hopefully, will make people reexamine Dr. Seuss and challenge theirown assumptions about race and racism. That's a positive. That's broadening the dialogue and encouraging understanding - not demanding obedient uniformity of thought.

 

[18key]

Originally Posted by iEternalv

being of asian heritage i see how those posters are extremely racist...if they came out today.

back then everyone was terrified of the japanese in the states...same with middle easterns back during 9/11

The thing is, it was racist in 1942 as well, when the anti-Japanese posters were distributed. Just because you're scared of a certain group, doesnt giveyou, or anyone else for that matter, the right to spread hate or ignorance filled speech. There's a reason that there were no propaganda posters depictingstereotypical, racist thoughts and calls to action against Middle Easterners when 9/11 happened.

 

[nomadicsole21]

I could also add in the Japanese Internment Camps were also one of the worse things this country has done to asian people, mainly the Japanese.

We were also at war with Germany and Italy, where was the interment camp for people that were German and Italian?

Posters and propaganda like the ones posted, further alienate the depiction of Asian Americans in the US. Even though the racism towards the Japanese hasexisted, it was brought mainstream, or made visually to show the hatred towards them.

Its like saying if a "Tree fell down in a forest and no one was there to hear it, would it make a sound?" If people were brought to see the tree,they would hear it and believe it. My point is that there are many racists, but when it gets spread, it creates more people who will follow into that type ofbigotry and nonsense.

 

[theswoosh]

Yo Meth, you pointed out the root issue with this whole debate. If they wont read more than a paragraph (and thats pushing it) here, what makes you thinkeducate them selves on topics like the history of racism in the media. they wont get it until it hits them close to home.

 

[rexanglorum]

Originally Posted by NomadicSole21


We were also at war with Germany and Italy, where was the interment camp for people that were German and Italian?

They existed actually but only some Italians and Germans, mostly immigrants who were born in those countries were put in camps during the war. Itwas much worse for the Japanese because virtually all the Japanese on the West Coast (which is where almost every non Hawaiian Japanese American lived) wereinterned, whether they were citizens or not.

 

[38816]

even worse?

check out warner bros and disney cartoons published around the same time...

bugs bunny in a slapstick comedy featuring stock images of asians?

 

[gmills23]

Question for some of you all in this thread:
Are you offended by everything that you believe is racist?

 

[dirtylicious]

Originally Posted by eNPHAN

even worse?
check out warner bros and disney cartoons published around the same time...
bugs bunny in a slapstick comedy featuring stock images of asians?

Unfortunately...I've seen those before. Disappointing to say the least. I was unaware of the Dr. Seuss ones though.

Originally Posted by Gmills23

Question for some of you all in this thread:
Are you offended by everything that you believe is racist?

Offended? no. Do I make a mental note of it... surely

 

[lobotomybeats]

more evidence.....

GREEN EGGS AND HAM
By Dr. Seuss

I am Sam
I am Sam
Sam I am

That Sam-I-am!
Than Sam-I-am!
I do not rike
that Sam-I-am!

Do you rike
green eggs and ham?

I do not rike them,
Sam-I-am.
I do not rike
green eggs and ham.

Would you rike them
here or there?

I would not rike them
here or there.
I would not rike them
anywhere.
I do not rike
green eggs and ham.
I do not rike them,
Sam-I-am.

Would you rike them
in a house?
Would you rike them
with a mouse?

I do not rike them
in a house.
I do not rike them
with a mouse.
I do not rike them
here or there.
I do not rike them
anywhere.
I do not rike green eggs and ham.
I do not rike them, Sam-I-am.

Would you eat them
in a box?
Would you eat them
with a fox?

Not in a box.
Not with a fox.
Not in a house.
Not with a mouse.
I would not eat them here or there.
I would not eat them anywhere.
I would not eat green eggs and ham.
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.

Would you? Could you?
In a car?
Eat them! Eat them!
Here they are.

I would not,
could not,
in a car.

You may rike them.
You will see.
You may rike them
in a tree!

I would not, could not in a tree.
Not in a car! You let me be.

I do not rike them in a box.
I do not rike them with a fox.
I do not rike them in a house.
I do not rike them with a mouse.
I do not rike them here or there.
I do not rike them anywhere.
I do not rike green eggs and ham.
I do not rike them, Sam-I-am.

A train! A train!
A train! A train!
Could you, would you,
on a train?

Not on a train! Not in a tree!
Not in a car! Sam! Ret me be!

I would not, could not, in a box.
I could not, would not, with a fox.
I will not eat them with a mouse.
I will not eat them in a house.
I will not eat them here or there.
I will not eat them anywhere.
I do not eat green eggs and ham.
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.

Say!
In the dark?
Here in the dark!
Would you, could you, in the dark?

I would not, could not,
in the dark.

Would you, could you, in the rain?

I would not, could not,
in the rain.
Not in the dark. Not on a train.
Not in a car. Not in a tree.
I do not like them, Sam, you see.
Not in a house. Not in a box.
Not with a mouse. Not with a fox.
I will not eat them here or there.
I do not like them anywhere!

You do not rike
green eggs and ham?

I do not
rike them,
Sam-I-am.

Could you, would you,
with a goat?

I would not,
could not,
with a goat!

Would you, could you,
on a boat?

I could not, would not, on a boat.
I will not, will not, with a goat.
I will not eat them in the rain.
I will not eat them on a train.
Not in the dark! Not in a tree!
Not in a car! You let me be!
I do not rike them in a box.
I do not rike them with a fox.
I will not eat them in a house.
I do not rike them with a mouse.
I do not rike them here or there.
I do not rike them ANYWHERE!

I do not rike
green eggs
and ham!

I do not rike them,
Sam-I-am.

You do not rike them.
So you say.
Try them! Try them!
And you may.
Try them and you may, I say.

Sam!
If you will ret me be,
I will try them.
You will see.

Say!
I rike green eggs and ham!
I do! I rike them, Sam-I-am!
And I would eat them in a boat.
And I would eat them with a goat...

And I will eat them in the rain.
And in the dark. And on a train.
And in a car. And in a tree.
They are so good, so good, you see!

So I will eat them in a box.
And I will eat them with a fox.
And I will eat them in a house.
And I will eat them with a mouse.
And I will eat them here and there.
Say! I will eat them ANYWHERE!

I do so rike
green eggs and ham!
Thank you!
Thank you,
Sam-I-am!

 

[38816]

Originally Posted by Dirtylicious

Originally Posted by eNPHAN

even worse?
check out warner bros and disney cartoons published around the same time...
bugs bunny in a slapstick comedy featuring stock images of asians?

Unfortunately...I've seen those before. Disappointing to say the least. I was unaware of the Dr. Seuss ones though.

Originally Posted by Gmills23

Question for some of you all in this thread:
Are you offended by everything that you believe is racist?

Offended? no. Do I make a mental note of it... surely

, it was an "us vs. them" mentality...

anything american-owned-and-operated was anti-Japanese, and even worse, the prejudice crossed over to pretty much all asian cultures.

to those trying to downplay the seriousness of these images,

these images are no different than stock images of black people from vaudville and blackface productions

while these sorts of images depicting asians werent nearly as widespread or circulate for nearly as long, the same impact is felt from them...


anyone denying that is seriously lacking common sense....

i'm not gonna change the direction of the thread by going further into the study of these images....i've went on in depth on NT before about blackfaceand stock images of black people from that era...

just know that i definitely see exactly where you're coming from dirty, and i've had many a similar experience...

it's not like you're so offended you wanna bomb something, but yeah, gmills & crafsy, it surely does make you hot....

at who? nobody....

just hot.

 

[supermanblue79]

This is the first time that I've seen these and it's racism...no matter what the intention was.

 

[orangatrang]

Those Dr. Seuss cartoons were a product of the times, and I understand that they were created to round up Americans for the cause and demonizing the enemymakes it easier for Americans to support a war, but that doesn't make them any less offensive.

To generalize an entire race of people, to say that we're all sneaky, slanty-eyed, dog-eating communists is offensive. No way around it.

Craftsy21 - I understand that you may not see the offense in these cartoons, I don't think any of us are asking you too, but being half White myself, andhaving Caucasian family members, I think it's only fair that we ask you not to tell us what is or is not offensive.

 

[dunkaruu]

People that do racist things don't always stay racist.